Talk:Murder ballad

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Contents 1 Nick Cave 1.1 Recent Nick Cave overkill? 2 List of murder ballads 3 Removed 11 titles from "The List" 4 Suggest Stagger Lee split 5 Disambiguation message 6 Tom Lehrer song 7 Links to this Topic

[edit] Nick Cave

[T]his needs a disambiguation page VS. the page for the Nick Cave album of the same title. I do not know how to do this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.204.104.165 (talk • contribs)

Yo could create a page titles Murder Ballad (disambiguation). However that is not necessary since the title of the album is different from the title of this article (Murder Ballads v. Murder Ballad). I will put a pointer at the top of both articles, which is customary when there are only two items to be disambiguated. Dsmdgold 14:08, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Recent Nick Cave overkill?

We now have three mentions of Mr. Cave and his album in this article (not to mention his own article). I'm sure he and it are wonderful. But is this a little overweighted? Hult041956 21:00, 26 October 2007 (UTC) (fixed my own errors Hult041956 21:09, 26 October 2007 (UTC) )

[edit] List of murder ballads

The list of murder ballads is probably too long. Since there are no references for the ones that are there, and no clear definition of what is a legitimate murder ballad and what is not, all sorts of songs have been added that might not belong. I think we have to limit the list to songs mentioned in the sources, like Olive Woolley Burt's book, and delete anything else. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the definition of a "murder ballad" pretty intuitive? They are songs about a murderer, a murder, or murders? K. Scott Bailey 15:28, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Unfotunately, that sort of definition would leave the article a bloody mess (if you'll forgive the pun), and make it worthless. I think we have to stick to historical murder ballads of the type defined in the literature. Some mention certainly should be made of contemporary songs and albums that are within the genre, or influenced by same (i.e., Nick Cave's album, etc.), but steer clear of rap, metal, etc., or anything that is not verifiably influenced by the genre. At the same time, I think the article is in need of a rewrite, with actual inline references. One good place to start would be Cecil Brown's book Stagolee Shot Billy, and in-depth analysis of the song "Stagolee" (or "Stagger Lee" or "Stack-a-Lee" etc.), its historical roots, and the continuing influence of its themes in contemporary music. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:14, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree with you. I think that the "ballad" portion of the genre would exclude rap and such from the lists. On a related note, what do you think of my divisions of the current article? It was done quickly (my normal sphere is vandal-fighting, as well as writing an article from time to time), so if you have any better ideas, I'm more than open to suggestions/revisions of my current ideas. K. Scott Bailey 16:17, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I think your reorganizing of the article makes perfect sense. Clearly, someone did some good work on the article once-upon-a-time, because the list of "further reading" is excellent. But, the article seems to have been largely abandoned, and the great majority of recent edits have been to the list of murder ballads. Like other articles, such a list can end up overwhelming everything else, and such lists are generally considered verboten on Wikipedia. If it is on the list, there has to be a clear reason for its existence. In a related matter, the Stagger Lee article has some very useful information, some of which can be used in this article. It, though, is in need of some editorial work as well. Is there, as far as you know, a "Folk music" Wikiproject that this article could, and should, be a part of? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:27, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the folk music thing. Have you tried looking around the various music projects? I have a lot of articles that I monitor strictly to keep them free from vandalism. This article is one that I watch a bit more closely, as I wrote the article for Tom Dula, who was the subject of the murder ballad Tom Dooley. When I get a chance, I'll poke around to see if there's a project in folk music (there almost HAS to be, as there seems to be a project for everything else) into which this article could be placed. K. Scott Bailey 16:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

I already found an answer to my question: Wikiproject Roots Music. It was simple enough, actually, because the Stagger Lee article is part of said project. I am writing to one of the active members of the project right now to see how we can get the current article listed as part of the project. I will probably join the project myself. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 16:47, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Scott, the article looks and reads much better thanks to your reorganizing of it. (Nitpick: I don't care for periods [.] following list items.) About the list: see the chaos that has beset the similar article, Signature song. It's nearly become an anything-goes fan blog. One approach might be to prune off items that have no link, artist, or other hint of their notability. BTW, I suspect that Flora (added recently) was meant to be, Flora, Lily of the West. Hult041956 16:44, 26 October 2007 (UTC) (oops, fixed my own itals Hult041956 16:46, 26 October 2007 (UTC))

Thanks for the compliment! As for the periods in the list, removing them is no big deal. I simply formatted the list into columns, and added sections to the article. I had no part in the actual writing of the list. K. Scott Bailey 16:50, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed 11 titles from "The List"

With the good faith additions of another editor adding 3, a net loss of 8 titles results. I basically just removed all titles that weren't either sourced or wikified. Hopefully, we can begin paring down the list to a more manageable length. K. Scott Bailey 18:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Looks good. As the other editor included some Woody Guthrie songs, I'm definitely good with that. After you, I made a couple more fixes. We're making good progress. Hult041956 21:12, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggest Stagger Lee split

I know this is the wrong place for this, but I'd appreciate your comments. I'm inclined to split Stagger Lee into "the person & the crime" and "the song". I posted this at Talk:Stagger Lee but haven't received any response. Hult041956 21:18, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

That actually might not be a bad idea. I will have to take a look at the article again to see if there is enough information to justify the split. Certainly, potentially, there could be two good articles on the subject, I simply do not know if the article in its current state justifys it. Good call, though, Hult041956. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:22, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disambiguation message

I removed the following from the dab message at the top of the article:

Murder Ballads is also the title of a book of poetry (2005) by Jake Adam York.

Neither the book nor the author have a Wikipedia article currently, and if there are multiple articles (i.e., book or album titles, etc.) with the same title, there should be a separate dab page. That does not seem necessary at this point. If someone creates an article about York and/or his book, we can revisit the issue. I somehow doubt, though, that anyone came to the current article thinking the were going to find Mr. York's book of poetry. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Lehrer song

The list of murder ballads includes, The Irish Ballad by Tom Lehrer. This song is actually an amusing parody of murder ballads. Do people think that fits here? Hult041956 17:02, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... that's a poser, isn't it? It's a good song, but I would have to say it is really not appropriate for the list. A short subsection might be appropriate somewhere to talk about "modern" or "contemporary" murder ballads, which could include a discussion of parodies. What do you think? ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 17:10, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Links to this Topic

The page for "The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia" references this topic, but the song is not on this list.

Either it should be (re)added, or the reference should be removed. That goes for any others that have been removed from this list.

P.S. Janie's Got a Gun? --- WhiteGoldWielder 22:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I would argue that this song is not a murder ballad, per se, in the sense that we have been discussing here on this talk page, i.e., it is not a "classic" murder ballad, more of a contemporary gloss on the age old themes. The link should be left in the "The Night the Lights Went Out in Georgia" article, and the song should be mentioned, along with several other notable modern songs, in a section on contemporary murder ballads. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 15:27, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Something is missing or is not clear in a definition if “correct” examples cannot be determined. What defines a classic murder ballad? Age? If so, what year is the cutoff for true murder ballads? Style? If so, what are the particulars of style that modern ballads do not imitate? What is it about modern songs that prevent them from being labeled as murder ballads? What am I not getting?

I mean, the whole point of Wiki is to sort these things out once and for all. It is never the reader, but the definition that is lacking. --- WhiteGoldWielder 22:26, 6 November 2007 (UTC)