Talk:Munich air disaster

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To-do list for Munich air disaster:	edit · history · watch · refresh
Background - a bit of info about why they were there After the crash - Duncan Edwards' death 15 days later, Matt Busby's recovery Survivors going back into the plane to rescue those who were trapped United refusing to use charter aircraft again Resuming matches with Jimmy Murphy in charge while SMB recovered

Please help improve this article or section by expanding it. Further information might be found on the talk page or at requests for expansion. (January 2007)

This article's URL is given in todays issue of the magazine "This is Lancashire"

Contents 1 Minor Edit 2 Move page to correspond with precedent? 2.1 Discussion 2.2 Survey 3 Fair use rationale for Image:Airspeed Ambassador G-ALZU Burning At Munich 1958.jpg 4 Fair use rationale for Image:Airspeed Ambassador G-ALZU At Munich Before Accident.jpg 5 The science behind the crash

[edit] Minor Edit

Just removed "This has also been recorded by Hanky Park http://www.hankypark.co.uk". Obvious advertising, inapropirate on a page as sensative as this.

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Perhaps someone ought to add Captain Thain's prosecution by the German authorities which rumbled on for nearly a decade after the disaster. Dbiv 14:20, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

What areas need expansion I will do it.

I have changed the opening para under 'Cause' to reflect that Thain aborted the first two takeoff attempts due to boost surging, not the weather. Quite an important fact to get right! John

Just a bit of extra info:

The boost surging was a problem with the early Centaurus installation on the Ambassador in which under some conditions the mixture to some cylinders became over-rich leading to a momentary slight drop in power. This was made worse with increasing altitude where the air is thinner and Munich-Riem was (and presumably still is!) at 1,700 ft. Because of this, Thain had to use rather more of the runway than normal and although the runway had been cleared of snow to some extent by previous aircraft landing and taking off, only on the mid section. The surging caused Thain to run into the area of raw, deep slush towards the end of the runway which slowed the aircraft at the critical moment when it was too late to abort the take off, and making it impossible to fly-off due to the lack of airspeed. The Ambassador subsequently ran off the runway a short distance before hitting first a fence and then the house of a Mr Berger, which took off the port wing.

BTW, there was a drama-doc on the Munich Air Distaster on BBC 1 about an hour ago. I managed to sit through a few minutes of it and decided to give it a miss! Ian Dunster 23:26, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

The drama last night could have been very good had it not been for some ignorance in the writing.

I do think it is a good idea to create a film depicting the TRUE events. This would require excessive help from the survivors and an entirely BRITISH cast. No ridiculous effects or Hollywood nonsense. And should be released only when EVERYTHING has been accurately portrayed according to the survivors' accounts. All cast must research thoroughly and read about the lives of their characters.

It is important for people to understand the tragedy and never forget it. Shaneo619 13:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The documentary did seem a bit 'overdone', the banter just seemed wrong, however, I notice it did mention that someone had taken pictures of people on the fuselage of the Ambassador which seemed to nullify the claims against Captain Thain. Douglasnicol 21:33, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move page to correspond with precedent?

Hello there! I am working on converting the plane crash articles to conform to the longstanding Wikipedia precedent that the named format is <airline> <flight num>. For example, I would normally just go ahead and rename this article to British European Airways Flight BE609. But, looking at the page history, I see someone has already done that and been reverted? May I ask way?

If there is a big reason to keep the Munich air disaster title, I would like to hear it -- otherwise, I intend to change this article to conform to precedent. Thanks! --Jaysweet 21:38, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

IMHO, it should be renamed. As WP grows ever larger, standardization is essential and contributes to a professional appearance. Akradecki 22:30, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey there Akradecki, I believe I remember that name from the AfD for the Rochester air crash, where I promised to make a similar name change when the AfD ends ;) Sounds like we are very like-minded on this issue! The process is frustrating, as it turns out many of the non-standard articles are like that because the flight number is unavailable. But, slowly I am chipping away...

Since this one here was changed and reverted once before, I'm going to wait until tomorrow before moving it, in order to give people a chance to weigh in. I don't want to prematurely start a revert war ;) --Jaysweet 23:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Hrm, it appears because the redirect has a page history, I can't do the move without an admin's assistance. I just put in the request, but it looks like they have a 10-day backlog on move requests. Might be a while... heh... --Jaysweet 19:51, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

"Google test" results are worth noting:

Results 1 - 10 of about 34,700 for "Munich air disaster".
Results 1 - 10 of about 58 for "British European Airways Flight BE609".

--Serge 06:20, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

• Strong Oppose The Munich air disaster is a historic tragedy in football, and is commemorated under that name, not only on plaques in Manchester and Munich, but also on various commemorative sites [1]. A Gogle search for "Munich air disaster" creates 35,500 hits, a search for "British European Airways Flight BE609" gives 58. Similarly, a Newsbank search for "Munich air disaster" gives 842 hits, and zero for "British European Airways Flight BE609". And finally, a headline-only search for European news sources on Lexus-Nexus gives 37 for "Munich air disaster", and zero for "British European Airways Flight BE609". This is a standing historical term, and renaming it would be akin to renaming the Hand of God goal to "1-0, 1986 FIFA World Cup quarterfinal Argentina-England". ~ trialsanderrors 04:48, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Oppose. Adhering to naming conventions that produce contrived titles with names that are rarely if ever (see google test results above) used to refer to the subject of the article should never take precendence over titles that are consistent with WP:NC(CN). --Serge 06:15, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment Yikes!!! 8o I don't feel that strongly about it, so I'm considering withdrawing the move request. --Jaysweet 15:39, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

Comment Although, I have to say, I'm sort of glad I brought it up -- the first time the move was reverted, no explanation was given. Now we have a documented reason on the Talk page why this article defies the standard convention. Actually, I'm satisifed with that. Withdrawing the request now...

I have relinked "Munich air disaster" to this page in view of above discussion, The Munich air disaster is synonymous with this incident: the 1960 accident is not the Munich air disaster. I will be inserting a link to that accident on main page in a few minutes. ta--Bilbo B 10:49, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Airspeed Ambassador G-ALZU Burning At Munich 1958.jpg

Image:Airspeed Ambassador G-ALZU Burning At Munich 1958.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 02:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Airspeed Ambassador G-ALZU At Munich Before Accident.jpg

Image:Airspeed Ambassador G-ALZU At Munich Before Accident.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 02:22, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The science behind the crash

It is not mentioned anywhere in the article that the real cause of the crash (which was not realised at the time) is that the drag from the slush increases by the square of the speed. Thus 4x faster = 16x more drag. This is the real reason that G-ALZU failed to become airborne. With the 50th anniversary coming up, this article is likely to feature on the "on this day" section. Mjroots (talk) 13:48, 2 February 2008 (UTC)