Talk:Munich

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Contents

[edit] Scattered sentences

At certain points, the article briefly loses focus, lapsing into dead-end sentences and strange tangents - for example, a one-sentence invocation of the Night of the Long Knives, and a passing comment about the swastika. 71.196.193.154 11:36, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Exaggeration?

Did Munich really grow at an alarming rate? Who was alarmed? - Leidolf

[edit] The Name

Munich is the proper name of this city. Lir 00:09 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Yes it is, in English. "München" is the proper name of the city in German. --Brion 00:35 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Brion-that is the name of the city. Munich is not the name of the city in English. It is not an English city.

Well, Lir, I suggest you move the Beijing article were it belongs. With the proper chinese Unicode characters, please. And, of course, replace each appearance of "Beijing" in the text by the same chinese characters. Otherwise people might believe "Beijing" is the proper name of the city in english -- no, 北京 is the proper way to name the city in any english text. FvdP
And make sure you pronounce it with the correct tones, or else you're spitting your toxic Anglo-americentric neocolonialism in the collective face of a billion 中国人. --Brion 00:47 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice-I will be sure to update the Chinese article as well. I am glad we are all in agreement. Lir 00:52 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)

As long as we're in agreement about which of us are kidding. ;) --Brion 00:53 Oct 23, 2002 (UTC)
Somehow I don't think she's kidding.David de Paoli

Can I just say that Wikipedia invites that sort of complaint. München ought to be listed under Munich, Köln (is the accent right?) under Cologne and Roma under Rome. But Beijing or 北京 ought be called Peking (regardless of what the Chinese government wants), and Madras, Bombay and Calcutta used for those cities. Why the inconsistency? Avalon 06:48, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

"Peking" is no more valid a name for Beijing than "Beijing" is - they're both transliterations. "Peking" is four hundred years out of date, however, and no one says that any more unless they're talking about the duck. The rule is to use English, and "Beijing" is the accepted name for those cities in English. As for Madras, Bombay, Calcutta, and so on (it's not confined to India, either - Kiev and Turin come to mind), well, that's a perennially open question, and one that's definitely open for debate on the appropriate talk pages. However, the big difference there is that Germany has never asked the world community to start calling Munich "München", while India has specifically said "please call Madras 'Chennai' from now on." The Germans, as far as I know, are quite happy with it being called Munich. Indeed, I'm sure that Germans would be appalled to hear the million horrible pronunciations of "München" Anglophones would promptly inflict on the world if they were foolish enough to rename the city. ("Have you ever been to ['mʌnʧən]?" "Oh, yeah, ['munhɛn], beautiful city.") 69.140.12.199 08:38, 15 March 2006 (UTC)

Didn't the Wittelsbach family take over control of the city from the bishops of Freising, as opposed to the "Freising family?" --User:JohnWebber

Yes, this doesn't seem right. I have corrected it, and clarified a few things according to http://www.muenchen.de/referat/direktorium/stadtarchiv/stadtgeschichte/mittelalter.htm . I also cut out the "alarm".


Munich was not Hitler's Hometown. He was Austrian. Chris G.

By longstanding convention, when writing an English language article about this city, its name is Munich. When writing a German language article, its name is Munchen. 130.13.4.241 (talk) 13:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.4.241 (talk) 13:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of Beijing, someone ought to find out and document what the "anglophonic" origin of "munich" is all about. Who started calling it "munich" in English, why and when? Hence Jewish Anderstein (talk) 13:24, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipdia naming convention

If a Polish city of Gdansk has a German name bolded: Danzig; so Munich can also have a Polish name bolded: Monachium.

Any coment on compromise:

Mestwin of Gdansk 00:51, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I would agree with you if Munich had any history of polish settlement,alas it hasn't. A moot point. Count Uebles (talk) 23:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Danzig is bolded due to the naming change in use (formerly Danzig, now G'Dansk) - Monachium is nothing more than Munich translated. There is a difference. And FYI G'dansk is still known as "Danzig" in the German world. Rarelibra (talk) 20:23, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Retaliation action for blocking Gdansk and Szczecin

Please don't call it vandalism because this wouldn't be very polite. This is a retaliation action is response to blocking editing in Gdansk and Szczecin. The goal of this action is just to enter in edit war, block editing, and make the Germans angry. I am very sorry for any inconveniences. Don't blame me. Blame User:Nico. I will stop these actions as soon as Gdansk and/or Szczecin are released. - Mestwin of Gdansk 02:08, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)

[edit] corrections

"The Olympiaturm recalls the Munich massacre, which occurred at the 1972 Summer Olympics held in Munich..."

This cannot be correct: The Olympiaturm was built for the Olympics, so it was completed before the massacre.

"The 1974 Soccer World Cup was also held in the city."

The World Cup took place in various German cities and only some matches (including, I think, the finale) were in Munich.

Fallwein 14:10, 6 May 2004 (UTC)


[edit] corrections

"The Frauenkirche's towers (109 meters or 358 feet tall) are also the measurement for a new rule which limits the height of new buildings to the same height"

109 meters is the length of the church; the towers are 99 meters resp. 100 meters tall. See also http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frauenkirche_%28M%C3%BCnchen%29

"The Olympiaturm (Olympic Tower) (...) was built for the 1972 Summer Olympics which were held in Munich."

This is not correct. The tower was planned and built for broadcasting and telecommunication purposes ("Fernsehturm"); construction started in 1965, one year before anyone thought of Olympic Games in Munich. After Munich was declared the site of the 1972 Olympic Summer Games, the growing tower became part of the "Olympiagelände" (Olympic Park) and was renamed "Olympiaturm". The tower was finished in 1968.

Source: "München. Heimat und Weltstadt." Munich, 1982, page 153 f.

"Despite its name, Oktoberfest actually begins in September. It lasts two weeks and always finishes on the first Sunday in October."

Nitpicking: except in years when the "Tag der Deutschen Einheit" (German National Holyday) Oct 3rd is a monday (like this year) - then the Oktoberfest lasts one day longer.

Franz X. Fackler, Munich, Germany 28 August 2005

[edit] History of the name

I'm not sure that I might miss something from the main page. But I could not find what's the reason that "München" became "Munich" not "Munchen"--manop 09:42, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Most likely adopted from French, like so many European geographic names. Not sure about the French etymology though. Pardon my French, but it could have some phonetic reasons ;-) Jbetak 11:32, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
Thank you --manop 20:58, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sports Clubs

Why is Unterhaching listed as one of Munich's sports clubs. It's simply not one of them. Do you also want to list clubs of other cities in the vicinity of Munich (such as Dachau, Fuerstenfeldbruck, Puchheim, Gauting, etc.)? I think it should be removed.


I agree with that. As Unterhaching is not a part of Munich, the SpVgg should be removed from the list of the sport clubs.

[edit] Modern Munich

I tried to correct the English in the description of "modern Munich" (skyscrapers expelled outside the inner city???) but I think this paragraph could be fleshed out a bit. I would like to see some mention somewhere of the modern building that was attached to the ruins of the war museum. When I was a student in Munich in the mid-Seventies I thought this was the most moving memorial I had ever seen, and I think what they've done to it since then (adding modern wings to it to make it some kind of government building) is an abomination. IP129.55.27.4 15:58, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

I have expanded the paragraph a bit and have hopefully clarified what was meant with skyscrapers being expelled, but I agree that the section could still do with some more information. The new Staatskanzlei which you mention probably even deserves an article of its own since the building has a pretty interesting history and the building of the two additional wings was (mildly put) controversial; I'll see what I can do over the next couple of days, but I won't mind if someone else jumps in :) -- Ferkelparade π 16:31, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for you additions. I'm not sure that Munich has any "skyscrapers" however (none come to mind when I think of Munich). According to what I am reading on wikipedia, the Frauenkirche is the tallest building in Munich, and it's not tall enough to be considered a "skyscraper". IP129.55.27.4 21:10, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

The tallest buildings are the de:Highlight Towers. They are 126 m tall, according to skyscraper this does not make them skyscrapers. In fact the Olympiaturm is with 291 m the tallest building, but it doesn't qualify as a skyscraper either. Markus Schmaus 22:11, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
Actually, the highest building is Uptown Munich at 146m, but it also barely fails the skyscraper requirements...I'll change all occurrences of "skyscraper" to "high-rise building" -- Ferkelparade π 14:02, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin

The first paragraph describing the origins of Munich is confusing. This guy Henry founded the city, but he didn't, but the village developed around the bridge that he built, after he destroyed the other bridge, etc. etc. Why not just say something like "Munich was an early roman village on the Isar dating from as early as 123 AD (or whatever) at a point where the river was easy to cross..."? IP129.55.27.4 13:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Because it would be factually incorrect to say that :) While there are traces of settlements going back to the neolithic and there were some smallish Roman villages on the area that is now occupied by the city of Munich, the city proper was founded by Henry the Lion. I agree, however, that the paragraph is not exactly brilliant prose and sounds quite confusing...I'll try to think of a way to rephrase it -- Ferkelparade π 14:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

I would revise it myself if I knew anything about the topic. :-). I would try to find a more common word than "spoilation". Stylistically the entire article tends to suffer from overuse of the passive voice as well as some peculiar diction (e.g. "before the 8th-century monks were putting the St.Peter church on the map."). It's hard to explain how odd some passages sound, although they make for interesting reading. :-) IP129.55.27.4 16:14, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Enough Already"

In English, the word "already" is not used as often or in the same way that the word "schon" is used in German, except by those whose native language is Yiddish (as in the expression "enough already"). It actually sounds comical to see it used in English sentences composed by Germans. I mention this purely for the benefit of those who would want to improve their English composition skills. :-) 129.55.27.4 16:43, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A rising of the guilds in 1397 was thrown down the following years.

That sentence does not make much sense to me. I'd say either "the following year" or "in the following years" - but I lack access to historical info to choose between those options. Agathoclea 15:17, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Climate - this section needs re-writing

The section on climate seems vague and self-contradictory. For example - "because of the distance to the sea . . . precipitation is rather high" What does this mean ? Is it suggested that Munich is close to the sea ? In which case I would suggest this is not true - I estimate Munich is about 300km from the Adriatic - many large cities in Germany and the rest of Europe are much closer to the sea. Or alternatively, is it suggested that Munich is far from the sea ? If so, why should this great distance lead to high precipitation ? The next sentence - "Rain storms often come violently and unexpectedly" is vague and could be truthfully said about many places in Europe. The rest of the section is similar. I suggest that unless we can add more detailed information, and quote sources, then we should delete this section completely. In its current form it provides practically no useful information. Anyone agree / disagree ? GeraldH 08:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Föhn needs mentioning, as it is a unique feature. Agathoclea 09:42, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree on both points. It certainly rains a lot in Munich, but why that is exactly I don't know. I think I'll check to see what Wikipedia says about the climate in Seattle... I've also looked at the German Wikipedia article. I think the Fohn needs a lot more description. Although it has its own wikipedia article, the Fohn in Munich is a really big deal. JoppaFlats 20:46, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pronunciation Sound File Error

Is it me, or does the German pronunciation of "München" in the .ogg sound file sound a bit inaccurate? Take a listen.

The pronunciation sounds okay to me (native german speaker). It might be a little confusing because the german pronunciation is quite different from the english one. Cinnamon42 19:01, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject Munich

I've created WikiProject Munich. Anyone interested can go to the linked page and sign up. Kingjeff 16:05, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Famous people born in Munich

I created and after a while deleted an entry for the "Mad King" Ludwig II since the place of his birth was not a part of Munich at the time of his life. Maybe it should be added despite this fact for the Nymphenburg castle is in Munich today and an interesting place for tourists to visit. Comments, please. --Einemnet 20:23, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Houses of worship

A mosque is planned not too far from the city center on a vacant lot used now as a parking lot and directly face to face with a catholic church (St. Korbinian at Gotzinger Platz, borough of Sendling). This would be the first "real" mosque inside Munich and is a controversial topic. This is an important fact since the new synagogue just opened. Should this article about the Mosque in Sendling not be integrated here?

[edit] Flags

Deleted flags as per this diff, this article WP:FLAGS, this debate, and this admin. One down, umpteen thousand to go. Pedro |  Talk  20:59, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Why have flags when they're not going to be used? Kingjeff 22:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calling Fröttmaning a suburb

Under Olympic Park and Allianz Arena, Fröttmaning is described as a "northern suburb." I realize that in some usage, outer parts of cities can be called suburbs, but I think in American usage, suburb implies a separate city, which Fröttmaning is not. See Etymology on Suburb. I think the article would be clearer with different wording, but I can't think of a good English word for Stadtteil. Neighborhood? Quarter? It's not a Borough, as it is part of the Borough of Schwabing-Freimann --Pete 10:02, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, so this discussion page (and associated article) indicate that Bezirk should be translated as Borough, while Stadtteil should be translated locality if it is not equivalent to a Bezirk. This is the usage on the Berlin article, so I'll start using it until I hear otherwise. --Pete 13:23, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not aware of the connotation you associate with suburb - as far as I'm concerned, this term fits well. Also note that Fröttmaning does have a Bezirksrat, and hence some political autonomy. Alternatively, the standard translation for "Stadtteil" would be "quarter" (even if there are more than 4 ;-). --Stephan Schulz 14:09, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
The connotation of suburb I'm concerned about is that suburb to me usually means a separate city or town. Fröttmaning is part of the city of Munich, so using the term suburb isn't clear. I just polled a few American friends over IM and they generally think of a location outside the city when they hear suburb out of context. Since it's not unheard of for a sports stadium to be outside the city proper (The Washington Redskins play in Maryland, the New York Giants play in New Jersey), I think it would just be clearer if a word was used that clearly indicated the Stadium was still inside the city. It's not a big deal, I'm just bored on a Saturday. :-) --Pete 16:17, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, I wouldn't call the stadium to be "inside the city". The old Olymic Stadium is, sure, but the new one is rather far outside the city proper (while legaly on ground belonging to the city of Munich). It also stands fairly isolated, with not much beyond the subway station and the garbage disposal works closeby. --Stephan Schulz 16:27, 10 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] MVV/MVG

I just reverted an edit from an anonymous user who exchanged MVV with MVG. That is not correct, both organisations exist, here is their statement:

  • MVV: The MVV (Munich Transport and Tariff Association) is a transport association that ensures regional public transport (ÖPNV) is convenient and easy to use. There is only one timetable. You can travel throughout the entire association network with only one ticket and you pay according to the same tariff system, irrespective of how many transport companies’ services you use.
  • MVG: The Munich Verkehrsgesellschaft (MVG) has played, and still plays, an important role in this story of success as the operator of the Underground, buses and trams. (...) The MVG as a strong partner in the Munich Verkehrs- and Tarifverbund (MVV) has grown into every nook and cranny of Munich. Without MVG and its one million-plus passengers the famous style of the city on the Isar would not be what it is. And so should it stay.

That's something many people in Munich also confuse, but both citations tell the same story. Einemnet 14:16, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Modern Munich - tower referendum

The part about the referendum and newly planned office towers is less than optimal... a german article about the topic is at sueddeutsche.de, the new building (german project description) of the newspaper's publishing house will have 28 floors instead of 39 as planned initially. Plans for other office towers were also affected by this referendum, namely SIEMENS stopped their project but that was also due to the overall bad market situation for office buildings. The referendum couldn't stop other towers already in construction (two towers at Donnersberger Brücke, one tower close to the Olympic stadium, one other at the end of Leopoldstrasse). At least one of these buildings had no single paying hirer for years. I don't know their actual height but can find that out if neccessary. Background of the referendum: some people just don't want other buildings to be built higher than the cathedral (99 meters). Munich already had this restriction of 100 meters but only for new buildings inside the old fortification. Now this also affects planning in the outskirts. Bit long, isn't it? Not sure how that could fit in one or two sentences. IMHO the whole topic just gives everyone a picture of how small people are thinking in Munich. So, who has an idea how that section can be optimised? --Einemnet 16:16, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA failed

I have reviewed this article according to the GA criteria and have failed the article at this time mainly for a lack of citations. There are a few footnotes, but many sections are lacking inline citations. Go through the article and make sure to add inline citations to any statements that may be questioned about their verifiability. The great thing about this article is that it is very broad, as you have covered a large variety of topics associated with the city. Consider getting a peer review to help you get some feedback on how to further improve the article. Once you have added more sources, please look over the rest of the criteria to see if the article is ready to be nominated again. If you disagree with this review, then you can seek an alternate opinion at Wikipedia:Good article review. If you have any questions about this review, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 19:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Munich's Peer Review

Main article: Wikipedia:Peer review/Munich/archive1

A peer review was done and I think we should go through with it. I've already started. Kingjeff 19:47, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Linux

There is nothing about Munich Council adopting Linux software. At the time this made for a lot of comment. [1]--Aspro 15:05, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] BMW Tower "built from the top to the bottom" ??

Per the article about the tower, I think the caption for the BMW tower is false.

The building's page says that "During the construction, individual floors were assembled on the ground and then elevated", which clearly is bottom up, since each new floor was placed on top of the previous floor.

I found text matching the caption here, but it's based on this article.

Hope nobody gets mad, but I'm removing the text.


65.169.210.66 20:24, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

The exact wording might only appear on wikipedia in English but the process is rather well explained in the German counterpart of the article. It was built top to bottom in the sense that floors where hoisted up to be suspended underneath the next floor up. As far as the term bowl is concerned is apparently is nicknamed Salatschüssel or Weißwurstkessel both meaning bowl/pot. Agathoclea 21:15, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Boroughs of Munich article

The boroughs of Munich article must be merged with the subdivisions section of this article since the section is not explained thoroughly. It only says there that there are 25 boroughs comprising Munich without information what are these boroughs. Any additional short information about these boroughs can be helpful for readers; however, do not expound on those info. -Pika ten10 (talk) 06:03, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

But I think this would only require a partial merger. If the whole thing is mergered, then the Boroughs of Munich should be a redirect to that section in the Munich article. Kingjeff (talk) 21:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm against a complete merger. Keeping the other article boroughs of Munich makes sense since the list of the older division is far too long for a section in the Munich article. This older division is important for historical reasons and I'm sure this will be expanded soon enough: Munich celebrates a "birthday" in 2008. Pika ten10, can you give us a reason why there is a must to merge both articles? --Einemnet (talk) 13:13, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm also against a merger. It is often the cases that city articles become too long and therefore sections must be given their own articles. This is taking a backwards step. Welshleprechaun (talk) 16:48, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Austro-Bavarian: Minga"

I've never heard "Minga" and I live in Munich (and speak Bavarian)... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.154.21.189 (talk) 09:48, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

I live in Munich and while one rarely hears "Minga" in the city itself, in surrounding areas the use of "Minga" is quite common. In Regensburg a common expression is, Hoaste puivah? Fahr'ma na' Minga ("Hast du Pulver? Fahren wir nach München" -- where Pulver (powder) is archaic regional slang for Geld/money). BadDoggie (talk) 11:18, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler Did Not "Take" Power; It was Given to Him by Hindenburg

The article contains the comment, "The city would once again become a Nazi stronghold when the Nazis took power in Germany in 1933."

The phrase "took power" is wrong, as that suggests or implies some sort of forcible change of government. Hitler was appointed Chancellor by President Paul von Hindenburg. It was all done quite legally and according to "the rule of law," pursuant to the Constitution and laws of the Weimar Republic. 130.13.4.241 (talk) 13:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)John Paul Parks130.13.4.241 (talk) 13:42, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Breze aka Bretzel, Brez'n etc.

According to the "Bayerisches Kochbuch" (ISBN 3-920105-01-X) the term Brezel (Brezeln is the plural form) is correct. This cookbook also mentions Wurstsalat instead of the fantasy term Wurschtsalat. Auszogene is imho the right term, let's avoid Deppen-Bayerisch here, see this sueddeutsche.de article (in German). I reverted an edit and have a look at the complete section. --Einemnet (talk) 12:24, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gamma World City?

Should this "Gamma World City" concept be in the introductory paragraph?

It seems to be presenting an obscure, subjective, and advocatory (of globalism) concept developed by some random scholar as if it were vital, standard information everyone should know about a place.

It looks like this is violating both advocacy and neutral point of view principals of Wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.36.155.15 (talk) 09:30, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Freddie Mercury, Resident??

I always thought of a resident as somebody who lives in an area at present - to this end, Freddie Mercury can't be a resident, because he's dead (unless he is buried in Munich, which I'm not sure if he was). The term 'resident' implies he is there at the moment, and its a little misleading. I assume I've misunderstood this. TheMoridian 20:56, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the list includes past and present residence. Kingjeff (talk) 14:27, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Kingjeff is right, and this is actually mostly a list of past (and passed away) residents: Thomas Mann, Lenin, Hitler, Stuck, Wagner, Lola Montez... Moridian, please just follow the links and read about those persons! --Einemnet (talk) 21:28, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Twin cities

Munich has seven twin cities: Bordeaux, Cincinnati, Edinburgh, Harare, Kiew, Sapporo, Verona - --Einemnet (talk) 16:36, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Motto

München mag dich — "Munich loves you" — or is it "Munich likes you" — ??

Sca (talk) 19:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)