Talk:Munich (film)

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I dont know where i should write this so ill write it at the start. i saw Munich at the cinema when it first came out and it showed a scene where commandoes assaulted the Black September terrorists in the helicopters and the terrorists were about to die so they killed all the hostages. right now im watchin the Munich DVD i rented from video ezy yesterday and that whole scene has been taken out. it is implied in the version im watching that the terrorists cold bloodedly murdered their victims without reason. am i to presume that the crazy zioists behind "The Zionist Protocols" talked to Spielberg and cut that scene out of the DVD edition? or did civil libertarians do it? because i distinctly remember a scene in the cinema where armed soldiers moved in on the helicopters and the semi-reasonable PLO operatives were given little choice but to finish off the hostages before they were killed.Rampaging 18:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

i repeal my mention of the zionist protocols as i know them to be fiction. however i still wonder why the MA 15+ (in Australia) DVD from Video Ezy has a scene missing from the beginning of the cineam version of the movie (also MA 15+ Australia) where the last living PLO operative on one of the helicopters sprayed his SMG at the hostages on the helicopter, killing them all. while this scene may be interpreted as anti-israeli, i think it is important seeing as the Israeli's have severely wronged the Palestinians in the past.

the following is philosophical discussion by me, user: rampaging : while the PLO and more recently, Hamas attacks with suicide bombers against civilians have been despicable, most of the original stated aims of the PLO were totally reasonable, the israelies DID in fact attack innocent palestinians and bulldoze many homes. the original borders of israel were expanded to the west bank and the Gaza strip to allow the israeli defence force to defend israel from good geographically defensible positions. however, this border expansion caused the dislocation of many palestinians, the same fate that many Jews, reasonably, complained about after WW2. however, because the PLO was fast to attack civilians, international media was against them from the start.Rampaging 18:34, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Completely ridiculous

I see that mention of the Lillehammer affair has been previously removed, but frankly I am shocked and amazed that this article contains no mention of the fact that Spielberg completely glossed over this event. User:Wodan seems to think that this incident is "irrelevant" but it is hardly so. The murder of Ahmed Bouchiki was part of Operation Wrath of God and for Spielberg to gloss over the fact that his oh-so-complex Mossad killers happened to shoot an innocent man in cold blood, having misidentified their target, is a very politically loaded action. The Lillehammer affair was an enormous embarrassment for Israel, and including it in the movie would have ruined the sense of "balance" he was trying to achieve and result in even more condemnation from the far-right Zionists who hated this movie for daring to suggest that Palestinians bleed the same color as Israelis. However that doesn't mean that it isn't relevant for the article. I think people coming to Wikipedia to learn about this movie should know that Spielberg left out a very important part of it. The hunt for Ali Hassan Salameh, whom they were trying to kill when they murdered this waiter, is a huge part of the movie, so I'm kind of confused as to how people think that it isn't worth mentioning that Spielberg glossed over the fact that they shot a waiter they thought was him. Unless anyone can give me a really convincing reason why not, I'm adding to the Criticism section a mention in the Guardian of a BBC documentary that criticizes the movie for not mentioning Lillehammer.Iamblessed (talk) 23:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Do we have a source showing that Jonas does not stand by his book? SlimVirgin ^(talk) 12:04, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

That he talks about it on his website [1] suggests he still stands by it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 12:22, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

Slim -- Jonas, who may be an innocent dupe, is quoted in many sources as stating that “certain details of the story were incapable of being verified.” He sued Aviv over HBO royalties, in 1989 I believe.

Please sign your posts. See Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages.

Hi, that's not the same as saying he doesn't stand by it. He clearly does stand by it, but acknowledges that not everything could be independently verified. I'm not saying I believe it, by the way, or disbelieve it; I'm just concerned that we should be accurate. Also, he seems to spell his name with a J so we should do the same. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 10:48, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Why is the phrase "It is NOT partially based on "Vengeance" -- it is entirely based on it" at the top of this page? Every professional news article mentions that the filmmakers claim it has multiple sources. Just because one source is more prominent than the others, does not mean there weren't others.--Mr. Cool 01:35, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

In the controversy section, there is the following phrase: "In a Time Magazine cover story about the film on December 4, 2005, Spielberg confirmed that Aviv is the source of the film and that he (Aviv) had second thoughts about his actions." The Time article does not mention Juval Aviv and in fact includes the following phrase: "The moviemakers would not reveal the identity of the real Avner, whom they talked to at length during their research." It is factually incorrect to state that the filmmakers are on the record confirming Aviv as a source.--Mr. Cool 01:13, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

It is NOT partially based on "Vengeance" -- it is entirely based on it. Not one other source has been identified.

Actually, Spielberg says that it is partially based on interviews with the source. Even if Vengeance and Munich have the same source, it isn't entirely based on the former. (talk to) Caroline Sanford 21:19, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I read the book. The movie deviates somewhat IMHO....Tomcat200 23 May 2006

[edit] Sources Not Used

I think we need links and references to many other sources that Spielberg may have used or chosen not to use, that serves imho to illuminate more on how and why he made the movie, and give background for readers that want to know more about the real story behind the film. One source I have not yet seen mentioned on Wikipedia (in this or the main Munich massacre article) is the Discovery Channel a while ago aired a documentary on the dramatized "Avner" group of the movie. It is called "Munich: The Real Assassins" and is being re-aired (naturally due to the new publicity) on Jan 22 10pm and I am setting my Tivo.

[edit] NPOV

This afternoon I edited this article for NPOV. Among other things, I amalgamated the controversy surrounding the movie and the book into a paragraph in the 'Film' section, so that everybody's aware that these are debated and contentious issues. I also collated information about whether Bana's character actually portrays Avner (ie, Aviv): neither IMDB nor the official site refer to his character as Avner. If there are definitive sources, I'd be keen to see them. Otherwise, I guess we'll all have to wait until the movie comes out. Caroline Sanford 08:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Check Time Magazine's cover story EXCLUSIVE: TIME Magazine FIRST to See ‘Munich’ dated Dec. 4, 2005. He's Avner.68.231.217.37 12:05, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Jolly good; this wasn't availablein the Antipodes when I wrote my comments. It's nice to see there are some facts around. Caroline Sanford 21:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

And now there are more facts around. The Time article, here in full does not say that Avner is Aviv. It says that Bana's character is named Avner Kauffman and that the movie is based on true events and a book by George Jonas. So, as per below, I have removed references to the Time article saying that Avner is Aviv. (talk to) Caroline Sanford 22:50, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV? Nonsense

Caroline --

There is no source whatsoever that this character is an amalgam. There is no evidence that either Spielberg or Kushner ever talked with a single Israeli intelligence official or with a single veteran.

The movie credits specifically state that it is based on "Vengeance" and the posters that "this is what happened next." And in Time Magazine, Spielberg clearly states he talked with "Avner" e.g. Yuval Aviv. Although their PR guy claimed that they spoke to "many sources" he refused to name a single one.

If the film is based on any verifiable source, I will agree that the facts are in dispute. But believing Aviv on his own word is rediculous, certainly not after his Lockerbie debacle.

Why would they suddenly drop the title after photography was completed -- without a replacement title -- shortly after the controversy became public.

What do you mean when you added "it has been asserted"? You mean by staffwriters of Ha'aretz, the San Francisco Chronicle and other papers?

I am a journalist of 35 years experience. Your changes to this entry are not neutral. This smells of commercial spin-doctoring.

And in 1972, the word for terrorist was terrorist. Period. An operative (your word) was a guy who followed another guy and took pictures. The widows and orphans of the Israeli athletes call them terrorists, the dictionary calls them terrorists, lets leave it at that. Politically correct terms like "operative" or "militant" or "activist" are not NPOV.

Unless you have anything other than Spielberg's word, i must consider your changes vandalism. 68.231.217.37 11:03, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Wait, are people actually trying to argue that we shouldn't use "terrorists" in relation to the murderers (and supporters/financiers/etc) of the Olympic team in Munich? Political correctness is getting so disgusting nowadays. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...it's a duck. GreatGatsby 02:09, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

68.231,

"Vandalism"? "Commercial spin-doctoring"? You sure know how to win people over to your point of view.

Which is what this is. This article plunges into the discreditation of the book and the film before it adequately describes either.

A better approach would be to create a sub-section called "Controversy", and move the book-related information to an appropriately-titled article, which is exactly what I have done.

That is all. Caroline Sanford 21:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] My edits

I've removed the implication that the main character is a composite character, because he's clearly Avner from Vengeance; if Avner was a composite character, that's another matter. It would also help to have sources for the controversy paragraph. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 11:15, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Hi 68.231, I've made a few changes to your recent edit. As a rule, many WP editors try to avoid using the word "terrorist" unnecessarily, so I changed it back to "operatives"; however I won't object again if you have strong feelings about it. Also, when you quote someone, if you could provide a citation, it would be appreciated; and rather than saying "journalists familiar with X" or "critics," it's best to provide names and attribute the view, with a citation. See WP:NOR and WP:V. In that way the edits will stick, whereas without that information they're likely to be removed at some point. Finally, just a small point about formatting, when we quote, we put it in quotation marks or we indent. There's no need to do both, or to add italics. See WP:MoS. Cheers, SlimVirgin ^(talk) 12:07, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Im a terrorism survivor, not an "operative-ism" survivor. I know what the word means.68.231.217.37 12:38, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The problem is that the word is bandied around so much that it can be hard to pin down an exact meaning, but I take your point and I won't pursue it. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 12:57, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

The Controversy section needs some clean up. Firstly, "the book and the film" should be restated.

The following phrase, in that section, is ambiguous and misleading: "None of its plot regarding the alleged Mossad agents or their methods has been independently verified, which journalists familiar with intelligence operations argue detracts from its credibility as an historical source". Which aspect of the plot and which methods haven't been identified? The "Wrath of God" missions and the gunning down of the PLO have been discussed in several books. The Lillehammer Affair is a well documented attempt by the Mossad to document assassinate PLO terrorists using hand guns. The controversy lies with the particulars of the team mentioned in Jonas' book. The phrase is too general and, in my opinion, implies that the whole notion of Mossad hit teams is doubtful. --Mr. Cool 01:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I'll search for the actual newspaper and magazine articles that criticize Vengeance and, by relation, Munich. Right now, the Controversy section seems to suffer from the fact that it has been written largely by only one author.--Mr. Cool 01:11, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Ive gone around posting this all over wikipedia. Terrorism is the act of causing terror. A terrorist is someone who causes terror. False Prophet 20:29, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Can of worms, meet can opener. Can opener, can of worms. Great. Now we're all introduced, let me just say, either we adopt a clear convention for what constitutes an act of terror, or we stop the assumed negative bias on the term terrorism. Nelson Mandela, American Forefathers, the Scottish at several points in history, the French resistants... these are all terrorists, no? If not, then what is terror? Is it only terror when you consider it wrong? Or does being afraid of a Hitchcock film make Alfred a terrorist? It has become a loaded term, and either needs to shed the loaded meaning, or develop some more precise criteria, because we can't go on using it if its going to cause futile PC debates like this. Edward Grefenstette 11:37, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

I believe that there is a standard definition of Terrorism, which is, "Terrorism is the act of using physical force or violence, or the threat of using such, to achieve some (usually political) goal, by an organization (or individual) not allied with any government. I believe the key part is not allied with an official government. When a government does it, it is called War. And, yes, it has nothing whatsoever to do with which side one is on. The Stern Gang and Etzel (Irgun) in 1947 committed terrorist acts against the British military, and the Al Fatah committed acts of terror against Israel and its citizens and Americans in the more recent past. Not to mention all the hundreds of other terrorist groups, such as Colonial American groups (don't recall if the Sons of Liberty or Green Mountain Boys are in this group or not), airplane hijackers to Cuba or Algeria in the 1960s, etc. etc. 66.108.4.183 18:54, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] 'Alleged'

I have made some amendments to this paragraph:

Munich is a 2005 film directed by Steven Spielberg about the events following the 1972 Munich Massacre. It follows an alleged Mossad squad, led by "Avner" Eric Bana, that is ordered to track down and kill the Black September terrorists thought to be responsible for the Israeli athletes' murders. The movie examines the actions of the purported Mossad group, and the alleged psychological toll that it took on the agents.

If you didn't know anything about this film, here's how the paragraph reads:

Munich is a film about some people who really existed, who tracked down the Black September terrorists. Possibly, they were Mossad agents. The movie examines the actions of the people who claimed to be a Mossad group, and the toll that this apparently took on them.

Whereas, what I think you're trying to say is this:

Munich is a film about Mossad agents tracking down Black September terrorists; they hunt down the terrorists, which takes a psychological toll on the agents. Whether this movie is based in fact or fiction is a matter of some debate.

I have made amendments as appropriate. Caroline Sanford 21:25, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Introduction

The intro states that Jonas' book was based on Juval Aviv's account. This a matter of debate. Jonas has never identified who Avner is and it is factually wrong to state Aviv is the source for Avner. The introduction is misleading as is and should be altered so that Aviv is not mentioned, but instead perhaps a mention to Jonas' controversial sources.--Mr. Cool 01:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

Since writing this, I have actually read reports in both NY Times and LA Times confirming Aviv as Jonas' source.--Mr. Cool 01:52, 16 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, the information in the parentheses, while factually correct, interrupt the flow of the introduction and serve no purpose in explaining the film.--Mr. Cool 01:10, 9 December 2005 (UTC)

I remember seeing the whole episode involving bicycle pumps in another movie -- from the seduction attempt at a bar to the execution of the hostile agent with the bicycle pumps. Can anyone confirm this? I think a reference to that other movie can be added to the article. --Faustus 12:37, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

After extensive searching, I have found suggestions that this episode is copied from "Agents Secrets" movie with Monica Bellucci. I am not sure whether this is the movie, can anyone confirm?--Faustus 14:32, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

"Vengeance" was made into the HBO movie "Sword of Gideon" [2], perhaps that's what you saw?--Lord of the Ping 07:26, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

It looks like the similarity to "Sword of Gideon" is a controversy that should be mentioned in the article. Consider this Wall Street Journal article, or this blog post for the specific reference to the bike pumps. --Faustus 02:08, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Time Magazine article

... can be read here. It does not say that Avner Kauffman is based on Juval Aviv. Aviv's name is never mentioned in the Time article. The article only confirms that Munich is based on Vengeance; it also says that "The moviemakers would not reveal the identity of the real Avner".

Thus, I have edited the sentence:

In a Time Magazine cover story about the film on December 4, 2005, Spielberg confirmed that Aviv is the source of the film and that the latter had had second thoughts about his actions.

Since it isn't true. (talk to) Caroline Sanford 21:19, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] NPR Fresh Air interview of writer

Interview on Fresh Air

Pulitzer prize-winning playwright Tony Kushner co-wrote the screenplay for the new Stephen Spielberg film Munich. Kushner won a Pulitzer for his 1993-1994 play Angels in America, which was performed in two parts and set in New York in the mid-1980s in the midst of the AIDS epidemic.

Holon67 16:22, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Lillehammer affair

Removed section titled "Historical inaccuracies" (a POV title) that discussed the events of the Lillehammer affair. While it has been documented that the Lillehammer incident was a mossad debacle, it is not directly relevant to the events of the movie, since the team the movie portrays was completely not related to the event, which was run by a different team. It is extremely biased to say the movie is historically inaccurate by leaving out the event, since none of the characters in the movie were involved in the event. Otherwise, the movie would have to include every single Israeli counter-terror actions in 1972 and 1973, as well as depict a comprehensive list of all terrorism around the globe in those years. Obviously not within the scope of the movie. Wodan

I think the film does adress this affair, although entirely non-factually - the scene where a waiter is killed at a party and the group flee (I think this is possibly supposed to be the lillehammer affair)

[edit] "Themes" section

Is this really necessary? I don't think it adds very much to the article, nor is it particularly useful. I think these could be derived from a short sentence or two earlier in the article like, "It deals with/Its themes include _, _, and _." But most could probably get the idea from the plot description (which is choppy in itself). Brutannica 18:10, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

It's completely unsourced and strikes me as original research. It should absolutely be removed. An encyclopedia article should not be trying to interpret the film. -- MisterHand 05:58, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Dear supergeniuses, you have a lot of censoring to do if you are going to think of wikipedia as your momma's encyclopedia, i mean, the encyc your mother purchased, eg, just one example: Themes_and_discussion. WHAT! Discussion?! Holon67 22:20, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sword Of Gideon

If you haven't watched Sword of Gideon, do so. It's the same story, but better told.

But lacks Spielberg flare and storytelling ;P 40oz 2 Freedom 02:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Hardly. While Sword of Gideon is not exactly great filmmaking, Munich is excrutiatingly bland, boring, and colorless. I just screened it last night; a terrific disappointment. Where is the psychological tension? Where is the moral conflict? Where can we find a fine performance? Where is Hitchcock when we need him? 66.108.4.183 18:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

[edit] DVD availability

Should a note be added to the DVD release section about the unexpected demand for the 2-disc DVD? It's only been out for about a week and already it is essentially out of print. R.E. Freak 06:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bomb Maker Suicide?

Evidence for suicide: Robert is a toy maker: immediately before his house blows up, a toy ferris wheel rotates and completes an obvious electrical contact. {{subst:24.8.231.234|24.8.231.234}}

I will double check the scene. It didn't look that clear, but maybe I'm wrong. MilesVorkosigan 21:37, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Well since it was said that bombmakers are often killed by their own devices, I don't think it was a suicide. We saw him lay his equipment everywhere, and doing all his stuff. Then the little character on the whell touch the explosives, I'm thinking "pulling the pin" or whatever had to be done (hence the delayed reaction of the explosion). 40oz 2 Freedom 00:58, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

Just went and watched it a couple of times in slow-mo. It doesn't look like the silly thing actually touches the contact, but that might just be a filming glitch. With the movie paused it sure looks like the little figure on the wheel was meant to touch the contact and the blurry cylinder it's attached to might be the grenade he took out of another bomb. MilesVorkosigan 05:23, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

I rented the movie from Mickey D's (RedBox), and I recall that that version distinctly showed a rotating thingy attached to the ferris wheel striking another object not on the wheel. I suggest that this, if not evidence, is inference (of premeditated suicide), a literary device critical to properly appreciating an author's intent. If you don't agree, you may wish to fix that grammatical error, "many bomb-makers are die in accidents."--24.8.231.234 22:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Major Juval Aviv, Israeli Defence Force (Res.)

Avner was a Captain in an Israeli Defense Force reconnaisance commando unit before he did security for El Al. Unit was most likely Sayeret Shaked according to the webmaster of the Israeli Special Forces Homepage @ www.isayeret.com. Reading the book was interesting in that Avner had a major falling out with Mossad and stayed in America to start a new life.

What I don't get is if Avner and Aviv are the same person then after the falling out why did he get a promotion to major in the reserves?

I like to mention also that in the late 1960's early 1970's, famed Israeli commando Muki Betser, was trained by an American Ex-Marine named "Dave". Avner says he got pistol training with an American guy named Dave as well. Mr Betser and Avner did work for El Al at one time. Maybe Betser knows who Avner is exactly.

Tomcat200 23 May 2006

[edit] French contact

Louis and Papa "French contacts". Fact or Fiction? They hated the Nazi's the Vichy, Stalin and the Americans. Their invaders and liberators! Who were they? French aristocratic Communists? Opus Dei? They remain elusive after all these years?

Dean1970 12 June 2006

I don't know who they are, but I would like to know. I believe they may have been simple black marketeers, willing to work for the highest bidder.

The article itself states that this part of the film plot (the use of outside sources to aid in locating the Arab terrorists) was not taken from Jonas's book. It was dramatic license by Spielberg (i.e. fictional). The Israelis used only their own sources. 66.108.4.183 19:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Whether they were real or not is a different question, but the characters of Louis and Papa are in Jonas' book. The presentation of these characters isn't identical between Spielberg's film and Jonas's book but they are in both and they are outside sources of info. in both. If they are fictional, the fiction is of Jonas' creation, not Spielberg's. Nuclare 23:54, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the movie made it clear that they were 'mercs' like Avner. However, "Papa" respected Avner because he (thought) he did what he did because it was his job, not out of idealogy or nationalism. I'd say they were Anarchists if anything ...

[edit] Length of plot section

Does anyone else feel that the template at the top of this article is uncalled for? The plot summary seems perfectly reasonable to me, as the other sections of the article are similarly thorough. If there is consensus, I will remove it. --Mus Musculus 04:55, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Glorification of Murderers

Killing should never be glorified. Assassins shouldn't be shown as heroes. Very disappointed with Spielberg to go ahead with this film after making films such as Schindlers List and Saving Private Ryan that have a brush with similar themes in relation to Judiasm and death, I feel that the film has put Israel in a far worse light, even if actions were never fully acknowledged. Londo06 05:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Munich 1 Poster.jpg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Mossadteam483.jpg

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[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Banamunich.jpg

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[edit] flashback in the end

In the end of the film , where its some guy is having sex with some woman, is there a flashback with it. Its the Munich Massacrae , and its jumps back and forth . Rio de oro (talk) 17:14, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] grammar

i just read the article, and i am wondering if the sentence: "The group go to Rome to track down and shoot their first target..." is correct English language? Isnt it supposed to be "The group goes to Rome to track down and shoot their first target..."