Talk:Munchausen syndrome by proxy

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[edit] Confusion regarding phrasing of who 'has' MSbP/FII

I've found that there are a few different ways phrasing methods used to connect MSbP/FII to the people involved, and not only are they inconsistent, some of them can seem like they are trying to excuse the behavior. Specifically, the problem is with phrasing along the lines of someone 'having' or 'suffering from' MSbP. The confusion seems to come from the question of which party involved is the one that 'has' MSbP, or if it's even proper at all to say that that MSbP is something that someone can 'have' at all. I've seen three distinct methods of phrasing used: that the 'caregiver' has MSbP, that the person in the caregiver's care has MSbP, or that MSbP is simply a 'behavior'. In my own thinking, the latter would be the best one to use. The first, while accurate in a sense, often sounds like an attempt to excuse the behavior, and the second isn't accurate at all - the person in whom an illness is fabricated is suffering from abuse, no more or less. - Pacula 16:49, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fixed major POV

There was a paragraph in the topic heading that was very strongly anti-religious, accusing religious clergy of FII using weasel words like "some." It was sourced, but on a closer look, the sources had NOTHING to do with that paragraphy, and in no way mentioned religion, clergy, or Christianity. I removed the POV, and am very dissapointed that noone has done so before.--Doom777 01:24, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite needed

After reading a newspaper article this morning, I thought I would look into the subject matter, and, as a wikipedian, the first place I turned to was here... ZOMG! To bring this article anywhere near a half-decent standard is going to take some work. In the first instance I have flagged it up with template messages, and I will now read through similar articles we have about medical conditions - particularly potentially discredited ones - and see how they are approached. This is quite a controversial subject and one of the thrusts of future edits should be to ensure WP:POV and also WP:V. Devious Viper 12:57, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move to Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy please

"Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy" is in far more common use than "Fabricated or Induced Illness", plus the latter phrase can also refer to fabricated or induced illnesses in general. Compare Google searches or look in medical dictionaries. --62.251.90.73 20:16, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

You could suggest that the page be renamed if you think that name is more accurate. Joie de Vivre 01:21, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Which if either are in DSM? --M a s 13:15, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
As the person who originally split this page off from the Munchausen Syndrome article, I do understand the arguements for naming this page MSbP rather than FII - it was a tough call to make. However, from what I could discover, MSbP was never any kind of official name, but rather simply what Dr. Meadow had called the phenomenon. FII was the first and only "official" name that it was given that I could find. Even though MSbP is the more known name by far, it still seems more appropriate to put this article under the more formal name. - Pacula 18:10, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Should there be a split into two types of FII?

Type 1: FII which is induced for reasons of glory, fame, attention, to play god, or similar. Where someone makes some else ill so they can benefit from it (e.g.: as a careworker treating a patient, or as a parent getting in the papers, or benefiting through fundraising).

Type 2: FII which is induced based on an unshakable "faith" or "belief" that the victim IS ill and MUST be treated, or possibly a belief that the victim is "supposed" to be ill, that there is something wrong with them, even when there isn't. The inducer is somehow unable to understand that there is truly nothing wrong with the child, and that under normal circumstances, the child is well, not ill. They seem to want to make their child better, somehow not fully comprehending that the child would have to become ill first before this is possible (you cannot become more well than healthy, you have to "become ill" before you can "get better"). At the same time as not comprehending, and wanting the child to get BETTER, they seem to take actions ENSURING that the child becomes ILL. In this case, fame, money, attention, seem less important - they WANT the child to be treated, and that is all that matters.

Any thoughts?--Athcnv 23:16, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Hey, thanks for commenting. We should not make such a split unless there is medical documentation of two types. Wikipedia's purpose is to document existing, verifiable knowledge, not to publish new theories (per WP:No original research and WP:V). Do you have documentation of medical knowledge regarding two types? Joie de Vivre 01:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm not aware of there being any medical documentation which mentions 2 specific types. I just got the impression from the article that there could be 2 distinct groups of reasons - greed and "belief". --Athcnv 14:24, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] L.A. Law episode

There was an episode of the tv show L.A. Law where MSbP was a plot element, but I don't know the year or episode title. If anyone can find it, it should be added to the "popular culture" section. Also perhaps add a reference to this article from MSN Entertainment. It gives the "Worst Medical Overkill" award to the use of Munchausen Syndrome and MSbP in various medical dramas. --Mathew5000 02:43, 5 April 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Controversy

over???

Although the court case is an interesting read- the controversy insuated in the first paragraph and the cases themselves don't directly tie into the subject (at least the way this paragraph is written). This is information directly related to Roy Meadow himself almost outside the context of Fabricated or Induced Illness. Great information on Meadow, but I learned nothing of "Fabricated or Induced Illness" from it.

[edit] NPOV in intro

I have changed this:

In FII a caregiver, usually a parent, guardian, or spouse, feigns or induces an illness in another person, usually a vulnerable child or adult, to gain power and control over the victim as well as attention or sympathy from others. Although cases with feigned or induced physical illness receive the most attention, it is also possible for a perpetrator who emotionally abuses a victim to simulate and fabricate conditions that appear to be psychiatric and/or genetic problems. Health professionals can also be guilty of intentionally or unintentionally inducing or creating the illusion of illness. An iatrogenic condition is defined as a state of ill health induced by medical treatment. 'Iatrogenic' literally means "caused by a doctor", although such conditions can be the result of malpractice perpetrated by therapists, nurses, pharmacists, or other caregivers as well.

... to this:

In FII a caregiver, usually a parent, guardian, or spouse, feigns or induces an illness in another person, usually a vulnerable child or adult, to gain power and control over the victim as well as attention or sympathy from others. Although cases with feigned or induced physical illness receive the most attention, it is also possible for a perpetrator who emotionally abuses a victim to simulate and fabricate conditions that appear to be psychiatric and/or genetic problems.

The explanation of iatrogeny belongs in an article about that topic, not factitious disorder by proxy. Also, there is no source backing the statements about iatrogenic factitious disorder by proxy. When physicians obey some patients with extreme desires - such as treating them for cancer when they have none - they can get sued (under Forensic implications). Antelan talk 01:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is a duplicate article- not needed

People will not search for this term, and it's all already here under the correct terms Malingering and Munchausen syndrome, terms to which most of the sources here refer in their titles.Merkinsmum 17:37, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this article is a duplication of Factitious disorders, but not of Munchausen. There many more distinct diseases; Morgellons (delusional parasitosis) is making the news these days, but there is also malingering, neurodermatitis and more. I suggest these two pages are fused into one which would be reduced to a list of wikilinks to individual diseases. In other words, the article would be converted to a category. Emmanuelm (talk) 19:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Oups, the Category:Factitious disorders already exist! Emmanuelm (talk) 19:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] move/rename Munchie's S by P

Oh I've thought about it some more- if as the lead says this is about Munchausen Syndrome by Proxy why is that a redirect to here rather than this being there, when that is a term for which people might actually search?Merkinsmum 18:10, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The act is verifiable while the intention behind the motive is often not

The previous article somewhat seems to imply that fact that some children are harmed, by default, prove MSbP. This is grossly inaccurate claim. I believe my edit made clear where the controversy is. 130.88.25.181 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 14:23, 6 December 2007 (UTC)