Talk:Multiverse

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[edit] Why all the crazy science?

Why do you need all this stuff about the universes being in different dimensions or having different physics? Wouldn't it be much simpler to say that out beyond the border of our universe there is some empty space and eventually another universe trillions of light years away? --67.193.45.183 (talk) 03:00, 3 March 2008 (UTC)


One would think....Jjdon (talk) 23:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fictional multiverses section

Does this unreferenced and trivial section serve any real purpose? Are there any fictional multiverses of any genuine historic importance (e.g. ones that led to new cosmological hypotheses)? As the section stands, wouldn't it be better just to have a link to Parallel universe (fiction) in the see-also section? HrafnTalkStalk 05:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I understand your argument, I think perhaps what we should do would be to replace the content in the Fictional Multiverses section with a few notable fictional multiverses, and anyone who wants to learn more should go to the page you mentioned or to the page on the specific multiverse mentioned. What I mean would be to replace the content in this section with a list of links to other pages. Such as a bullet for TV, with an example of two; a bullet for literature, with an example or two; a bullet for film, with an example or two; and so on and so on, with each example being a link to a page where more specified information can be found.--BigBang616 (talk) 06:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The trouble is that none of the fictional universes inserted to date have been demonstrated to be "notable" under wikipedia criteria: "has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." This is where the unsourced element becomes so pernicious. Simply turning this non-notable trivia from prose into an embedded list doesn't make this any better. HrafnTalkStalk 08:41, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia: "If an article currently does not cite reliable secondary sources that are independent of the subject, that does not necessarily mean the topic is not notable." So, just because they don't have "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" does not mean they are not notable. And you're right, changing this from prose to an embedded list doesn't make it any better. I was just trying to find a compromise between deleting the section entirely and the section in which these multiverses are mentioned in prose. And please don't delete the section again, according to Wikipedia guidelines: presenting information poorly is better than not presenting it at all.--BigBang616 (talk) 17:24, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
"The common theme in the notability guidelines is the requirement for verifiable objective evidence to support a claim of notability." HrafnTalkStalk 17:45, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I didn't claim, within the article, that the information was notable, I told you, in this discussion, that I considered fictional multiverses notable. Do you want me to put a reference at the end of the section header to a place an article that discusses fictional multiverses? And all notability is subjective, what I think is notable, is obviously not to you, regardless of what I think. I just think this section should (a) remain here, and if you don't like that then change the section to the way you do like it, and (b) DISCUSS it rationally with me (QUOTING DOESN'T COUNT AS DISCUSSING, I could quote whatever I want all day and it won't have any impact). —Preceding unsigned comment added by BigBang616 (talk --BigBang616 (talk) 19:16, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I don't give a pair of fetid dingo's kidneys what you "claim" -- I, and wikipedia policy, care about EVIDENCE, hence my quoting to you "verifiable objective evidence to support a claim of notability." If you can find a scholarly WP:RS discussing fictional multiverses generally, then that is a reasonable basis for including a brief general discussion, sourcable to this reference, on fictional multiverses. If you want to provide specific examples you need to provide "verifiable objective evidence" that they are sufficiently noteworthy to warrant inclusion (and no, Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe: Alternate Universes 2005 does not count as "objective"). HrafnTalkStalk 04:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Look, I don't know if you get it, but AS I KEEP MENTIONING, I would like to discuss this before you do anything drastic YET AGAIN. And yes, the Official Handbook does indeed count as a source, apparently you didn't check, or care to check, out the source. Also, it is a work in progress, I will eventually fill out the sources more thoroughly, and will continue to restore the section no matter how many times you delete it. So, until you're willing to discuss this before deleting it again, I will see you then.--BigBang616 (talk) 04:05, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:NOTE, Marvel publications are not "independent of the subject" nor are they "objective". Per WP:RS they are not "scholarly". They may be sufficient of a source for a fancruft article on the Marvel-related subjects, but not for a serious science article on cosmology. If you insist on reinserting this irrelevant fancruft, I will continue deleting it.
You don't get it at all, do you? I'm trying to have a rational discussion with you, trying to discuss the potential of making changes, trying to come up with a compromise before any changes are made, but what do you keep doing? You read what I'm saying, take a few words out of it, use them in an "argument" against what I said, then do whatever you want. Please, just consider the idea of a compromise between what you want, entire deletion, and what I want mention of the content (all the content) that's already there. I know you'll completely disregard this, do whatever you want (delete change, whatever) without even considering what I'm saying, but I still feel compelled to bring up the idea of a rational discussion. --BigBang616 (talk) 05:12, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Re your recent reverts:

  • What excuse have you got for your repeated restoring of the wholly unsourced first and third paragraphs of this section, in violation of WP:PROVEIT?
  • What evidence do you have that the Marvel & DC multiverses are of "historic importance", or in the slightest bit noteworthy outside comics-fandom?

As to the general progress of the article, as I have stated before:

  • Generally discussion of fictional multiverses requires a scholarly WP:RS discussing them.
  • Specific examples requires verifiable objective evidence that they are noteworthy.

HrafnTalkStalk 05:37, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

You know what, you win. I'm tired of this whole thing. You're right. This is a science/fact-based article and the information I'm trying to save belongs somewhere else, in another article about fiction, just as you suggested. I won't interfere or undo your removal of the section again. You have won. --BigBang616 (talk) 05:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ultimate ensemble (?) vs Schmidhuber's constructive ensemble

The section on Level IV says: "Other mathematical structures give different fundamental equations of physics. This level considers "real" any hypothetical universe based on one of these structures. Since this subsumes all other possible ensembles, it brings closure to the hierarchy of multiverses: there cannot be a Level V. The question is open whether or not scientists will subdivide Level IV in the future."

But Level IV either does not make sense or is already subdivided. Jürgen Schmidhuber says the "set of mathematical structures" is not even well-defined, and admits only universe representations describable by constructive mathematics, that is, computer programs. He explicitly includes universe representations describable by non-halting programs whose output bits converge after finite time, although the convergence time itself may not be predictable by a halting program (Kurt Gödel's limitation). Sources: J. Schmidhuber: A Computer Scientist's View of Life, the Universe, and Everything. Lecture Notes in Computer Science, pp. 201-208, Springer, 1997: http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/everything/ 2. Algorithmic Theories of Everything" http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/toesv2/ or http://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0011122 (2000) 3. Hierarchies of generalized Kolmogorov complexities and nonenumerable universal measures computable in the limit. International Journal of Foundations of Computer Science 13(4):587-612, 2002 http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/kolmogorov.html . He also explicitly discusses another subdivision, namely, quickly computable universes: The Speed Prior: A New Simplicity Measure Yielding Near-Optimal Computable Predictions. Proc. 15th Annual Conference on Computational Learning Theory (COLT 2002), Sydney, Australia, Lecture Notes in Artificial Intelligence, pp. 216-228. Springer, 2002. http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/speedprior.html . See his web site for more: http://www.idsia.ch/~juergen/computeruniverse.html . The text should be edited accordingly. Discrepancy (talk) 20:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Islamic view

Hrafn, what is the position you think I'm trying to advance to? doesn't Islam believe that there are seven heavens? isn't this what the article is talking about? Imad marie (talk) 10:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The Qur'anic verse that you cited made no mention of "Dunyah", let alone that "Dunyah encompasses the entire universe as we know it, including the Earth". It is unclear whether this is WP:SYNTH of this verse, your ownWP:OR or simply an independent unverified claim, but either way it is impermissible. HrafnTalkStalk 11:41, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
My mistake, I copied from Seventh Heaven. I will refine. Imad marie (talk) 11:58, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Would you mind telling me what the Islamic view of multiple heavens (which you have reverted to reinclude) has to do with a "hypothetical set of multiple possible universes"?
There are some Islamic scholars who interpret "heavens" as "universes", with their own physical laws. Imad marie (talk) 14:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
The trouble with this is (1) you have yet to cite a source for this 'interpretation' and (2) even if this interpretation were verified, a 'multiverse of heavens' has very little in common with the multiverses discussed in this article.
You don't find the religious view of this article related to Seventh Heaven? Imad marie (talk) 14:24, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I've likewise templated the Islam section of Seventh Heaven, because it is equally WP:SYNTH that provides no secondary sources for its interpretation of the Qur'an. HrafnTalkStalk 15:11, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Hrafn, I can find references for my claim, however this is controversial because no one knows for sure that the heavens mentioned in the Qur'an (or any other religious book) really refers to the Multiverse (as a physical universe). It's all theories and no one can be sure about it, this applies for Islam and any other religion. If you are against the religious interpretation of Multiverse then you should delete the section (hypotheses in religions around the globe). Imad marie (talk) 17:14, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

No. The Hindu version is very explicitly talking about a 'multiverse' in the same sense as the rest of the article -- multiple universes each with planets and inhabitants. Contrast this with the Islamic view, which is talking about multiple "heavens". Heavens are usually considered to be in some (generally very vaguely specified) way very different, and greatly better, than earthly existence. If they are 'universes' then they are very different universes from our own. Therefore the Hindu view has a reasonable claim to a place in this article, whereas the Islamic one belongs solely in an article on supernatural planes of existence (heaven(s), hell(s), limbo, etc). HrafnTalkStalk 17:55, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm not an expert in Multiverse, so I'll just drop it off here. But I have to ask: does anyone really know the nature of those alleged (alternative universes)? No, no one knows, it's all just theories and this Multiverse is in the divine knowledge. Muslims think that there are other "heavens" with diffirent physical laws, and that God inhabits the seventh heaven. Aren't those universes? Imad marie (talk) 11:16, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
According to Heaven, it is a 'Plane of existence', rather than a 'universe'. While these concepts might, in some conceptions of them, overlap does not mean that they aren't generally considered distinguishable. The multiverse hypothesis is not talking about heavens, hells, or other such planes of existence. That some philosophers might conceive of such planes of existence as alternate universes is something that can (if WP:RSs can be found) be worked into Plane of existence, I do not think it belongs in this article. HrafnTalkStalk 11:55, 14 April 2008 (UTC)