Talk:Muhammad/images/Archive 3

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Removal of the Pics of Muhammad

Muslims strongly believe that Muhammad (Salal la ho Alay hi Wasallam)is the last messenger of Allah, all mighty. No one is allowed to make pics of Muhammad (Salal la ho Alay hi Wasallam)or make any sketch that relates to Muhammad (Salal la ho Alay hi Wasallam) (No, Muslims aren't allowed). It is humbly requested to remove these pictures from the article as it can cause serious reactions from the muslim community. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Atifgil (talk • contribs) 09:36, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no humility in your request, given the longish discussion we had on this, and also seeing that you couple your request with a threat. No-no! Str1977 (talk) 09:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Haha, come to us on hands and knees, and the editors of the will forgive your sins. Atifgil, we had long and horrible discussions about this. Make sure you read Wikipedia is not censored, WP:NPOV, and our policies in general before trying to argue against pictures. I argued for fewer pictures for the sake of more accurate representation. But, please don't argue that they shouldn't be here because they offend some Muslims, because that is not a good justification. gren グレン 06:35, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Atifgil, if you would like to comb through the discussion, please see Talk:Muhammad/images/archive. If you can find a new point to make, then feel free to voice it. --Hojimachongtalk 05:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Although I do realize that its your ideology and belief, I dont think religious laws or censorship is followed on wikipedia. If that be the case then each group will start demanding removal of pictures offensive for them. For example, atheists will ask for the removal of Jesus article and pictures. Then Muslims will ask for removal of pictures of pork as its offensive to them. Then we might have the request for the removal of the pictures of all kinds of meat because vegans might find it offensive. I dont think this works. If someone doesnt like it, they can prevent the images from showing in the browser. Images of Mohammed are available all over the internet anyway. NapoleansSword 06:27, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
In actuality, NapoleansSword (Napolean for short?), the arguments presented by both sides were much more complex, thought-out and valid than the simple manner you presented. The link I provided in my last edit may be of interest to you, as it presents these arguments. --Hojimachongtalk 01:32, 26 September 2007 (UTC)


I think that pictures should be removed instantly because they are offensive to Islam and to Muslims. Besides, whpever wrote the article should be a Muslim expert or at least a muslim for that matter! I strongly suggest the pictures showing our beloved Prophet Muhammad's face must be removed. If a strong-powered Muslim defender sees this article, there might be some problems that will face Wikipedia and its owners. This is not a threat! This is a something to make you think of what may happen if these pictures are kept on the article further more. Please keep this in mind, and I hope you remove them as fast as possible. - Simsimtigger 28 September 2007 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 14:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Simstiger, please understand that Wikipedia means no disrespect to Muhammad or Islam by including images of him. We here at Wikipedia have taken a vow to try to treat all subjects and all articles the same way. We have promised our readers that we will do this. This means we try to show images of ALL biography subjects, even though we know our Muslim readers very much wish we didn't include pictures of Muhammad. We don't mean to insult Islam or its rules regarding depictions of Muhammad-- but we can't obey those rules ourselves and still be true to the promise we have made to our readers. See Wikipedia is not aniconisitic. --Alecmconroy 15:08, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
If the policy is a problem, then change the policy. Even the current policy itself states that images should only be added if they help the article. Frankly, I question how an image would help the article. It seems just the opposite that its inclusion is only a source of friction and pain. I reject the "no censorship arguement." There are no authoritative pictures of Muhammad.--Bill Bisco 05:36, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

I strongly suggest removing the facial pics of Muhammad (PBUH), it is strongly against faith to see his face since it can never be accurately depicted. Thank you :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.68.48.48 (talk) 00:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


Yes, Please Remove the Facial Picuture of Prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H), and respect all religions..... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zarmaan (talk • contribs) 09:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


I haven't seen anywhere in quran that says "don't show pics of prophet muhammad".That is made up after him

In Alhadeth Alsharef (prophet Mohammed sayings) sketching pictures is prohibited, it's like matching Allah creations. Please respect Islam and remove the pictures.

      • I want to confirm that "There are no authoritative pictures of the prophet Muhammad (PBUH)", so how can wikipedia put somthing which is not confirmed as true??! Tarek.

just remove these pictures ok!--Mohammad ka (talk) 00:31, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Just stop telling people what to do, OK. TharkunColl (talk) 00:40, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Do read the FAQ at the top. --Farix (Talk) 02:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Pics of the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) & about this page..

With reference to the discussion about pictures depicting the Prophet (PBUH) below, I'm sure that all of my fellow Wiki-users will admit to the fact that the Wiki foundation really does a lot of homework & that in Wiki's process of letting the masses access such information without any hindrances, they have to let go of certain rules which may openly flout Islamic teachings/ law. One of the pillars of Islam which form what Muslims call 'Iman' is 'Shahadah' or in other words, Muslims all over the world testify to the fact that there is no other God than Allah & that The Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is his Messenger. It vehemently condemns & prescribes severe punishment for those Muslims who associate anything/anyone with Allah. It also strictly forbids the reproduction/creation of any live creatures created by the Almighty. Now, when we talk about a Muslim's, let alone the Prophet's pictures being taken, created & distributed, it can be plainly termed 'haraam'. One must try & understand that the Prophet had the same restrictions/freedom as a normal Muslim had & has till date. As per a user's comment that tomorrow, a Muslim might claim that pork is forbidden in Islam & that they might request removal of pictures depicting swines from the Wiki pages. My friend, Muslims are forbidden from consuming pork & not viewing them through what we call 'eyes' , bestowed by the Almighty. Any questions on the above is welcomed.

I would also like to add, if this page is ever unprotected, please include a disclaimer that would hold individuals who edit information otherwise not included in this article by Wikipedia or any other allied subsidiary/partner, for the authenticity of the information that they append. For the general public: Please try to understand that any wrong facts stated herein may hurt people of various religions - Christians, Muslims & Jews and all others that follow the same ideology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by M.mzq (talk • contribs) 20:10, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Have you combed through Talk:Muhammad/images/archive? --Hojimachongtalk 20:13, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I think that what is needed is an analysis of why these pictures are justified and included. Images of the Prophet is a special case and deserves more than just a simple statement of consensus since I think it is safe to say that Islam is underrepresented among Wikipedia editors. There are many examples of major mainstream media observing this practice of avoiding images of the Prophet or his immediate family members. Is it too much to ask that a coherent statement be composed so that those who do not prevail can be referred to some coherent statement of judgment? If such a statement were coherent and fairly comprehensive, I expect that such a statement would go a long way towards building a genuine consensus and mutual understanding.--Createinfo2 21:46, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't see what an analysis will reveal that hasn't been revealed by the constant discussion that goes on about this. No new information or justification for censoring pictures of Muhammad have yet been presented. What the "major mainstream media" does is irrelevant to how we do things on Wikipedia. Mainstream media is notorious for censoring things for the sake of political correctness. We don't do things like that on Wikipedia nor do we candycoat things. Unless something new and compelling comes up as to why pictures of Muhammad should be censored, this subject should be considered settled. Frotz 21:57, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

No favoritism

Wikipedia is encycolpedic, and will not show favortism to any religion. For example, if we removed the images of Muhammad, then that would be showing favortism to Islam over Christianity because we still show images of Jesus. But if we removed all images of Muhammed and Jesus, then we will be showing favoritism to other religions like Buddhism by showing images of Buddha. And if we remove all images of Muhammed, Jesus, and Buddha, then we would be showing favoritism to Islam and Christianity, because images of Buddha are very important to Buddhist. You can see that we have no choice but to uphold the Wikipedia policy of showing depictions of all subjects of a biography article. --MahaPanta (talk) 21:54, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I do not see removing the photos make any favoritism, as Buddhism want their photos so this is fine to them. But muslims want the illustrations to be removed. --Basio (talk) 08:13, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with favoritism its about truth and reality, you people are just pushing a anti Islamic agenda under these banners. I regard it as a attempt to stain the Islamic values and history, and show new students only western view Islam and its Prophet, Wikipedia did not put any offensive picture on other topics just on topics related to Islam then try to show them as part of Islam. --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 04:05, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

PLEASE REMOVE PICTURES OF THE BELOVED PROPHET(peace and blessings be upon him)

In the Name of God, the Beneficient, the Merciful Excellence Belongs to GOD As Salaam Alaikum and peace be upon all of you who view this article. I am writing as a concernced human being and a concerned striving Muslim. These pictures are a defamation to humanity, Islam and Muhammad(SAW). It was previously addressed to remove the pictures but No attention has been given to this Great Concern. We kindly ask both pictures be removed, due to the fact that it is strongly fordidden in Christianity, Islam, and Judaism. Pictures of true messengers and servants of GOD create barriers, SUPERIORITY COMPLEXES, stereotypes, and many other vices that hinders one's perception of truth and justice. We all know history and seen what false images of the prophets have done to the minds of billions of people. Please honor this request. All PRAISE is for God, creator of all creation wa salaam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuh and peace be with you all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.188.43.1 (talk) 18:44, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

short answer. No. We have discussed this extensively; it isn't going to happen. If you want to know why, read the archives. Yahel Guhan 19:51, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
It is important for all parties to remember that these are obviously not pictures of Muhammad. They're not even paintings of Muhammad, not unless you believe you can paint the picture of someone you've never seen, without so much as a drawing or much of a description to go by. At the utmost they can be said to be illustrative historical fiction about Muhammad, if that. 70.15.116.59 19:33, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
So you acknowledge that they are about Muhammad. Good, thank you. It can thus be logically deduced from that point that these images are of Muhammad as the author imagines him. Fortunately for everyone the images are preserved in that context and no claim is made that they are an exact likeness of Muhammad as he was. --Strothra 01:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Anonymous contributor-- please understand that Wikipedia means no disrespect to Muhammad or Islam by including images of him. We here at Wikipedia have taken a vow to try to treat all subjects and all articles the same way. We have promised our readers that we will do this. This means we try to show images of ALL biography subjects, even though we know our Muslim readers very much wish we didn't include pictures of Muhammad. We don't mean to insult Islam or its rules regarding depictions of Muhammad-- but we can't obey those rules ourselves and still be true to the promise we have made to our readers. See Wikipedia is not aniconisitic. --Alecmconroy 01:39, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Muhammad/images/archive. --Hojimachongtalk 04:46, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I can't believe they're still bringing this up every now and then. The more you ask us to remove the pictures of your beloved prophet, the more pictures we're going to add. — Ryu vs Ken (talk · contribs) 12:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
What a childish attitude!Itsmejudith 14:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Uhh... No. It's understandable that new people will keep bringing it up. We should expect this to continue indefinitely, and we should try to be as kind and understanding as possible. It's a wonderful thing, two completely different cultures communicating so totally for the first time. And even if we can't conform to their customs, we should try to be respectful of them insofar as possible. (comment continued below) -Alecmconroy
Childish attitude is to complain and nag for over a year about pictures of their "beloved prophet" who happened to kill people who opposed him. Seriously, get over it, we have pictures of Muhammad here on Wikipedia, and they're not going away, whether you like it or not. — Ryu vs Ken (talk · contribs) 16:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Right-- this is a perfect example of what we SHOULDN'T be doing. --Alecmconroy 16:52, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
My grandfather has this crazy idea that wearing a hat indoors is a horrible insult to the homeowner. If someone in the teens or twenties should ever walk into his house and not take off their hat, he feels deeply offended by the hat. Where he got this tradition I have no idea. The teenagers who on occasion offend him through their hatwearing have no clue that a hat indoors is offensive-- but he gets offended all the same. So when I go to visit in his house, I try to remember his bizarre hat etiquette, and do my best not to upset him without need. Although we are from the same nation, he and I are not from the same culture, and I try my best to be considerate of his culture, in so far as is possible-- even though I can't imagine how he got it in his head that my wearing a hat would be an insult.
The people who come here complaining about pictures of Muhammad are somebody else's grandparent, or parent, or sibling, or child. They care about Muhammad far more than my grandfather cares about hats. They live in a culture where what we are doing on this page is seen as a horrible insult. When they ask for removal, we must decline-- but we must decline with politeness, empathy, and consideration. We must underscore we're not trying to insult. We must try to be understanding, even if we can't really can't truly understand. And we must never ever present are actions in displaying pictures as signs of animosity. --Alecmconroy 14:47, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Someone's clearly wearing rose-colored glasses. Anyway, get back to a discussion of the article and article edits. This discussion should have been over once the policies were reiterated. If you want to change the policies, go to the respective policies and discuss the issue on those talk pages. --Strothra 17:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
A reminder that we must collaborate in a fair and friendly manner is always acceptable. Itsmejudith 17:16, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
WP:CIVIL is also a key policy along with the guidelines WP:AGF & WP:BITE which should be followed - and there really is no excuse for longstanding editors to ignore these. → AA (talk) — 17:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
There's a huge fat warning sign at the top of the page, saying, and I quote: This has been discussed extensively and consensus was to include the images. Please see the archives for why the images will not be removed; comment here only if you have something new to say. — Seriously, this topic has been discussed to death. Some of us are sick of reiterating it. We just want to move on and edit the article professionally. — Mega Man (talk · contribs) 17:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Mega Man, Paul and whoever doesn't understand a simple clear message. Do not place pictures of the Prophet Mohammed (pbuh) on this website! If your sick of hearing this then it means its quite serious and offensive to muslims. Also you will not even find an accurate picture of him anyway, as he was against any portrait being made of him in his lifetime. Anyway, you people are not important or significant enough to be making comments and decisions on whether to view pics of prophet mohammed(pbuh) or not, and it doesn't matter how you feel about this so I suggest keep to your lower places and move onto other things than meddle in things that you don't know! EddyJawed 01:22, December 12, 2007 (UTC)
Please make your points rationally, respectfully, and civily. Your rancor is not doing you or your position any good. Frotz (talk) 03:06, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
The fact that the topic "has been discussed to death" is no justification for biting the newbies, please read WP:BITE. Paul August ☎ 17:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
If it bothers you, don't respond to them. I fought hardest to have the image on the page-- I feel like it's my duty to (try my best to) personally respond to each unique individual at least once to try my best to politely explain just why the image is here. If they protractedly argue, that's one thing-- but if somebody makes an account to politely ask us to make a change that's super important to them, they deserve one uber-polite reply saying why not. --Alecmconroy 19:07, 13 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frotz (talk • contribs)
I still think that the best course of action is to politely refer them to image discussion archives, and be accommodating as to their questions as per Alecmconroy. --Hojimachongtalk 05:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I replaced the teddy bear image with the original image that was at the top of the article as I considered it to of been vandalism. I don't think either image is the one you discussing. But I had a similiar discussion to this on [1] and found that Wikipedia:Content_disclaimer satisfies these concerns.petedavo (talk) 03:11, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

REMOVE IMAGES

Please: remove the alleged images of the Prophet! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.87.183.204 (talk) 12:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Anonymous contributor-- please understand that Wikipedia means no disrespect to Muhammad or Islam by including images of him. We here at Wikipedia have taken a vow to try to treat all subjects and all articles the same way. We have promised our readers that we will do this. This means we try to show images of ALL biography subjects, even though we know our Muslim readers very much wish we didn't include pictures of Muhammad. We don't mean to insult Islam or its rules regarding depictions of Muhammad-- but we can't obey those rules ourselves and still be true to the promise we have made to our readers. See Wikipedia is not aniconisitic. --Alecmconroy 13:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Alecmconroy-- Please do not patronize us by saying that the wikipedia community does not want to insult Islam. There were no pictures on this page for a very long time and when we tried to remove the one image posted the community responded by posting multiple images. By the admins enforce the posting of unnecessary images the are willfully and purposefully insulting the Muslim community. I understand the images are going to stay but just be honest and say it the way it is. --Autoshade (talk) 06:21, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Articles that have grown past the stub stage typically have pictures. Frotz (talk) 21:11, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

No. And please read to top of the page were it clearly states that any requests to remove images of the prophet will be ignored/deleted. (Butters x 11:11, 16 November 2007 (UTC))

The point is why to pick up so many pictures of Prophet Muhammad painted or drawn while this is highly controversial and no real picture of him. Does saying that articles that have grown have pictures mean that you post the Danish cartoons as well. That means you should post all the objectionable pictures pertaining to Judaism and Christianity as well. Honestly reply.--Muneeb smw (talk) 18:31, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

If we were doing an article about negative cartoon depictions of religious figures then yes I would say that we should post those. However, the depictions (or rather depiction since I think at this point there's only one) of Muhammad in the article is a legitimate image of historical, cultural, and religious value to someone trying to understand the disparate viewpoints in Islam and how the Islamic religion has viewed its most important figure. Therefore it can, will, and should be included in this article. This is not an insult its just the way wikipedia works. RecentlyAnon (talk) 17:47, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually the Danish cartoons are available in Wikipedia in the article concerning the controversy. Further, additional works with muhammad's image are available at Depictions of Muhammad.--Strothra (talk) 18:51, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't repeat what has been said before about removing those offensive Pictures...I just want you to know about http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia#signatures those 13600+ and counting who voted for the removal...so where are the people who what the pictures to be published????????

Wikipedia is not censored we do not remove things just because people find them offensive. The censorship policy can be found at WP:CENSOR. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 19:26, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not function by snout-counting. We have rules, the number of people who want something to be removed is irrelevant if the rules say it should stay. We operate by consensus but this isn't a democracy. Again the images aren't meant as an insult you have to realize that the whole world doesn't live or function according to the laws of any one sect or religion. RecentlyAnon (talk) 19:45, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually, in Islam it's a sin to show or draw pictures of prophets, the Wikipedia staff should understand and respect this, so please, remove the pics which "show" the prophet mohammad (peace be upon him), and at least "unlock" the page so we can do this ourselfs. 84.235.26.248 (talk) 12:27, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

This has already been widely discussed as you can see on this page as well as the archives and the Talk:Muhammad/FAQ, and the decision has been made that the images will stay. Thanks for your input. AliveFreeHappy (talk) 12:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Please remove the Illustrations

Good Morning.

It would be very considerate and kind of you, if you could remove all the Illustrations depicting Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W S.A.W S.A.W) that you have included in your article.

I very much appreciate that you are very respectful in the development of this article, and I believe that by you being kind enough to remove the illustrations I am refering to, would be a gesture of further respect towards Islam.

I came to this article with much happiness, but as soon as I saw the illustrations, I had no alternative but to leave. It is for this reason that I have not even been able to read the atricle yet.

At the end of the day, you are writing an article related to Islam, and you should be considerate towards the teachings of Islam and feelings of the believers.

By removing the Illustrations, you will not be making the article incomplete - it does not make any difference to this article if the illustrations are not there.

In Islam we know that Prophet Muhammad (S.A.W S.A.W S.A.W) has no shadow, no photograph or portrait was ever made of Him, and the same goes for any illustrations. Therefore, HOW can you put illustrations that have no authenticity?

Warmest Regards. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.216.65.57 (talk) 15:39, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

If the images have no authenticity, then what do you care? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.59.9.52 (talk) 20:41, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for being so polite. But were still not going to listen to you. (Butters x (talk) 20:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC))

Unfortunately, conforming to stringent Islamic requirements regarding pictures would be the end of Wikipedia Commons, as not just pictures of Mohammed are forbidden, but all pictures of things with a soul. Please see Kitaab At-Tawheed Ch.58 and Sahih Bukhari V7B72N833-846 for some information regarding that. I hope that Mohammed's face being veiled in most pictures and your ability to not look directly at these pictures will be enough to allow you to visit and read this page (and others). Apologies for the inconvenience. clicketyclickyaketyyak 17:30, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
can u plz make sure that u delete all the picz which mentions or potrays MUHAMMED (PBUH) because that completly forbidden in islam. do this ASAP. thankz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Faaiz1 (talk • contribs) 00:22, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is making a very big mistake by not removing these pictures of our prophet! This issue has already created many problems, as another muslim i am requesting Wikipedia to remove these pictures of our prophet as this is very offensive to the entire muslim community at large! Muhammed could be described as long as its accurate but this is an extreme offense! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.219.145.253 (talk) 06:41, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Please see the replies above and do not create new sections. Thank you. clicketyclickyaketyyak 09:30, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is encycolpedic, and will not show favortism to any religion. For example, if we removed the images of Muhammad, then that would be showing favortism to Islam over Christianity because we still show images of Jesus. But if we removed all images of Muhammed and Jesus, then we will be showing favoritism to other religions like Buddhism by showing images of Buddha. And if we remove all images of Muhammed, Jesus, and Buddha, then we would be showing favoritism to Islam and Christianity, because images of Buddha are very important to Buddhist. You can see that we have no choice but to uphold the Wikipedia policy of showing depictions of all subjects of a biography article. --MahaPanta (talk) 04:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This issue has been brought up before in [2] as well.petedavo (talk) 05:04, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I wonder if it would be do-able to add a special attribute to images (maybe a very specific HTML comment in the caption?) which some Muslims might find offensive, and then have a bot-generated copy of the page that omits those images, and then put a link between the two pages at the top? That would hopefully satiate those who find such images offensive, without compromising our core policies. Lankiveil (talk) 07:06, 16 December 2007 (UTC).
That sounds like a comprimise to me. --MahaPanta (talk) 14:49, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

we as Muslims have not received any picture of our prophet, unlike christians for example, they have drawings of Jesus in every Church, so please do not compare us to christians, it's not acceptable at all to show these pictures, no human being will ever be able to copy Muhammed, even these pictures are historically recorded, but still can not be used in the difinition of Muhammed, please understand this, many non muslim will visit this page we do not want them to see Islam this way, we want to show the true Islam, and in true Islam we do not have any pictures of Muhammed.

if you go to the Arabic version of Wiki and see Muhammed's page you will not find any picture! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abboodeh (talk • contribs) 02:45, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe we should add some, or are the rules different for the Arabic wikipedia? If they are that's nifty but the rules here say that we include images in biographies and that we don't cater to specific religions. RecentlyAnon (talk) 00:15, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

wikipedia says "some articles may include objectionable text, images, or links if they are relevant to the content (such as the articles about the penis and pornography) and do not violate any of our existing policies (especially neutral point of view)", this is good, but what about the correctness of information.putting these illustrations of prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) gives a wrong information that muslims have drawings of prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) which is not true. so you have to remove the pictures containing the illustrations or if you didn't do that, then a least make a clarification or qoute or add another section saying that the image is not true and in islam it is prevented to draw prophet MUHAMMAD (PBUH) and no one made a copy of him. this is if wikipedia do care about the correctness of information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nagibcs (talk • contribs) 12:53, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Images

Images posted are totally irrelevant to the article,wrongly quoted,and fake,they are not medieval ages pictures and have no relevancy to the article.Stop using wikipedia to set your personal scores. I am removing them..IF you have any doubts,please discuss on this page

Ther French National Library says they are authentic, is there any reason to doubt them. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 02:21, 20 December 2007 (UTC)


I'm sorry if I wrote in the wrong place.. But I totally agree that some of the pictures are fake and I wish someone can remove it.. I tried to search for someone who have the authority to do so but I don't know who to contact.

Alkami.h (talk) 14:21, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Second picture

I'm sure that there's a reason since it's been like this since February, but why has the second picture been stretched to show only the Kaʿbah instead of the Kaʿbah and a veiled Muhammad as the caption describes?Rdr0 (talk) 04:30, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I reverted the changes that distorted the image and removed the figure. As far as I know there wasn't a good reason to censor the image and it might have violated the GFDL. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 04:35, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Cool, thanks. I normally would have been bold, but I'm not a regular contributor and the image situation in this article is so tense that I was worried I might accidentally set off World War III. Rdr0 (talk) 05:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

create a new article "illustration depicting Muhammad"

I think the topic of removal Illustrations of Muhammad(PBUH) has gone to long and we should finish it with making a new topic and change then name of this topic "History about Muhammad" if admins of wikipdia want to keep these illustrations, as every body knows that almost all illustrations comes from Shi'a branch of Islam that is a small minority and majority of them are also against this illustrations. because this article is part of "Series on Islam" that mean every reader will think that it represent Islam but in reality it is not! we can place a link for such thing in also read or all positions where current illustrations are. I know these Illustrations are reality but that is bad reality and we should not hide it but try to contain it with proper care just like nuclear wast.

--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 04:49, 22 December 2007 (UTC)
See Depictions_of_Muhammad. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 04:51, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

thanks for that that answer my one query but second query is still there i am backing by request with a petition [click to see Petition], I am also against censor but still book are rated. --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 05:02, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

This article is about Muhammad in general and should stay that way. It includes views of Muhammad from numerous groups including those that created images of him, this page should not cater to one specific view point, that is the definition of neutral point of view. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 02:35, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
this article is not about some man you can treat like this. and it can provoke a big trouble for wikipeia organisation. and you are provoke and carrying an agenda of a specific group, so only request admins to move all illustrations to a portion and put a link in also read poriton that will do. and surve the wikipedia. if u think see this petition [ http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia]--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 12:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Please see my comments below. MARussellPESE (talk) 23:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Your argument is absolutely wrong! because these illustrations are just imaginations and belong from a band group with in Muslims, so if u thing then we should put some very bad illustrations of other leaders but u will not do that, i believe you Christians are doing this in to provoke a uprise within Muslims and wikipedia in a place for knowledge not to fight so cool your religious or offensive motives and remove the illustrations. Faraz Ahmad (talk) 23:57, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, so we're getting into conspiracy theories now? First of all, MarussellPESE is not a christan, and neither am I. Like I said, this is not an islamic encyclopedia, it does not conform to islamic law. Zazaban2 (talk) 00:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I did not say that any body of you is Christian, i just give an example. and its not about Islamic law, its about the freedom to express truth, i know Muslim editors are in minority on Wikipedia and non Muslim editors are pushing to express there view of Islam under the non sensor and policies banner. this is misleading and i can't let it happen--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 05:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

I think this article could use more images

They would really enrich the encyclopedic experience. --NEMT (talk) 22:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

What kind of images you want, because there is not authentic images of Muhammad(PBUH), so we can only put images of Madeena and the grave of Muhammad(PBUH).Faraz Ahmad (talk) 01:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

please remove the pictures

please remove the pictures that show prophet mohamed's face,these pics are offensive to us as muslems,in this page you can find more than 14,000 signatures from people demanding the removal of these pictures

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/removal-of-the-pics-of-muhammad-from-wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kashwaa (talk • contribs) 01:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. See WP:CENSOR. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 01:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

please remove the pic for mohamed this pic too bad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.71.37.61 (talk) 02:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed.

Everybody should respect our religion.

these phots are not accepted —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.187.13.60 (talk) 05:21, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not censored. Your superstition is not an acceptable reason to degrade the quality of wikipedia articles. If you're offended by images of muhammad you are not obligated to view them. I suggest you use Muslim Wiki instead. --NEMT (talk) 07:19, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree with your point of view, but describing certain Islamic beliefs as "superstition" is needlessly offensive and uncalled for. Please try to keep your cool. Lankiveil (talk) 02:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC).

Dear Wikipedia, Please remove all refer to our prophet Muhamed. This act is not acceptable at all. Please respect religions, Wikipedia is a good encyclopedia and we respect its site, and we expect that Wikipedia doing the same. thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Amirag (talk • contribs) 05:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.221.243 (talk) 08:49, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

dear sir I AM REFUSE TO BUT PICTURE TO OUR Prophet MOHAMED IN YOUR PAGES PLEASA REMOVE IT

AHMED —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.36.128.243 (talk) 09:30, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Please remove all photos refer to our prophet Muhammed —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmanzur (talk • contribs) 14:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

No. This is not an islamic encyclopedia. Zazaban2 (talk) 22:20, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Please see my comments below. MARussellPESE (talk) 23:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
We know wikipedia is not sensored but it should arrange its material according to there merit. and only expert on articles should edit them not some freek and anti religion person. this article is about Muhammad(PBUH) and is part of Islamic topics so it should represent only islamic view of Muhammad(PBUH) if you want to add your bullshit create another article and put your material there. other wise stop calling wikipedia as a free encyclopedia, and its distribution in schools so next generation can be saved from your evil motives. Faraz Ahmad (talk) 02:44, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Please remember to remain civil. I realise that this may be frustrating to you, and I do sympathise, however using inflammatory language like that will not get anyone anywhere. Lankiveil (talk) 02:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC).
No, we should portray it from a Neutral point of view, not the islamic point of view. I don't think you understand wikipedia guidelines. Please look them up. Zazaban2 (talk) 02:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I am trying to be as polite as i could, but i am trying to show the actual facts in my words. because i did not see any of you expert on any topics you are tying to moderate. I know Wikipedia guidelines and also understand the long time effects of Wikipedia. and my struggle to neutralize long term effects of this editing. As Wikipedia is used in Schools and by young student as first stop for knowledge your misguided views can damage the reality of a Religion. As happened with other religions. i hope you get this point and try to separate points. i am also against censorship but will not support damage of a religion.
  • also one non related point in first statement "Muhammad was the founder of Islam" i think it should say "Muhammad is the founder of Islam"

--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 04:42, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Nobody said it's an Islamic Encyclopedia; however, it doesn't need to be Islamic to respect Islam, and it doesn't need to be Chrestian to respect Chrestianity. Sir, the matter of respect is not tied to certain religion. If you feel that the encyclopedia is hurting Chrestians in any way, it's your full right to express that and request to change it.

What I want to say here is that such pictures for Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) do really hurt all Muslims all over the world. And if this encyclopedia really aims at being the most popular, reliable, and neutral one, it should care about the feelings and beliefs of 1/6 of the world popluation.Ossama Rashed (talk) 07:46, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Determining what is "respectful" and what is offensive can come down to a very fine line. To some, the lack of honorary blessings is also "offensive" or disrespectful. For example, "Chrestians" is offensive to me- does that seem unreasonable? Please understand that- as we have already seen- many Muslims don't have a problem with images, and indeed, the majority of the images of Muhammad that I have seen were created by Muslims themselves. On that point, you are incorrect. Your own plea for neutrality is incongruent with the request for censorship: Wikipedia is not censored, and certainly not in the interest of respect of religion.--C.Logan (talk) 09:01, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I want to know just how does the two Islamic depictions of Muhammad "hurt all Muslims"? The first depicts him kneeling before the Kaaba as if he was in prayer. The other images show him teaching his message to others. Neither of these images depicts Muhammad in an unflattering or vulgar manner. Just because a depiction of a person is a taboo in one culture doesn't mean it is taboo for all, especially when the taboo is mostly a modern invention. And if there are Muslims who are simply offended because there are depictions of Muhammad to begin with, we just point them to our content disclaimer. --Farix (Talk) 14:31, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

none

we must remove it NOW .. please remove that picture, it is not allowed for us to put such things..

Wikipedia is not an islamic encyclopedia. There is no rule that says we cannot put that picture there. Zazaban2 (talk) 22:46, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not censored. The pictures in the article are tasteful and from Islamic sources. Historically here on WP illustrations are intended to enhance the reader's experience. If an reader considers an illustration to be offensive, then present an argument, and seek consensus on a case-by-case basis for the illustrations. Arguments that "The mere presences of this picture is offensive to us" will not pass muster. MARussellPESE (talk) 23:34, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
Your actions are provocative and base on hate not for knowledge, so if you really want to put these illustrations on wikipedia just put a link is "see also" section of the topic Faraz Ahmad (talk) 00:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
There is absolutely no problem with the way things are set up now. The pictures are staying. Zazaban2 (talk) 00:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You might not has problem but lot of other people has, and we are determine for a change its not your wikipedia its a open source so all views should be respected specially the concerned party. if you don't know how to treat sensitive issues then you has no right to discuss them. Muhammad(PBUH) is the most special person in Human history and this article need to show that.Faraz Ahmad (talk) 02:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, Wikipedia is not censored. Also please dont say that Muhammad is the most special person in human history. Only a fifth of the world believes that, I dont for example. But as someone said, this is not about religious differences, its about policies. Read the link before I gave you. Also, not all muslims find pictures of Mohammad offensive. Just read that link. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 04:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not making that up this is an undisputed fact that Muhammad(PBUH) is the greatest person in history[1] and u can not dictate lie against policies. on the contrary you has no right to edit this article. as you are an ex-Muslim(nothing personal), i know for sure that all Muslims found pictures with face shown offensive, --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 05:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It's absurd to state that anyone is undisputedly the most special person in history. Christians will dispute that, Jews will dispute that, Baha'is will dispute that, pretty much every non-muslim will dispute that. Zazaban2 (talk) 05:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Faraz, how do I not have any right to edit this article? Whether someone is a muslim or a non-muslim is of no importance here. Wikipedia policies are. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 05:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
@Zazaban2:I provided the refrence and i did not write that encyclopedia or not some un-matured person, so much evidence can be provided to support that argument.

@Matt57: Because of your personal experience you are tended to be anti. there are some issues that are not mention in policies. and you people are also not following them by pushing your agenda.--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 07:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

To be totally honest, your the one pushing an agenda, not us. Zazaban2 (talk) 07:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
The reference Ahmad provided does not say that Muhammad was the "greatest person in history" it says he "was one of the great figures in history." To say that the article should show that he is the most "special person in history" is as far from a nuetral point of view as you can get. --Daniel J. Leivick (talk) 07:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You can play this game of denial as long as u wish. yes i am fighting for a agenda but my motive is improvement and respect. not just denial and provoking hate. --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 07:45, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
You claim your motive is respect, but you have not shown any of us any respect the entire time you've been talking here. How are we in denial? How are we provoking hate? Zazaban (talk) 07:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I did not say anything about your religion or your believe. go and read the article you will see so many disputes about contents and neutrality, and when ever i put one on the top you people delete that. in the discussion uncountable requests to remove such material but all requests ware declined because all admin posts are filled by non Muslims. and majority of material is from western sources and even then contradict other big encyclopedias and biographies in west.--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 08:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
So, you're not accepting decisions because the admins are not muslim? Uh.... On a completely unrelated note, I think this has long since earned it's place on WP:LAME. Zazaban (talk) 08:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Now you are making up stuff, and paling blame game. i said that even non muslim(wester) writers of this article contradict other others in west who write about Islam or Muhammad. yes it is obvious to alarmed when other people take such deep interest in non related matters. --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 08:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I apoligise, it can be very hard to understand the point you are trying to get across sometimes. Zazaban (talk) 08:36, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Wait Wait, Did I *JUST* hear somebody say 'its an undisputed fact that muhammed is the greatest person in history'? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.218.222.194 (talk) 03:57, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

none

i am sorry

Thanks a lot for hearing us and also for your patience and our conversation is only just a view we Leaves to you Freedom Disposition and a Freedom discretion about it .. but we hope to remove it and finally thanks again .

Arbitration Request created

I has created an Arbitration request this topic so top level administration in Wikipedia can be involved in this sensitive topic. you can see that can contribute in so your opinion can count Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Muhammad
--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 03:18, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

This has been discussed to death over and over again. This nowhere near warrants a arbitration, the decision was made long before you showed up. Zazaban2 (talk) 03:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this has already been resolved. I can't remember exactly where I read it. What's the best link to give someone relating to policy re images of Muhammad? AliveFreeHappy (talk) 03:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Several masses of long debates in the archives. Zazaban2 (talk) 03:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I already has gone through all previous discussion and i thing it was discussed between a majority of non Muslims oppressing and targeting Muslims. i did not find any common ground reached in previous discussions about Pictures, Illustrations or material in this topic. this is a anti Muslim version of article forced on readers by majority no Muslims editors of Wikipedia. --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 03:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
No new arguments have been introduced that have not already been resolved. There is no need for arbitration, it will be fruitless. This action is a violation of WP:POINT, please allow us to edit the article constructively and move on from this sophomoric debate that goes nowhere. --Strothra (talk) 03:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Faraz, cease your personal attacks now. Assuming a victim mentality and declaring your opponents to be "oppressing and targeting Muslims" will not advance your argument. Read WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. --Strothra (talk) 03:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I did not see common grounds reached what i can see i a continues request to remove hate material and denial from other group, and both groups are divided on religious lines. why i only allow you people to edit this article and then say its a article about Islam but in reality its just represent bulk non Islamic views of Muhammad(PBUH). and already Wikipedia size limit is exceeded on this article so my suggestion is to make to articles out of it. one Islamic view of Muhammad(PBUH) and other Contemporary view of Muhammad there you people can put what ever you wish other --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 04:30, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Faraz, read this carefully. Simply put again, Wikipedia is not censored for religious sensitivity. This is a core policy. Also remember that not all Muslims find images of Muhammad offensive, so please let it go. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 04:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Faraz, you continuously draw divisive lines by making statements such as "you people" and calling edits "hate material." Such behavior is not conducive to constructive editing - Wikipedia is supposed to be a community of editors working together. We are all editors here and most of us are not divided along religious lines, but are simply working within Wiki policy. If you wish to change the policy, this article is not the correct place to do so. To change policies, you should discuss them on the talk pages of the respective policies such as WP:CENSOR. --Strothra (talk) 04:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for giving me link of WP:CENSOR talk page. but i only talk about what i see here. and i am not insisting to WP:CENSOR anything i am saying to separate both views so readers can distinguish between both views, current article is cocktail of views, confusing and distractive for new readers. i think we can make a pole here and the rule of pole could be
  • name of user
  • believe Muslim or Non Muslim
  • vote Yes to change or No to cahnge

then we can decide what is the line of devide
--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 04:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, sorry, this has been done before. We cant keep doing this every 3 months or thats all we'll keep doing. Read the past archives. Realize that the same situation will happen if another "poll" is taken. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 04:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

thanks Matt57 for that reference it reads "The issue surrounding depictions of Muhammad on Wikipedia has been of considerable dispute. Some users argue that such images which may be highly inflammatory to some Muslim readers should not be used, or should be used lightly at the very least. Others disagree with this sentiment on the basis that Wikipedia is not censored and that the images are acceptable as they don't offend "typical" Wikipedia readers." its says some Muslims but in reality all Muslims do and they are over a Billion in this world. i did not say that to oppress others but pinpoint where these statements are faulty and misrepresent facts. but i can see the result of that pole clearly --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 05:01, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

The reality is that we've all behaved ourselves and the Arbitration Committee will reject such a case as a "content issue" - apart from other reasons. WilyD 05:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Am I correct to say that Faraz is engaging in off-wiki canvassing? He has this petition with 15,000 signatures which explains all the people coming in to remove the picture. I think he should either stop editing here or take down that petition, correct? --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 05:08, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I am not taking town that petition and i am not doing editing or undo like any other. check the history of article. i am just trying to make a point and trying to tell you all to respect others so they respect you. if you thing arbitration committee will reject the request then why are u people trying to stop me, if in case they reject then i will use other mean like i will take Wikipedia into court to resolve this issue, that petition is a clear indicator who much damage is done by Wikipedia to let such things happen.--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 05:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Fine, do the arbitration if it will make you happy. But whatever they say WILL be final. Understand? Zazaban2 (talk) 05:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Faraz, I removed the legal threat you made to Wikipedia, which typically results in a block but since you're new so now you know. Anyway this is not an issue of respect, its a matter of censorship. The fact that you made this petition and are causing these people to come to Wikipedia to remove the images will not help you much.--Matt57 (talk•contribs) 05:50, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I put the threat back, there's no point in censoring somebody's post. If he wants to make threats, let him, he has to deal with that happens after. Zazaban2 (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 06:03, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
By the way Faraz, I highly doubt any court will take your case. This has been decided upon again and again and again, it's like trying to taking somebody who's been elected to office with an overwhelming several times to court on the grounds you personally do not like him. Zazaban2 (talk) 06:07, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It is your personal opinion, in reality is not just personal matter its about a religion, culture and most of all a case of more then a billion people. i am making saying any thing but just using ........., what a power of people can do. and one thing is sure all one billion agree on this point. I personally believe some people are still in this world who respect others. --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 06:20, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not talking about the world in general, I'm talking about right here. As of now you're the only person in opposition to the pictures. You're outvoted. You have your petition, but can europeans vote for an american president? Zazaban (talk) 07:29, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
  • Faraz Ahmad, if the ArbCom declines to hear an arbitration request, what will you do? What if they rule against you; will you accept their decision or will you continue to lobby for change? Lankiveil (talk) 07:33, 26 December 2007 (UTC).
I am also talking about here the Wikipedia as it effect the life of all people who read it, i am not a single person, read the archive and u will find the request to remove the picture, you answer your question does a non-Muslim will write an honest view about the Prophet of Islam, when followers of that prophet are in state of war with other non believers. i regard this as a cyber crusade. i will lobby for change, but before arbitration i will check the ArbCom members because this is a complex world --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 07:41, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, but they are still outnumbered. Sybercrusade eh? Zazaban (talk) 07:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

"i regard this as a cyber crusade" ...do we really need to hear anything else? --NEMT (talk) 07:46, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

No, I'm going to notify and admin. Zazaban (talk) 07:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I think the policies which have been demonstrated are clear enough. Wikipedia is not censored, and it certainly does not cater to religious demands. There is no obligation to Wikipedia or any of its editors to remove these pictures. Those without such strict religious obligations might actually learn something from these pictures; last I'd checked, that's the reason people turn to encyclopedias in the first place. It's clear that the issue is beyond settled.--C.Logan (talk) 07:56, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It's also clear that Faraz Ahmad is never going to back down no matter what we say. Zazaban (talk) 07:57, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
It's worth mentioning that Faraz Ahmad has also been, with less attention, trying to POV push Nazi agenda and holocaust denial. Zazaban (talk) 08:00, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I think then Wikipedia and its editors has no right to offend others Religion and to undermine there right in a large society. i am not asking to remove the pictures but to move them in a separate section and keep them there so they serve there purpose. because i regard the current view as aggressive and Wikipedia require neutral and consensus. but i did not see any of them here. only one group think its settled and give no weight to other opinion, its also against Wikipedia's policies. I will only back down when a trust worthy conclusion is reached. NEMT its literal crusade go and read the definition.--Faraz Ahmad (talk) 08:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
And I assume you get to determine what a trust-worthy conclusion is? Zazaban (talk) 08:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
NO, i can't because i am pushing for this change only the readers or scholar will determine. and Wikipedia will stop receiving such requests --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 08:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't quite understand what you're getting at. Zazaban (talk) 08:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Also, you may want to check out what's happening over at your disscussions in Talk:Adolf Hitler and Talk:Holocaust. Zazaban (talk) 08:31, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Your answer on Talk:Adolf Hitler has really exposed you, one one topic you are pushing for un-censorship but on the other forcing censorship. that will really help me in final discussion thanks for reminding me --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 08:37, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Calling somebody a hero is clearly unencyclopedic. It's not censorship. Zazaban (talk) 08:39, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
But i think encyclopedia is about facts or aspect about any topic? that is a fact although minor but worth mentioning --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 08:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOTE. Zazaban (talk) 08:52, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I know these topics well and both of them are very popular and well discussed in African and Asian countries, but is censored in Europe and America by laws. I read so many articles on such topics back in home country but i know Europeans will deny that --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 09:06, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
So, do you think that Hitler was a hero? Zazaban (talk) 09:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Please, it's not our discussion. As a professional editor, you should concentrate on the topic under discussion. We have nothing to do with Hilter here! Again, not being censored does never justify being offensive! What a 1/6 of the world population see as offensive should be so! no matter on what basis do they judge this as being so. Guys, we need to live in a world of cooperation, peace and respect. Not choosing this option will lead us to an enless loop of hate and conflicts. Let's understand this very well and remove the pictures please! Ossama Rashed (talk) 08:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Thant is my personal opinion and depend what aspect of his life we are discussing, i think we should stay on course and discuss the topic we are debating --Faraz Ahmad (talk) 09:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Please try not to incriminate yourself with extremist opinions. Hitler is certainly a great figure in history, but the manner in which you are expressing seemingly laudatory opinions of the man without justification makes you appear rather warped, and this certainly hurts your case. It's best to keep these opinions to yourself (if not to drop them entirely).--C.Logan (talk) 09:55, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is the proof ??

The claimed picture has no proofs , and the other people in that strange paint are all look alike , so why wikipedia insists to keep the picture .. its not in any way related to Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , i don't think that the administartors will keep the picture , they'll remove it soon , if they are honest with theirself .. and despite that we know the characteristics of Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , but it is prohibited to try to draw This characteristics to shape even a close imagination of his Holy Person. So stop argue about this "Mr wiki admins" , so you dont loss our trust ..

ISLAM is PEACE
--Basem3wad (talk) 20:43, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Clicking on the image gives the information which you are requesting. The picture does indeed depict what the article says it does. Additionally, please note that Wikipedia is not censored, and is an objective project- catering to religious beliefs is not something that the encyclopedia is entitled to do. No one is forcing you to look at the picture; not everyone has the same religious obligations as you do. It's akin to asking someone to stop selling alcohol because you are obligated to abstain from it. I, for one, am interested to see the depictions of Muhammad in Persian and Indian art.--C.Logan (talk) 22:35, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
About the source , its not a verified source, its a French website , that has nothing to do with islam , and this site claims that the picture is from the book "Al-Bîrûnî, al-âthâr al-bâqiya" , i'll review the book sunday Dec 12 2007 , And if the book contains nothing about this image , then the French site will be asked about this , and the reasons behind it, also you will remove the image , and also you need to listen to us not only to argue us , we only seeking the truth , and tell me how in the world that image can be true , it even does not look like a baby paint , these information on wikipedia does not give any helpful information about prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , because you need thousands of pages to tell about him.
and asking me just not to look at the picture, is a stupid solution , do you think you solved the problem ?? and since wikipedia is not censored, then it is not trust worthy anymore.

No need to remind you that we don't need to have religious obligations to ask wikipedia to remove untrue ,untrusted , and uneeded pictures or articles on the wiki pages , maybe you can't see that a new trusted encyclopedia will face the wikipedia , but which is more developed than this used one, YES , its been used by those who knows nothing but hate to other religions , cultures , those who want to give the picture they want about what they want , your way in discussing this article shows that you're NOT neutral , & that you hang on to your mind despite of the thousands of explanations from us , and the thousands of signatures of just who knew about this article , check this petition Remove it wiki and keep your interest to yourself , you're so far from the scientific honesty. this article will give a bad reputation about wikipedia , and it will make wikipedia just a place where you can find a little information to seek the truth , not the place where you can find the truth , this encyclopedia will fall down , if you do not give attention to a billion Muslim , with many non-muslims , who objects to your policy. --Basem3wad (talk) 18:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Please see this site. You have to be aware that the illustration of Muhammad has not been taboo in every culture under Muslim influence. The Persians created many illustrations on this subject, and al-Biruni illustrated Muhammad specifically in the book in question (the site concerns an exhibition of the illustrations).
Also, please relax. When you say "how in the world that image can be true", it makes me worried that you don't understand concepts like illustrative representation. This intrigues me, because it may be a cultural misunderstanding produced by the iconoclasm in your particular region/division of Islam (presumably Sunni?). Representations are extremely important in the Western concept of learning. Visualization goes far beyond anything which descriptive text could allow. The images are not intended to be accurate; at least, they make no claim to do so. When I see the Pantokrator in church on Sunday, I do not expect it to be an accurate picture of Jesus. It is a representation which facilitates my understand of a particular aspect or act.
I'd have to second Strothra's concern below me. You misunderstand the value of anti-censorship rules and regulations; as it is, I can't appreciate your sentiment in any way.
Most of the rest of your post makes little sense, I'm sorry to say. I would suggest that you cease wasting time promoting that petition, because it really doesn't make a difference- we already know the objections and who objects to it- seeing signatures by Muslims is redundant, because we are aware of the iconoclastic viewpoints of a portion of Muslims.
Please do not go into some long rant concerning Wikipedia's worthlessness in your opinion. As of this moment, it appears that you are claiming that Wikipedia is not truthful or trustworthy because it does not censor an image that proves to be informative, inoffensive to the vast majority of the world's population, and in truth, created by a Muslim in the first place.
If a lack of censorship equates to a lack of trustworthiness (as you apparently claim), then I'm afraid that you are severely misguided- I don't believe the encyclopedia is going to change any policies for someone who can make such an absurd statement in all seriousness. As far as I can see, you misunderstand Western society, and the sort of freedoms which we appreciate; freedoms, as it is, that we have incorporated into this encyclopedia. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but I'd rather you not waste your time by using an entirely alien system of reasoning.--C.Logan (talk) 00:09, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
You Need to watch your words too , there is no need to insult me by such a words, you'll be always beyond knowledge like most western people whom repeating phrases and words just like parrots ,anything you said will not change the fact that we Muslims ,does not trust your wiki anymore ,and for those who want to know about Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) , they will not refer to such an absurd Encyclopedia , By the way , Keep it Locked ,Because its Obvious that you have no scientific honesty , saying that internet resources are enough resources to Document a life of the Greatest Mankind Ever been on earth , These words is By Your Non-Muslims chroniclers,Like: 1.Bernard Shaw who said That Mohammad is the humanity savior and more ,2.Tolstoy , 3.Thomas Carlyle , 4.Michael Heart , 5.Arnold Toynbee and a lot more , another thing Mr " Clever " you know .. since i'm FOOLISH , why the wikipedia deleted the Arabic discussion about Mohammed (PBUH) ??? and why there is this word in the article " Tradition " , "According to their tradition " , like you're trying to say that Islam is a culture not a religion , you racial actions shows nothing but that you're not accurate , and since there is no trusted admins from all around the world ,then this is not a free encyclopedia , and since it obeys its anonymous admins pleases , put your dirty hands off our religion , you're not helping , this is not the right way to live hand in hand in peace , these actions will not lead but to violence ,any kind of violence is rejected even the words violence , specially when it concerns holy beliefs,this wiki is just increasing the hole between religions and cultures and people around the world,Islam Is PEACE ,So stop accusing Muslims ( real Muslims ) and do not Judge us through fake claimed Muslims, and check out Who is Mohammad (PBUH) before you do such insults To US,Finally Delete this article is much better , since it is all not accurate depending on week resources .
--Basem3wad (talk) 02:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
"since wikipedia is not censored, then it is not trust worthy anymore"????? You make me appreciate the fact that I live in the West - thank you. --Strothra (talk) 18:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh .. so do you believe in the ultimate freedom ?? do you believe that no rules should control us ?? means that no rules must control such an arbitrary encyclopedia , which is a place for anybody , even psycho to play with ??? so what are you saying ??
Besides .. you left everything i talked about and you just hold on to this sentence , well.. this makes ME appreciate that i'm not living in YOUR west !!
--Basem3wad (talk) 19:11, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Because, my friend, you introduced no new ideas that have not already been discussed to death and decided upon. Rules are necessary in a civilized society, yes. However, censorship is one rule that makes a society less civilized because it suppresses those who live within it. No such "society" can exist in the long term for it will foment revolution among the masses particularly when that censorship is divided along religious sectarian lines. It is for this reason that we do not respect censorship. --Strothra (talk) 20:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
The images are part of Islamic tradition... and Islamic tradition is what is represented here to a great extent. I was one of the editors who thought that the tradition of images was over represented but that does not mean it is not a valid tradition. Not all Muslims throughout history have believed it was improper to draw Muhammad. Many have. The article should make that clear. gren グレン 23:26, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Indeed; this is an important fact that is often forgotten. Some people may be generally surprised to note the Islam is not monolithic in many of its seemingly "essential" beliefs; I happened to spot a picture of some U.S. soldiers in an Iraqi home which had a very large hagiographic painting of Muhammad hung above their couch.--C.Logan (talk) 23:48, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Muhammad is enormously important outside of Islam as well, which is necessarily represented as well. While we (necessarily) dwell extensively on his importance to Islam, outside of Islam he's still incredibly important. WilyD 01:42, 27 December 2007 (UTC)


Well , if you want to write about Islam and Muslims, its not you who should do so , you have no right to claim things about Islam and Muslims while you are not even a Muslim , even if you are a Muslim you should be verified as someone who has the proper knowledge to talk about Islam , so to all of this site administrators , you lost the trust , you have no right to close this article and you have no right to put such allegations . and if you want to see a little reaction to this article which you claim that it has been reviewed and It has wide acceptance among editors and is considered a standard that all users should follow , you can check out the objections of some of us who knew about your illegal article just go to this link and see some of the reactions , then you might think again of your reply.Removal Of the pics from wikipedia--Basem3wad (talk) 16:08, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

We have every right! Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Objectivity is one of the most important things to consider when creating an encyclopedia, or any other work which claims neutrality. Wikipedia makes such a claim. The encyclopedia endeavors to include views both from within Islam and from those who exist outside of the religion.
Unfortunately, it would seem that your own solution has its flaws as well. You repeatedly ignore the fact that your own iconoclastic views are not universal, even within the religion itself (these pictures are evidence of that in and of themselves). Nobody has to be an expert to add anything to the encyclopedia; they merely have to depend upon sources. The reliability of the sources is one of the deciding factors when considering the inclusion of a particular piece of information.--C.Logan (talk) 00:17, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
The petition is meaningless garbage and POV pushing which will have no affect on Wikipedia. You are also borderline trolling with your assertions that only Muslims have the authority and credentials to write articles on Islam on Wikipedia. --Farix (Talk) 16:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
maybe you need to watch your words before you expect me to talk to you.
--Basem3wad (talk) 18:59, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Do remain civil, please. The simple fact is that there are no prohibitions on Wikieida to depict historically significant persons. Muhammad is undoubtedly one such historical person. The taboo on images of Muhammad is purely a cultural one, one that has only been bantered about recently, but not it's one that Wikipedia is obligated to follow. In fact, is shouldn't enforce such taboos runs contrary to Wikipedia's own censorship policies and content disclaimers. --Farix (Talk) 19:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Even Though i think you really should read this civil, But i wont lose anything to show you the following,
Since there are no prohibitions , then i can make a page about someones father , with a draw that puts him on a dog body ?? ha?? ,since there are no prohibitions , then you can tell that Christians are animals , and since there are no prohibitions , then we can say that wikipedia is place where mixed untrusted and untrue articles is written , ???
and since there are no prohibitions , then why should we live like we do , lets steal ,cheat , lie , kill and eat each other ..Remember "Since there are no prohibitions" ..
in a matter of fact , those people who signed the petition thought that wikipedia respects the others beleifes and can write articles since its not in any way disrespect others , otherwise it has no difference than any racial community that are opinionated .
so if wikipedia are such a community ,then let them Publish that they are along with their policies.--Basem3wad (talk) 19:37, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
But wikipedia isn't such a community. We are one however that insists on having relavent pictures in our articles. Theresa Knott | The otter sank 19:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm always troubled to see people mock rules and beliefs that they don't even understand. Wikipedia understands the taboo on images in some Islamic cultures, but disregards it in the interest of free speech and the transmission of relevant information to anyone else so inclined to learn about this subject.
To respond to your scenario: no, you can't make a page about someone's father unless that particular individual meets the notability guidelines. WP:BLP determines strict rules concerning the creation and editing of articles which pertain to living persons. Additionally, defamatory images are generally not tolerated unless the image has particular relevance and notability; a political cartoon mocking the president, for example, may be permissible. Your illustration would not because of several reasons, most clearly your own lack of notability and the image's lack of notability. An illustration of an individual is perfectly fine, as long as it satisfies the inclusion guidelines- which includes specifics concerning defamatory images.
Wikipedia is also not a place for personal opinions: no editor is allowed to submit his or her own opinion or personal judgment into the article text. On the other hand, if a person of notability and relevance to the subject manner made such a statement, then it can be included. For instance, a statement expressing that the contributions of Muhammad to the world brought only negative consequences would not be allowed as an editor's opinion, but as a quotation of Manuel II Paleologus (note the recent controversy with the Pope and these statements), it is certainly allowed and notable within the relevant context.
The rest of your musing on the "lack of prohibitions" only makes you look foolish. There is no room for such fallacious logic in this discussion, and it would be appreciated if you considered the arguments and suggestions of Wikipedia editors who are familiar with the policies in question.--C.Logan (talk) 00:34, 29 December 2007 (UTC)