Talk:Muhammad Ali of Egypt

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[edit] Name of article

This article needs better disambiguation from Muhammad Ali than using an archaic spelling. How about Muhammad Ali, pasha of Egypt like in [1] ? ( 20:29, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)

This article could really use some work. It certainly needs details; other than the years he lived not a single date or year is given at all. If I knew more of the details of his life I'd fix the article myself, but it's been a while since I read anything about him. Anyone care to help? -R. fiend 21:27, 13 Jun 2004 (UTC)

There was some silliness from 216.20.3.18 that has been removed. I left the one sentence that seemed to be useful: "Egypt became a powerful modernized, Industrial force in the Middle East."

I've been editing the existing entry, and re-writing for greater detail and clarity. More to come when there is time. --Dgilman 03:48, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I guess it would help if the name of the article was "Mohammed Ali" as it is a more common spelling of the name "Mohammed" I had to search for it in Arabic at the Arabic Wiki in order to locate this English version of the article.

[edit] Muhammad Ali's Ancestors

It cannot be substantiated that Muhammad Ali's family originally came from Malayta. According to Prince Hassan Aziz Hassan in his book, In the House of Muhammad Ali, he mentions that he had never heard before that his ancestors were Kurdish and that he always knew them to be Albanian. So, for purposes in keeping the article to just what is known, some of the information should be removed or moved to a different section under the ethnicty section. User:Imperial78:Imperial78

I am removing the uncited claim that he is best considered an Albanian. The whole section on his ethnicity ought to make clear that claiming for him a modern ethnic nationality is an untenable enterprise. --Dgilman 06:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Most sources say he was Albanian and the descendants of Muhammad Ali themselves consider themselves Albanian. Here are some examples. Most of of Muhammad Ali's soldiers were Albanian. Albanians still live in Egypt today. King Fuad I of Egypt had originally wanted to be King of Albania (Egypt was a consolation prize!). King Farouk considered himself Albanian by ethnicity in many quotes. Prince Hassan Hassan's book mentions their Albanian origins. If everyone thinks they were Albanian, maybe because they were. Even in Sadat's widow's autobiography, she mentions how she never cared for their Albanian king or something to that effect. So, since wikipedia is about listing what is most commonly accepted, it should be put that Muhammad Ali was of mostly Albanian extraction, because that is where most of the evidence is. Yes he could Albanian, Macedonian, Bulgarian, Kurdish, Turkish, Greek, Circassian, Vlakh, Rom, Italian, Icelander, Goth, French, Vandal, Armenian, etc, etc, etc, but from what substantiated evidence we have, he was most likely Albanian. User:Imperial78:Imperial78
A funny story about King Farouk is when he visited Greece after he was overthrown. He went to restaurant and the Greek owner told him that he did not allow Turks or Arabs in his restaurant and Farouk said, "Hey, I am not an Arab or a Turk. I am an Albanian!" and he was let into the restaurant. User:Imperial78:Imperial78
The point about commonly accepted information seems fair, I grant you. What concerns me is the uncritical acceptance of an ethnic nationality that did not necessarily exist during Muhammad Ali's lifetime. While I am sure that his descendants consider themselves Albanian, I am less convinced that he would have seen himself this way as a primary identifier. Yes, he was of Albanian stock, and spoke Albanian, but it seems more to the point in the context of ruling Egypt that he was an Ottoman whose administration functioned primarily in the Ottoman Turkish language. (I should point out that I'm no Turkish nationalist, either.) Even if we now perceive Albanian ethnicity as a prime identifier, it was not necessarily the case in the Ottoman Empire, as User:Imperial78 observes. The re-write of the section is a good one, but it would be nice to have language in there that makes it clear that trying to say "He was really a Turk" or "He was really an Albanian" is not good historiography. --Dgilman 00:03, 12 December 2005 (UTC)
I see your point. It is just interesting to list someone's exact ethnicity to be as 100% accurate as one can be. Although one's religious affiliation was the primary divider in Ottoman times (probably to keep it simple since the Ottoman Empire had scores of ethnic groups), one's language was also still a factor. It is interesting to note that Christian and Muslim Albanians each had their own ensign flags. What's get more confusing is that by the time one gets to Farouk he has Albanian, Turkish, Circassian, and any number of other ethnicities in his background due to the fact that many of the Egyptian rulers of this dynasty married some Ottoman princesses. I have found an occasional source that Muhammad Ali's family originally was Kurdish, but in Prince Hassan Hassan's book he found it suspect since he never heard it before and didn't believe it himself (He was an expert on his family). Perhaps a connection to Saladin was the goal. I guess everyone wants to claim him. lol User:Imperial78:Imperial78

What is all this about Muhammad Ali being Albanian? Regardless of what his ethnic origin was, he spoke Turkish (Ottoman Turkish, quite different from modern Turkish), not Albanian, as did his dynasty throughout its existence. The military unit he commanded was composed mostly of Albanians; that is likely from where the misunderstanding comes. If any of the Khedival dynasty claimed to be Albanian it was because they were interested in the Albanian throne. You will not find any Middle Eastern sources that claim M.A. was Albanian, only Western, as in 19thc historiography nobody wanted to believe that a Turk could actually accomplish anything. In any case, this is largely irrelevant since Ottomans were more often than not of mixed heritage and M.A would have had nothing resembling a modern concept of ethnicity. If you find this important, than you need a source to back up the claim that he was Albanian, not rumor or anecdotes like the story about a Greek cafe.

I deleted the following section, which is patently untrue: "What is known is that he had Albanian origins from what can be gathered historically. He himself proclaimed to be an Albanian, he spoke Albanian and his soldiers and settlers were mostly Albanian. The descendants of Muhammad Ali have always considered themselves Albanians." and corrected the grammar of the previous sentence. - John

I am reverting it and we can discuss further changes because what was there is not written well (the last edit anyway). User:Imperial78:Imperial78

I have performed yet another edit on this section. I have patiently waited for months to hear what a verifiable historical source would be for the claim of Albanian nationality, and I remain empty-handed. The whole point of the section is to explain how nationalists of various groups attempt to hang labels on Muhammad Ali that he didn't use, and the repetitive references to Albanian ancestry effectively subvert this point. Then, too, there is the complete lack of substantiating information for this claim. I expect other Wikipedia editors to demonstrate a basic knowledge of and respect for the medium by providing documentation of historical claims, particularly ones under heavy debate. Until such documentation surfaces, I will make sure that the record stays straight that Muhammad Ali's ethnicity is of much greater interest to nationalists than to more impartial scholars. --Dgilman 22:33, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Kurdish origins!!! What a nonsens!!! Are you OK??????!!!!--Babaeski

[edit] New Muhammad Ali Dynasty Page Needed

I believe a page on the Dynasty of Muhammad Ali is needed. There can be more information on the ethnic makeup, list of rulers, etc. User:Imperial78:Imperial78

[edit] Rebellion against the Sultan

I've never seen anyone before claim that the official pretext for the 1831 invasion was protecting the Sublime Porte from Russia. Is there a source to back this up? I suppose stranger things have been said in the course of politics, but it seems more reasonable to think that Muhammad Ali started out by framing the invasion as a parochial quarrel between the pashaliks of Syria and Egypt. Plus, Khaled Fahmy documents the pretext of conscript repatriation very well. (See the citation for Fahmy 1997.) Besides, how would the wali have claimed to be protecting the Sultan when he spent half a year besieging Acre? I'm interested to hear more. --Dgilman 04:05, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Albanian origins

There will always be debate on his precise ethnic origins, most sources state is was of Albanian origins. The World Book Encyclopedia says Albanian. Biographies on various members of the Egyptian Royal family list Albanian. Also Prince Hassan Hassan's autobiography mentions Albanian. These are all newer sources. Azalea pomp 06:25, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stop Reverting

Those sources are mostly from the 1800s and my sources are more relevant as they are about members of the Muhammad Ali Dynasty also other encyclopedic articles located in World Book Encyclopedia list Albanian, not Greek Muslim. Azalea pomp 17:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

The references I initially provided coincide with the fact that he was of Greek descent, there are sources which contradict with this and say Albanian origins, in order to compy witht the WP:NPOV policy all relevant sides of a debate when referenced must be represented, including the mutual perspectives. If you read Wikipedia:No original research you will find that Wikipedia policy requires that you unconditionally accept what it verified in reliable sources providing that it is relevant. The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is whether material is attributable to a reliable published source, not whether we think it is true. Wikipedia is not the place to publish your opinions, experiences, or arguments. Wheather you acknowledge it or not, the references you removed comply with WP:RS and removing reliably sourced material is considered vandalism in wikipedia.

I have edited the article in a NPOV way that expresses both theories of Muhammad Ali’s ethnic background with citations included.. Dushkagjin 19:13, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I have included new sources which directly address either Muhammad Ali or his dynasty. You have included old sources which are not academic. Also, I have mentioned that other encyclopedias list his ethnicity as Albanian. You are violating policies as my sources are more reliable references. Your sources are not directly about the Muhammad Ali dynasty so therefore they are not primary sources. Azalea pomp 19:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] If was for the Greeks even Clinton is Greek ;)

I don't like to sterotype nor hate people from other countries. What I have seen in Wikipedia is that most of the Greeks want to Hellenize all the famous people.When it comes to Muhammad Ali of Egypt there is more than enough sources to say that his parents wore Albanian so was he, I read that he spoke Albanian too but din't know how to writte. BUT he fought, loved, dedicated all his life to Egypt so this is not an article for my Albania nor for Greece. Best of luck to all.

p.s. Don't forget people that he spoke Albanian,he lead an Albanian contingent sent against Bonaparte in Egypt 1799,landed at Aboukir(14th July 1799).Depending at first on his Albanian force and other heterogeneous troops, his army invaded the Sudan --Taulant23 22:47, 27 July 2007 (UTC)