Talk:Muhammad's first revelation
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[edit] Muhammad vs. Mohammad
I noticed that the article uses two different spellings for Mohammad's name. I am not sure which one is the correct one or, if both are, which is more preferred. Not being a Muslim I wouldn't want to make a change that could be disrespectful to Muslims. Any clarification would be appreciated. ---> Benseac 14:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Both are correct. However, mostly accepted spelling is Muhammad and many Muslim Govt. have offically adopted it. I suggest to change all Mohammad to Muhammad in the article. -- A. L. M. 14:25, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Thanks for the input. I'll make that change to standardize the name in the article. ---> Benseac 14:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- What about Mahomet? This appears to be the traditional form in most western languages. French and Polish wikis use it (see here and here), and Italians have a local variety, Maometto. Mohammad is closest to original Arabic, however, since a voiceless pharyngeal fricative triggers allophonic lowering of /u/ to /o/. Aminullah 19:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would think that for an English Wiki, the more "English" version of his name should be used. ---> Benseac 19:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Which is this "more English" form, then?Aminullah 19:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- There is no "English" version per se, but Muhammad is the most standard scholarly transcription.Proabivouac 19:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- That I can't answer, which is why I asked the initial question. There were two forms of his name in the article and, for the sake of consistency, I asked which one was the more correct. I don't know what the preferred spelling is in English and I didn't want to use a spelling that is less correct or accepted than another. If the choice that was decided is incorrect then by all means change it. ---> Benseac 19:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Which is this "more English" form, then?Aminullah 19:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- 2004 Oxford English dictionary gives Mahomet, Mohammed and Muhammad as equally acceptable. But Muhammad is most often used by Muslims themselves. Aminullah 14:09, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
- I would think that for an English Wiki, the more "English" version of his name should be used. ---> Benseac 19:44, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- What about Mahomet? This appears to be the traditional form in most western languages. French and Polish wikis use it (see here and here), and Italians have a local variety, Maometto. Mohammad is closest to original Arabic, however, since a voiceless pharyngeal fricative triggers allophonic lowering of /u/ to /o/. Aminullah 19:38, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the input. I'll make that change to standardize the name in the article. ---> Benseac 14:28, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Near-blanking by Proabivouac
Hi,
I agree that lot of the article was POV and OR before the massive removal of text (and BTW I've seen a lot of similarly low-quality Islam-related articles here), but some parts of it I think were not so bad. You removed a lot of what I assume are more or less facts (but then I don't know Islam well or eg. the differences between sunnah and shia), for example that the angel was Gabriel and that the message became the beginning of a chapter of Qur'an. Probably the tradition about what happened, too. I also fail to see how the title of this article could be POV.
If the article didn't contain outright misinformation in those issues, I don't think the way you stripped the article of its content is very helpful. Unless you dispute those claims, you probably should rather have marked them with {fact} or such. I'm not interested in the issue enough to pursue this issue further (I probably stumbled upon this article in a copyedit campaign to remove PBUH or such), but I would encourage you to consider this when making further similar edits. --SLi 20:15, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
- You'll note that large a number (though by no means all) of these articles were created by User:Striver, who uses very poor or no sources, and has a habit of setting views against one another, Muslim view vs. non-Muslim view, Shi'a view vs. Sunni view, etc., with him representing each one according to his own (for all we know) interpretations. Some time later, it seems, a Christian editor added his own unsourced nonsense. Besides POV, each of these passages (at least) is problematic and needs attribution and citation:
- Some theorists have suggested Muhammad's first revelation of the first two verses of Chapter 96 of the Qur'an is prophesied word by word in the Bible. Christians assure that that claimed revelation is not of divine origin which indeed is borne out by the fuller context of the verses referred to.
- While verses 11 and 12 may be descriptive of a claimed revelation such as Muhammad's, verse 13 clearly reveal the two prior verses as indicating a false prophet or prophets.
- The word "Iqra" does not have an exact English translation
- as in traditional cultures, reading silently to oneself was unheard of,
- Some Muslims regard this as a specific fulfillment of Isaiah 29:11-18
- Some non-Muslim are known to speculate regarding Muhammad's health as an explanation of the event.
- Muslims view this incident as no more extraordinary than the sea-splitting of Moses or the healings of Jesus. The narrative also supports the view that Muhammad never entertained any hope in being a prophet, as he feared for his life. Angels according to Islam are agents of God, and as such, they can but do his commands. Later success of his mission, notwithstanding the opposition of his own people and the great powers of the time, is also cited to prove the divine support to his mission. The word translated clot above has also been used in attempts to prove the divine inspiration of the Qur'an.
- Speaking generally, this notion that unsourced material should be left until sometime later it is improved is well-intentioned but misguided. Some will never be well-sourced, because it is false, or originates from unusable sources. Much is copyright violation (you will find a lot of that in Islam-related articles.) Jimbo said, it is better to give no information that to give misleading or false information, and I agree with him. In the absence of certainty, we should err on the side of caution and delete. If we imagine it will one day be sourced, then the stub situation is likewise only temporary.
- As for the title, it's religious POV that Muhammad received any revelations at all (though it it not the only article which suffers from this problem.)Proabivouac 20:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
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- Thanks for clarifying that :) I agree that all the stuff about Bible prophecies and the Christian response and such was pretty much unsuitable for Wikipedia. I agree there's a lot of copyvio in Islam articles, I've seen that before :(
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- I still don't think that the title implies that there was a revelation, any more than the article on the mathematical P=NP problem (sorry, couldn't figure out a better example :) implies that P=NP, or more than Death and resurrection of Jesus implies that Jesus actually was resurrected. In my opinion an article titled "Resurrection of Jesus" can very well discuss the occasion/legend/story (choose whichever) of, well, resurrection of Jesus. Pretty much same goes for Muhammad's first revelation, Sermon on the Mount and other such things where the actual occurrence is in question. --SLi 21:24, 28 May 2007 (UTC)