Talk:Muhamad Naji Subhi Al Juhani

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 18/9/2006. The result of the discussion was no consensus.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on 2008 April 4. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

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[edit] FBI

Is there any proof that these 2 people are related? They have different names and one is currently in custody. Why would the FBI be looking for someone that is captured? It doesnt seem to make sense and seems like an attempt to add more fluff to the article, please prove me wrong and show something linking these two people. --NuclearUmpf 18:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why would the FBI still be looking for him if he is now in custody?

If you had taken a greater interest in determining where Al Juhani was you would have seen that this was an archived copy of wanted men, from January 2002. You would have seen that Al Juhani was delisted, and his location was "unknown" -- this was consistent with the Bush administration's policy of neither confirming or denying whether suspects were detained at Guantanamo. We only know (most) of their names now because the Bush administration exhausted all their avenues of legal appeal. -- Geo Swan 14:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why assume that the two names specify the same individual?

If you compare the official list of the names of the detainees whose cases were reviewed by a CSRT, and compare the spellings and transliterations of those names with the spellings and transliterations from the official list of the names of all the detainees you will find that 20-30%% were spelled differently. Some of them were extremely different.
These two official lists were released on April 20, 2006 and May 15, 2006 -- that is only 25 days apart.
There are, IMO, at least three reasons for this.
  1. Arabic names are inherently hard to transliterate. One guy's name is transliterated as Hassan in one place and as Ahcene in others. Bear in mind that parts of the names you see are the person's tribal or regional affiliation, not really what we would think of as his name. Al Juhani seems to be one of the many detainees who is illiterate. It is hardly surprising that his name should be transliterated two different ways.
  2. The DoD followed standards in its transliterations of Arabic. They applied their standards inconsistently. Their standards were at odds with those used elsewhere. Most news sites spell the name of Bin Laden's organization as al Qaeda. Most of the DoD documents use al Qaida -- or Al Qaida, or al-Qaida, or Al-Qaida.
  3. The DoD still hasn't figured out how to transliterate the detainee's names. Those three guys who were reported to have committed suicide on June 10, 2006? One of their names wasn't on either of the official lists. The DoD had changed how it transliterated his name in the 26 days between the last official release of names and the announcement of his death. Note: His lawyers report that they weren't able to advise him that he was on the list of detainees who would be sent home because the DoD kept telling them that they didn't have any detainees with his name.
Main article: Guantanamo suicide attempts
-- Geo Swan 14:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
NuclearUmpf has been mischaracterizing my talk page comments, on another user's talk page, and on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents [1].
  • On the other user's talk page, they told them I had acknowledged that Muhamad Naji Subhi Al Juhani and Khalib Muhamad Al Juhani were not the same individual. I did say I hadn't asserted that they were the same individual. I didn't assert it, in the article, because doing so would violate NPOV. I didn't assert what NuclearUmpf says I asserted, -- that the two names referred to two different individuals. I don't know whether the two names do or don't refer to one individual, or to two individuals. And neither does NuclearUmpf. NuclearUmpf keeps demanding I prove that someone has confused the two individuals. But he hasn't offered any proof that they aren't a single individual.
  • NuclearUmpf put this followup comment to my reply to their comment on WP:AN/I:
    • [2] "I don't think you understand. It doesn't matter whether they are the same person. I didn't assert they are the same person" If you arent asserting they are, and noone else is, why is it in the article? --NuclearUmpf 18:41, 27 September 2006 (UTC)
  • I asked NuclearUmpf to look at Guantanamo suicide attempts. On June 10, 2006 the DoD planned to keep the identity of the three men they were reporting had committed suicide secret. On June 11, 2006 following the Saudi's release of the names of their citizens the DoD released their (current) transliteration of the dead men's names. One of the names the DoD released, Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi didn't match, or come close to matching any of the names of the full official list released 26 days earlier. On the official list released 26 earlier the DoD identified him as Mana Shaman Allabardi Al Tabi. An article in the Miami Herald, which has been devoting a reporter exclusively to the Guantanamo beat, asserted that the DoD had previously been identifying this guy as Mazi Salih al Harbi.
Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi How the DoD transliterated his name on June 11th
Maniy bin Shaman al-Otaibi How the Saudis transliterated his name on June 11th
Mana Shaman Allabardi Al Tabi How the Dod transliterated his name on May 15th
Mazi Salih al Harbi An earlier transliteration the DoD used.
  • So, are Khalid ibn Muhamad Al Juhani and Muhamad Naji Subhi Al Juhani of the same order of similarity as Mani Shaman Turki al-Habardi Al-Utaybi and Maniy bin Shaman al-Otaibi? If I understand NuclearUmpf's stated concerns, my noticing the DoD's other instances of identity mismanagement constitutes "original research". I dispute this. As I tried to explain to NuclearUmpf, it doesn't matter whether he, or I, think the two names refer to one individual, or two. They are similar enough that confusion is a possibility. I argued that the readers should be provided with information so they can make up their own mind as to whether we have enough information to decide whether the two names refer to one individual, or to two.
  • I did supply NuclearUmpf with a link to an interview, with a Saudi official, from the Saudi embassy's web-site, where the official referred to the terrorist Muhammad Al Juhani. Personally, I think this is a strong indication that the two names do refer to a single individual. But if, for the sake of argument, they refer to two separate individuals, the Saudi official's comment could be refering to either of them. Any reader, who only knew about only one of the individuals, could, naturally, assume it referred to the Muhammad Al Juhani they knew about. I think NuclearUmpf's insistence that I prove that someone has confused the two individuals is misplaced. First, if there are two individuals, then the Saudi official confused them, for his listeners, by using a name that could refer to either of them. Second, I could, in turn, insist that NuclearUmpf prove that the two names don't refer to a single individual. I won't do so however. I won't ask someone to do a lot of time-consuming busywork, that is unlikely to produce a clearcut conclusion.
Cheers! -- Geo Swan 06:23, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Do you have a source alleging these two people are linked other then yourself? I will be removing the information at the end of the day if one is not provided. Thank you. --NuclearUmpf 10:09, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
NuclearUmpf, you haven't addressed the point I raised about the size of the subset of individuals we are talking about. Initially, you spoke as if the set of individuals we were talking about were all military age males with the name Muhammad Al Juhani. I pointed out that we were talking about the intersection of that set, with the set of Saudi citizens, intersecting with those the USA considers a threat to national security. The USA acknowledges holding 773 detainees at Guantanamo. About 200 of them are Saudis, held because they are considered threats to national security. The USA holds a small number of detainees in their black sites. Estimated to to be no more than 150 individuals. In addition the USA holds another 400 to 800 security detainees in a camp at Bagram. Bagram may hold only Afghan detainees, not foreigners. Anyhow, the number of Saudi prisoners is hundreds, not millions. How many Saudi citizens, who are considered threats to national security, remain at large? I don't know. Certainly not millions. I suspect it is only hundreds, not thousands. It is not only possible that such a small group could contain homonyms, the list of Guantanamo detainees actually does contain half a dozen other names shared by two or more individuals. But the other 700 plus names are unique, only occurring once. In your final comment on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Muhamad Naji Subhi Al Juhani you praised yourself for your ability to offer good faith explanations to me. May I suggest that engaging in a good faith discussion with someone else obliges you to remain open to the possibility that you might not be completely correct, and that the other party will be able to make good points, or perhaps even totally convince you? May I suggest that, in a good faith discussion, it is important to acknowledge when the other party makes a good point? We should be participating in the wikipedia to make it a better encyclopedia. This requires compromise and sincere efforts to seek consensus. -- Geo Swan 21:18, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
O please stop, I get it, you refuse to obide by WP:NOR. As I said if you feel that my removal is wrong contact an admin as I am sure they will know WP:NOR quite well and explain to you why you are not allowed to propose new ideas (that they are the same person/mistaken for eachother) --NuclearUmpf 23:47, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WP:AGF please

Do I know, for a certain fact, that the two names specify the same individual? No, I don't. Nor did I state that when I added this information to the article. There were two individuals we have transliterated as Khalid El Masri and Khalid al-Masri, who were caught up in US counter-terrorism official's search for terrorists. By your argument we would not have the article on the innocent guy reference the one who remains at large, and remains under suspicion -- and vice versa.
I am going to suggest that, if you are concerned that the two names specify different individuals then the collegial path to seek consensus on that issue would be to raise your concern in the appropriate discussion -- without removing the tag that would point other contributors to that discussion?
Cheers! -- Geo Swan 14:06, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I thank you for your lengthly reply however you still have not proven they are the same person, please provide a source. Stating arab names are hard to illiterate does not make a link. When you have a source other then yourself please provide it. I will be reverting back until something other then your own words are provided. --NuclearUmpf 14:57, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think you understand. It doesn't matter whether they are the same person. I didn't assert they are the same person. But, it is highly likely that they could be mistaken for one another. So, this article should describe the circumstances of how the other guy was identified. Readers can then form their own conclusion as to whether they are the same person.
Could you please try to be more tactful. Your repeated assertions that I am not a reliable source are not, IMO, tactfully stated. And, sorry, it leaves me with the impression that you are not really reading what I write. -- Geo Swan 19:32, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Who is alleging there is a mistake here other then you? If you can provide someone then its not OR and fine to stay. --NuclearUmpf 19:42, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
I added the detail and source to the other Juhani article that shows that the FBI martyr video profile archival was as of Feb 2, 2003. This may help clarify if the other Juhani in custody at Guantanamo is the same person. Steven Russell 18:33, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] disputed picture

Replaced transcluded image with inline image - {{npov}} tag as per dispute on Template talk:Combatant Status Review Tribunal trailer image and caption. Geo Swan 03:48, 23 September 2007 (UTC)