Talk:Mudaliar/Archive 1
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[edit] RESEARCH ARTICLES and INSCRIPTIONS: KAIKOLARS = DEVADASIS/ DEVARADIYARS
1. The Erotic Sculptures of India Y. Krishan Artibus Asiae, Vol. 34, No. 4 (1972), pp. 331-343 link 1: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=dasi+kaikolan+musician link 2: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0004-3648(1972)34%3A4%3C331%3ATESOI%3E2.0.CO%3B2-2
2. Artisans in Vijayanagar Society, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 22, No. 4, 417-444 (1985)
This research article explains the blood relation between the Devadasis and the Kaikolar. ("Devaradiyar (dancing girls who have very close kinship ties with the Kaikkolar
link 1: http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/22/4/417 link 2: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=devaradiyar+who+have+close+kinship Register for free -> http://www.sagepublications.com/sjofreeaccess/
3. Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck register here for free->http://www.sagepublications.com/sjofreeaccess/
This research article explains in vivid detail, the way the Kaikkolas used their women to enjoy special privileges in the Vijayanagar empire. (Text Quoted from article: "At least one woman in every Kaikkola household was, according to age-old tradition dedicated to the temple as a devaradiyar or devadasi. The devaradiyar enjoyed special privileges in the days of the Vijayanagar empire and were the only women permitted a direct audience with the king".
link2: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=at+least+one+woman+kaikkoli+household+devaradiyar+devadasi
4. Weaver Folk Traditions as a Source of History, Vijaya Ramaswamy, Indian Economic & Social History Review, Vol. 19, No. 1, 47-62 (1982), http://ier.sagepub.com/cgi/content/citation/19/1/47?ck=nck, register here for free->http://www.sagepublications.com/sjofreeaccess/
This research article (along with references to an inscription) describes how a devaradiyar or devadasi won special privileges for the Kaikkolas from the king Deva Raya II (A.D 1433)
5. Some Enquiries into the Condition of Weavers in Medieval South India, Indian Historical Review, Vol. VI, Nos. 1 and 2
6. This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.
"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411
To view the complete article just register, its free. Here are the links :
http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/link.asp?id=jv31l27518262711 If you cannot access it then just go to the following page and follow one of the links
Venki Devadiya, should've held your tongue. I'll give you more and then some!!
Mudaliar 23:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
Pandarams (Saiva Vellalar) and others write books to hide their past of donating their women for TEMPLE/Palace prostitution. DANCING is part of Hindu tradition but the low caste Telugu, Brits and Muslims rules created bad ideas about the DANCING in temples. Those who benefitted from these FOREIGN rulers now try to fool others.
Can this Ramasamy tell why the DEVADASIS call themselves ISAI Vellalar instead of KAI KOLAR?
[edit] The following references are very much pertinent to the discussion at hand as it clearly proves the need for social upliftment and sanskritization of Sengunthars/ Kaikolars as they have a common origin with Devadasis and girls from the former community still continue to go into sacred prostitution as explained below.
[edit] EVIDENCE FOR Relation between Sengunthars/ Kaikolars and Devadasis
1. The following is quoted from a legitimate third party website. http://globalindiamissions.org/newsletter/nwsltr0802.htm
The Kaikolan are a large Tamil and Telugu caste of weavers. There are seventy-two subdivisions (nadu or desams). Their name comes from a mythical hero and from the words "kai" (hand) and "koi" (shuttle). They consider the different parts of the loom to represent various gods and sages. They are also known as Sengundar, which means a red dagger, which is traced to the legend of the earth being harassed by demons, which led to the people asking the god Shiva to help them.
Traditionally, one girl in every family was set apart to be dedicated to temple service and becomes a "Devdasi" (meaning female servant of god). In the temple, the girl is considered married to the temple deity but in practice becomes a prostitute, especially to the Brahmans and she learns traditional music and dancing.
2. The following is journal research article with abundant valid references. This is as legitimate as it gets.
This article talks in much detail about how women from the Sengundhar/ Kaikola caste get into the sacred prostitution in temples.
"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411
To view the complete article just register, its free.
Here are the links :
http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/link.asp?id=jv31l27518262711 If you cannot access it then just go to the following page and follow one of the links
3. This is taken from another legitimate webiste http://www.go2southasia.org/l_peoples.html of a world renknown organisation recognised by many countries. They have no gain in just picking on the Sengunthar caste.
The KAIKOLAR people are a caste of weavers 1.5 million strong in southern India. They are Hindus and view different parts of the loom as representations of various gods and sages. Traditionally, each Kaikolar family sets aside one daughter to serve in a Hindu temple. That daughter is considered married to the temple deity—often the Hindu destroyer god Shiva. In practice, the daughter becomes a temple prostitute.
All 3 of the above references are quite legitimate and I can quote many more. There is no question of coincidence or any error in any of these sources.
But DEVADASIs and their descendants call themselves as VELLALAR and have the Vellala caste name PILLAI for centuries. How did these researchers missed this important evidence about DEVADASIS? DEVADASIS call themselves ISAI VELLALAR (VELLALA MUSICIANS).
But traditions indicate the so called DEVADASIS are the descendants of VELLALA females and the KAI KOLA warriors. But Devadasis were identified by the CHOLA KINGS as right hand caste and Vellalar
These are the facts which were purposesly ignored by the so called writters.
VELLALANS never be a fighting force under any TAMIL KINGS but these article tells VELLALANS went on raids. hahahahahahahahahaha
Who are those VELLALA GENERALS went to the war?
So, better stop your stupidity!
[edit] Kaikola are thavdaiyaal. Okkaley kootikudukaruthu thaan unga parambara thozhil. Mandi podu. Vatha you can change you name to sengunthar/ Kaikolar or claim lineage from Queen mother herself but you can't hide. Authors, Historians and Professors chummaa puttu puttu vachirukaanga.
[edit] Dey O***. I can also talk rubbish like you. How come you are not so eager to state your opinion about KKV, TMV and TMSV? I'm not using sock puppets. You can trash Kaikolar as much as you want because we know you are a bastard of Brahmin and what more can one expect from you. Share your opinion about KKV, TMV and TMSV because I am still willing to consider you as an individual and not just a bastard of brahmin. Let us see how your devious mind tries to digest this. I know you are User:mudaliar in a different name. Your time is up and you are gonna get kicked out Wikipedia just like you got kicked out of Tamilnadu.
- @Venki123: Venki123 (talk · contribs) has been playing both sides. Why don't we do a check for socket puppet? You are just playing both sides and using socket puppets and then stating that its in fact mine to portray me in bad light. You can pull all the tricks in the book but the research papers and articles are here to stay. Bring it on you sleazy piece of shit.
[edit] Go ahead and do a User check on my login
I'm fine with it. There is already a check going on your name. But still why don't u state your very important opinion on KKV, TMV and TMSV? Why are you so afraid to talk about KKV and TMV? You are such a loser. Your whole TMSV glory is fake. Why curse me when you are worth less than shit you bastard of brahmin. It is time and you are on your way out and Wikipedia would be a better place without you just as Tamilnadu is better off without your people. I have proven soundly that TMSV is fake. Why so eloquent on Kaikolar and so silent on the KKV TMV and TMSV faking? I have been dealing with your bull shit for 4 months now and still you wont change for it is impossible for you, you worthless scum. == Venki 21:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
Kaikolars are not Tamils. They're a mixture of Telugu, Kannada and whatever. Are you saying that Kaikolars are Tamils? You're so freaking not Tamil. Keep dreaming. All the research articles prove the true identity of Kaikolars, need I say more? As for you, you're the scum of south India. Why don't you go back in time and prevent Kaikola women from being donated to temples? No try it and then come back I'll be waiting. So desperate were the Kaikolars to move up in the society that they made atleast one woman from every kaikolar household into a devadasi. These are all in the research papers.
[edit] "Pallava is Mudali is Kshatriya is Kaikola : An analysis" (Taken from Sengunthar page where Venki claims Pallava lineage)
Ewwwww....Venki Duh! What a crock of shit! You're just lying big time. Yeah right, Pallava royal family renamed themselves as Kaikola and then took up weaving. They sold their daughters to become Devadasis in Shiva temples to earn money. Now from the claim that Pallavas are Kaikola, you will claim Pallavan Narasimhavarman is your relative in the near future. Your messed up all over. Keep it flowing.
Mudaliar 20:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Mudaliar! How did you become MUDALIAR? Why are you using KAIKOLA CASTE NAME?
Dont you know the DEVADASIS use the VELLALA caste name PILLAI for centuries?
Pallavas were Kai Kola which means kshatriya kula. So, dont cry
Any Kai Kolan is a descendant of PALLAVA RULERS.
Tell the NATTUVANS and Nadeswaram players who are the descendants of DEVADASIS, not to use your VELLALA caste name PILLAI.
But you are a shameless man and using KAI KOLA caste name MUDALIAR. Better use your VELLALA caste name PILLAI if you have any basic honesty
==
User Mudaliar is unable to read properly. Even the proofs he gives on his group TondaiMandala Saiva Vellala, are about the group called KondaiKatti Vellala. He has clarified many times that his group is different from KondaiKatti Vellala. Just check his own proofs based on the edits he has made. When I add the section about KondaiKatti Vellala, he goes berserk and starts denigrating the Sengunthar group based on some Christian websites. I have not mentioned anything denigrating about his group even though it is well known in Tamilnadu that women of his group were used as concubines by the brahmins in the temples as his ancestors were convinced about the superiority of the brahmins and thought getting white skin was more important than being cuckolded. He also follows the same thought praising the superiority of Brahmins. The whole Dravidian movement was against these Brahmins and the Saiva Vellala. This Dravidian movement was led by pure Tamilians such as Sengunthar. Hence User Mudaliar feels such anger against the Sengunthar. I suggest we ask the opinion of editors of the title Gounder , Pillai, etc as they are knowledgable about the current situation in Tamilnadu.
Venki 20:49, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Da Venki! Nice try! Looks like your true identity has been discovered. The whole world seems to know this for a fact da. Kaikolar <> Pallavas. Keep dreaming. Kaikolar = Devadasis prostitutes. It was kaikolars who became devadasis for the white skin. The Brahmin first sleeps with the Kaikola woman and then she longs for the Aryan lineage. Freakin half blood Sengunthars are not pure Tamils. You're a freaking mixture of Telugu/ Kannada. I bet your mom was a concubine and was done by a Brahmin in more than one way. Your claim that Kaikola is Pallava is true as your Devadasi ancestor strayed and bent over in the courts of the Pallavas. Yeah that way since you have Aryan lineage you can claim yourself as Kshatriya.
Who are the PURE Tamils in TN now?
All Tamil guys are run for WHITE/FAIR skinned women. Why?
TAMIL cinema is an example. Tamils, specially the black or Somali look like Tamils want to change their color. 50 million Tamils live but they always want some North Indian women in their films. The castes like Kallan, Vellalans and other BLACK tribes are trying for centuries to change their color by sending their women to KAIKOLA and Brahman homes
Pallavas were the remnants of the great ASHOKA empire. Their descendants are the Kai Kolar. Pallavas were not Tamils but their descendants became Tamils and Telugus later. Now Kai Kolar are the pride of the Tamil race. Other castes did nothing in the history of Tamils. Specially these VELLALANS did nothing except sending their girls to KAI KOLAR homes or Telugu homes to get favors
[edit] Kaikolars forced their women to become devadasis. During the dedication ceremony the Kaikolar women have sexual intercourse with the Brahmin priests in the temple. This alone proves that it is infact you who has been yearning for the white color. Yuck, your disgusting caste is a disgrace and hence has been rightly isolated as all the historians so eloquently put it. The Kaikolars are descendants of devaradiyars. To quote you: "Pallavas were not Tamils but later became Tamils and Telugu". Hehe, you are really retarded: see this is the direct consequence of your Kaikolar ancestors becoming devadasis. When Kaikolars came into the Tamil empire they were used as sex slaves by the Kallan, Maravan and Vellalan caste. Subsequently this became a ritual and the Kaikolars readily ask their women to strip in front of their Tamil masters longing to become Tamils. This scenario is also applicable in Andhra and Karnataka where Kaikolars who were according to you "remnants of the Ashoka empire" strip readily to obtain favors. Now thats how Kaikolars devadiyars became Tamils though in reality they are still isolated by the actual Tamils for their low and loose morals.
[edit] Transition from Devadasis to Sengunthars/ Kaikolars to Mudaliars
From the above sources, the Devadasi community has evolved from the Kaikolar community. The Kaikolars renamed themselves as Sengundars. This renaming was necessary to evade detection of their relation to the Devadasis and to separate themselves from the latter. Since a significant population of the Kaikolar/ Sengundars still continue to become Devadasis for monetary support the Sengundars started adding the Mudaliar title for social upliftment. This process is clearly sanskritization.
[edit] More citations: Mudaliar is surname of Tondaimandala Vellalas only
Here are more valid citations which prove that Mudaliar is the surname of Tondaimandala Vellalas only. Both articles are journal papers with ample references as to the origin of Mudaliars and who the Tondaimandala Vellalars are. To quote a few lines from the second article (which in turn reference's the first one),
In a large report written in late 1798 and early 1799, Place had noted that the Chola Raja collected the “whole of the Mudali tribe called the Vellalars who were sent to settle in Tondaimandalam.”[104] Place also wrote that the country had been divided into territorial domains called kootams, a reference to kurumbar policies. Thus, Place could argue that the spatialization of the vellalas in the villages of the Tondai country had begun long before the British arrived.
The above statement was quoted from Lionel Place's (an English officer in East India Company ) report to East India Company. This literature is from 1799.
The Chola King is Karikala Chola. More quotes regarding how we were persecuted by the British..
“Mudali” is the shortened form of “Mudaliyar,” the surname of all Tondaimandala vellalas. “Mudaliyār”—a term that literally meant a person of first rank. However, in the view of many of the Company officers, the term “Mudali” carried a pejorative meaning. Mudalis were despised by the British because they were considered both essential actors and great threats to individual British and Company operations.
Scroll to the reference section of second article to see a list of some of the Tondaimandala Mudaliyars who were persecuted by the British.
Citations
1. Place, 1799 Report, para. 59. “Mudali” is the shortened form of “Mudaliyar,” the surname of all Tondaimandala vellalas. If you want to read Lionel Place's whole orginal report go to Public library in Madras.
2. Irschick, Eugene F. Dialogue and History: Constructing South India, 1795-1895. Berkeley: University of California Press, 1994.
direct web reference: http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:wAFcJ_wAnhAJ:texts.cdlib.org:8088/xtf/view%3FdocId%3Dft038n99hg%26chunk.id%3D0%26doc.view%3Dprint+mudali+tribe+tondaimandala&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2
(after opening document search for: mudali tribe)
http://ark.cdlib.org/ark:/13030/ft038n99hg/
3. Order and Disorder in Colonial South India Eugene F. Irschick Modern Asian Studies, Vol. 23, No. 3 (1989), pp. 459-492
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0026-749X(1989)23%3A3%3C459%3AOADICS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B
[edit] User: Mudaliar does not endorse the following comments made on his behalf by User:Venki123. I can speak for myself. First of all stop deleting my references. I have given a research paper about the relation between devadasis and kaikolars. Please leave your comment but do not delete. Wiki users can decide for themselves. Second of all, you're the one who started speaking derogatorily and also went on to say that Tondaimandala Vellalas received the title from the Britishers. So stop pretending to be all innocent.
[edit] Reply from Venki
First of all, the websites are biased sites whose only aim is to potray Indians as poor and obtain money from believing christians. There are many other groups on these same websites, have you looked at all of them?
Secondly in the article Devadasi itself, before you started your false edits, it is mentioned that the community called Isai Vellala (a subcaste of Vellala) is the source for the girls of devadasi. These Isai Vellala have been passing off as Kaikolar to hide their origins . This is because kaikolar is a distinguished group well-known from the 10th century AD. This is not sanskritization, this is just plain passing off.
Thirdly, in your talk page, you had already been warned by other users not to use these biased websites as your reference as there is no independent non-biased research.
Last, if your aim is to spread slanderous false statements about Sengundar and I quote you take it outside of wikipedia on other community sites and take it to a whole new level ?, I'm not bothered. Your threats wont work in wikipedia. Further you better examine both your motive and your mental health?
Venki 19:44, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Its not the question of what the Devadasis call themselves now, but as to what their origin is. Its very clear from the above evidences.
I assume that all your edits with different aliases connecting devadasi prositution and kaikolar/Sengundar was because that I (who you think is a member of Sengundar) started speaking derogatorily and also went on to say that Tondaimandala Vellalas received the title from the Britishers!! Ofcourse you felt insulted because of this as I assume that you are a member of Tondaimandala Vellalas.
Venki 18:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I have provided references for every article I've edited and wiki users can edit any article. Moreover why are you so concerned if it isn't true ? There is nothing to hide if its all false and the rest of the world can decide for themselves. Afterall, I did not invent these references out of nowhere.Mudaliar 18:32, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Why are you concerned if TMSV is not the first person to use Mudaliar title or obtained this title by working for British. By your own words, There is nothing to hide if its all false and the rest of the world can decide for themselves. Further you agree that these statements about Kaikolar are false. And, Why do you keep hiding our discussion in the middle of the page when our discussion is the most current? Venki 18:37, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I fully believe that the the devadasi community evolved from the Sengunthar/ Kaikolar community. Lets put up the same references on the pages of all south indian castes and ask for an opinion. Why don't we take it outside of wikipedia on other community sites and take it to a whole new level ? Mudaliar 18:47, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
So your only aim is to spread to the whole world your false connection between devadasi community and Sengunthar / Kaikolar community because you felt insulted? Is it correct that your sudden recent urge started only after you felt that you and your group ( which I assume is Tondai Mandala Saiva Vellala ) were insulted by a member of Sengundar group? Venki 18:59, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
These are references regarding the Sengundar/ Kaikolar/ Devadasi community. Handle the truth (your very own words).Mudaliar 19:11, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Simple questions for User:Mudaliar
Are you willing to follow the RFC procedure? I have put the RFC at the top so that it is easy to refer to. If you would like to give your own statements on the various questions posed in the RFC please add them also. There is no need to bold everything you say. Why are you deleting references I have given about Kaikkola using Mudali title from 1100AD in the Sengunthar article?
Venki 17:10, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Why did you delete my references from the Mudaliar and the Sengunthar article ? Its not at your discretion to discard the ones that are not favorable to you. Second of all, I have clearly proved the sanskritization process in Sengunthars/Kaikolars and their relation to Devadasis. Moreover one of the references is a research paper accepted as journal paper and published in India and beyond. All 3 of the references cannot magically say the exact same thing.Mudaliar 17:46, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Request for Comment: Mudaliar Title
- This is a dispute about what groups can use Mudaliar title and which group used the title first.
This dispute involves user Venki123 and user Mudaliar.
Statements by editors previously involved in dispute
- According to user Mudaliar,
- it is Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV) caste who were the first users of this title.
- it is Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV) caste were the feudal lords who conducted agricultural raids
- it is Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV) caste who were first vellalas settled in Thondai Mandalam by king KariKala Chola
- Kaikola caste are weavers who have no history before that.
- The caste called Thondai Mandala Vellala (TMV) are different from the caste called Thondai Mandala Saiva Vellala (TMSV).
- According to user Venki123,
- There is no definite proof for which group is the first user of this title. If there is proof
available to the contrary, this will be withdrawn.
- The usage of this title refers to only officers intially and not castes.
- Kaikola caste used this title from 1100 AD. (Proof given)
- Kaikola caste were warriors forming many regiments in Chola army from 900 AD.(Proof given in the form of inscription)
- Castes such as KondaiKatti Vellalas, Payur Kottai Vellalas also existed as subcastes of Vellalas in Tondai mandalam (Proof given in the form of British reports)
- Castes such as KondaiKatti Vellalas, Payur Kottai Vellalas also used the title Mudaliar (Proof given in the form of British reports)
- Caste called KondaiKatti Vellalas (KKV) were also known as Thondai Mandala Vellala (TMV).(Proof given in the form of British reports)
- Caste called KondaiKatti Vellalas (KKV) also known as Thondai Mandala Vellala (TMV) were
the first group to be settled by King Adondai chola in Thondai Mandala. (Proof given in the form of British reports)
- Castes such as Kaikolla-mudali agambadik-kottu-mudali samanta-mudali agambadittana-mudali Kelvi-mudali agambadi-mudali existed during the reign of Cholas and pallavas around 11-13th century. (Proof given in the form of inscription)
Venki 16:39, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Regarding User Mudaliar
- User Mudaliar is deleting proofs of other castes using Mudaliar title by reverting.
- User Mudaliar is unable to provide proof that TMSV used mudali title in the past.
- User Mudaliar aims only to denigrate other castes using Mudali title including the caste Kaikolar.
- User Mudaliar has created many aliases such as JuneTrey Madrasi Eugene32 and IP address 207.250.0.154. It is suggested that user Mudaliar change his username so that it is easier to refer to him and stop using multiple sock puppets as it causes confusion.
Venki 16:38, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] The only issue here
The only issue here is who used Mudali title first? I dont care whether TMSV is FC or blue-eyed or everything? Give proof for saiva vellala mudali with date. Otherwise stop claiming that TMSV is the group which first used Mudali title. End of story.
[edit] Attacking the messenger instead of the message
It is bad manners to attack the messenger if you cant handle the message.
[edit] Dont Delete comments made by others
Cant you not understand when it says dont delete comments made by others? If it is disrespectful to a particular group or to you, then delete it. Otherwise if it is a scientifically proven article why delete it?
[edit] Name of chola king who settled TondaiNadu
Karikala chola was not the king who settled TondaiNadu. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Venki123 (talk • contribs) 21:35, 2 January 2007 (UTC).
What is the basis for your claim ? Then who settled TondaiNadu ? http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/09/03/stories/2004090300780600.htm
From the Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland By Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland
The king was called Adanda chakravarti, illegitmate son of Kulotunga chola also called as Tonda was the first to settle Tondaimandalam with Vellalars from Chola nadu. This is better than the hindu article's claims.
[edit] According to various British sources it is the KKV who claim first settlement in TondaiNadu
Place and everybody who refers him says that it is KKV who settled first in TondaiNadu by a chola king.
Place just says that a Mudali tribe called Vellalars were settled by Chola King. Don't make up stuff.
Accroding to the TMSV, if TMSV is the only person allowed to use Mudali then is there not proof now that other groups were also using Mudali title? Are the original claims being accepted as nonsense?
The dispute was about the original Mudaliyars not about random ppl using the Mudali title. The author is describing the scenario sometime in 1798. During this time Saiva Vellala were not the only Vellala community in Tondaimandalam area. But they're the original Mudaliyar tribe settled by the Chola King.
According to Religion and Public Culture: Encounters and Identities in Modern South India By John J. (John Jeya) Paul, Keith E. Yandell
Adontai chola settled the KKV after defeating the Kurumbar people.
[edit] Proof Number One that KKV is TondaiMandala
From Dialogue and History Constructing South India, 1795–1895 Eugene F. Irschick
It is hard to identify the subcastes to which the main body of Mirasidars who were deprived of their mirasis belonged, except that they were apparently not brahmans. Of the group of twenty-four who left the Poonamallee pargana in November 1796, only four had Tondaimandala or Kondaikatti vellala surnames, while eight of them had as a surname “Pillai,” which could refer to members of the karṇam subcaste or to yadavas or even to pallis, later to be called vanikula kshatriyas. The twelve remaining had names that were undistinguished except that they were not brahman
The same book also says that Tamils are Malabars and Vardappa Mudaliar referred to the others as Malabars or Tamils. Then what was he ? All Vellalas in Tondaimandalam area are referred to as Tondaimandalam Vellalas. All Tondaimandalam Vellalas are not TMSV. Any Mudaliar Sangam would be able to clarify this.
[edit] Proof Number Two that KKV is TondaiMandala
JSTOR: Order and Disorder in Colonial South India
Moreover, a group of peasant subcastes called the Kondaikatti or Tondaimandala Vellalas ... 'Mudali' is the shortened form of'Mudaliyar', the surname of all ...
Nobody is disputing that Mudaliyar is not the surname of Tondaimandala Vellala. Only that all Tondaimandala Vellala are not TM Saiva Vellala.
[edit] Proof Number Three that KKV is TMSV
As important as the village-based vertical ties of the Mirasidars were the horizontal relationships developed between the Mirasidars and their literate kin, called Dubashes, who lived in Madras. A Dubash was a person who knew two languages; generally, the term was employed by the British in Madras to refer to a group of individuals who knew English and Tamil or Telugu.[49] Usually Dubashes acted as agents or brokers either for individuals or as employees of the British and other European Companies. Even today, modern companies in Madras that have origins in the eighteenth century have a senior official called a Dubash, a vestige of this practice. Most of the Dubashes in late eighteenth-century Madras were Telugu brahmans or Telugu perikavārs, Tamil kaṇṇakappiḷḷais, Tamil yādhavas, or Tamil Kondaikatti vellalas.[50] Many of these Kondaikatti vellala Dubashes were connected by kinship to Kondaikatti vellala Mirasidars in the Poonamallee and other rural areas of the Jagir. In contemporary documents, these Kondaikattis were known as Mudalis—later lengthened to “Mudaliyār”—a term that literally meant a person of first rank. However, in the view of many of the Company officers, the term “Mudali” carried a pejorative meaning. Mudalis were despised by the British because they were considered both essential actors and great threats to individual British and Company operations. Place said that almost every domestic servant down to the lowest menial employed by a European gentleman could be included in the network of connections deployed by these Dubashes. According to him, the Mudalis were able to use their contacts and knowledge of Europeans to retain “every inhabitant [in their own villages] in complete subjection.”[51] —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Venki123 (talk • contribs) 22:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC).
[edit] Proof for KKV worked under the Arcot Nawab and British empire as Dubashes and their growth under these two regimes
From the same book,
For instance, some of the Kondaikatti vellalas had been employed as government servants under the Nawab of Arcot.[47] During the time when the Nawab leased the Jagir from the Company (1763–82) and during the early years after the Company took it over, many Kondaikatti vellalas gained privileges to cultivate land at a reduced land tax or at no tax at all.[48] These rights were called māṉiyams and surottiriyams (Tamil “curōttiriyam”), iṉāms, and the like. One of the main conflicts between the Company and these Mirasidars concerned the resumption by the Company of these privileges, many of which the Company officials believed had been usurped illegally. Even when legally held, these tax privileges were viewed by the Company as part of a general process by which Mirasidars and Palayakkars, who had been employed to “police” or “watch” villages under the pre-British system, defrauded the Company of substantial amounts of money. Indeed, Poonamallee, one of the areas under Company control from 1749 onward, formed a base for the growth of power of many Kondaikatti vellala families. Poonamallee had been granted to the Company by the Nawab in 1749; named for a village called P;amuntamalli, located about fourteen miles from St. George in Madras, the Poonamallee territory was characterized by the presence of many Kondaikattis who had established themselves through these “usurped” privileges.
[edit] Relationship between KKV and British Overlords
One such supporter, a Kondaikatti vellala Mirasidar named Varadappa Mudali from Sirukulattur on the Chembrambakkam tank near Poonamallee, wanted to cultivate Place. Varadappa Mudali wrote to Place, “We are very poor and rely on the Gentleman’s favor and protection. Some Malabars [Tamils] for the sake of their own advantage have excited the ignorant Pariars to commit disturbances, thereby bringing the whole disgrace upon the [Kondaikatti vellala] cast in the eyes of the Gentleman.”
[edit] TMSV Clarification
Why would a famous FC caste change its name from KKV to TMSV? Did Iyers or Iyengars change their caste name? originally it was claimed that TMSV were called vellalas and then added saiva and then added tondaimandala? Was it a purposeful misrepresentation of the name OR was it ignorance of it ?!! It is not like Kondaikatti is such a popular name that every caste wants to use it.
The TMSV are Saiva Vellalars not Kondaikatti Vellala. Are you kidding me ? All Vellalas are not from the same gene pool. They're not related to one another. The author is referring to the Tamils as Malabars in one of the sections of the supposed letter (which is later found to be forged). The article was cited as a reference to Place's report and not to promote the author's argument and inferences. If the Malabars were Tamils then what were the real Tamils called, Malayalees ? Look at the names of all the Kondaikatti Vellalas: Mangadu Oppa Mudali, Evalappa Mudali, Varadappa Mudali, etc., These are not names of Tamil people, rather anybody from South India can readliy recognise these names to be Telugu. TMSV are exclusively Tamils.
Are you claiming that KKV who were originally settled by Chola king himself are Telugus and not Tamils?
No, I'm claiming the original tribe settled by the Chola king are TM Saiva Vellala who are Tamils and not Telugu. The author is grouping all Vellalas in Tondaimandalam into one group as Tondaimandala Vellalas which is wrong. Place just says Mudaliyar tribe of Vellalars not KKV.
[edit] Evidence from 1100 AD that Kaikola used the mudaliar title during Chola reign in Kumbakonam outside ThondaiMandalam in proper Chola country
This gives proof that Mudali did not originate in Thondai Mandalam nor restricted to Thondai Mandalam. Further clearly Kaikola-Mudali was recognized as a unique community by the king himself . There is no way a caste can start using Mudali title for social upliftment during the chola reign. Looks like KKV group started using Mudali title for social upliftment unless there is proof available to the contrary.
If you're going to cite inscriptions then give the actual inscriptions in Tamil not the Translation. Moreover the dating scheme used is astronomical dating. Karikala Chola is one of the earliest Cholas. There is not much information outside of Sangam literature about his reign. Inspite of no inscriptions he is still considered the greatest of all Chola kings and not dismissed as a myth. The Tamil people are not so gullible that they'd believe some random folktale by a group of Vellalars calling themselves as Mudaliyars, considering that they were the minority and were no different from the rest of Tamils(except that they had the support of Karikala Chola). Even the vedas were passed on only thru' orations before they were put down in writing sometime around 50BC. According to astronomical dating Krishna was born around 3200 BC and Rama was born 5000 years before Krishna was born. This is as accurate as astronomical dating gets.
Example: (A.R. No. 94 of 1934-35). Vriddhachalam, Vriddhachalam Taluk, South Arcot District. "On the west wall of the mandapa in front of the central shrine in the Vriddhagirisvara temple. The date of the record, according to the astronomical details given, was either A.D. 1240, Jan. 11, Wednesday, or A.D. 1251, January 11, Wednesday. In both cases the nakshtra was Makha, not Punarpusam as quoted in the inscription. Since the donor is stated to have been a mudali of Alagiyasiyan Kopperujinga, the date of the inscription was probably A.D. 1240."
--The person transcribing the supposed inscription is disputing the date of the inscription and is also claiming that it was a different date based on astrology and astronomical data. Moreover in the end the person also goes on to claim the date of inscription by associating it with the name in the inscription when in fact it should be the other way around. How can you arrive at the date of the inscription using the name ? The transcriber clearly assumes that name->person is bijective which is false.
[edit] Evidence from 1237 AD that Kaikolas used the mudaliar title during Pallava reign
http://www.whatisindia.com/inscriptions/south_indian_inscriptions/volume_12/stones_101_to_125.html
No. 122.
(A.R. No. 497 of 1921).
Tiruvennainallur, Tirukkoyilur Taluk, South Arcot District.
On the East wall of the mandapa in the front of the central shrine in the Vaikuntha-Perumal temple.
In this inscription, dated in the 8th year, Kopperujingadeva is given the surname Alagiyasiyan. It records a gift of 5 cows by Tirumalaiy-Alagiyan alias Vira[gal*] virap-Pallavaraiyan[26], a Kaikkola-mudali of Tiruvennainallur for supplying daily milk by the measure ‘Arumolideva-nali’ to the god Vaikunda (Vaikuntha) [p-Perumal]. This donor figures in A.D. 1237[27] and his death is referred to in No. 189 below. From the title Alagiyasiyan given to the chief, he may be identified with the elder Kopperunjinga.
This is not any website affiliated to any religion. This is an authentic material of an inscription made during the time of the Pallava king Kopperunjingadeva.
[edit] Quality of sources
Please provide any information of this quality. This is the quality that sources for statements should strive to be. Even though British sources are good, they are unfortunately derived from claims made by the local people as it is given in the notes section of the same book. There is a lot of difference between the folklore and an inscription.
[edit] How are Sengunthars Kshatriyas ?
Kshatriya is a varna status given to the ruling class in Aryavarta. The whole dravidian race, the Tamils et al, were classified as Shudras by the Aryan society. Tamil Brahmins are not Tamils. They came from Aryavarta to propagate the Brahminical society.
The Vedic Aryans were white people who were nomadic barbarians: http://www.light1998.com/The-Bible-of-Aryan-Invasions/bibai.html
The people who deny the Aryan invasion theory are the Hindutva forces trying in vain to defend that Hinduism was founded in Indus Valley by proposing the ridiculous Out-Of-India theory. This has been rejected by historians.
Thanthai Periyar (E.V. Ramasamy Naicker) who was a descendant of Nayaks, a ruling class, was insulted and treated like a dog at Kaasi. This led to the Self Respect movement and later eveolved into the Anti-Brahminism. You can read more about the self-respect movement here: http://www.periyar.org/html/ap_bios_eng1.asp The whole Dravidian race was subjected to derogatory remarks and referred to as Monkeys and Rakshasas in Ramayana which led Thanthai Periyar to burn copies of Ramayana and photos of Rama.
The varna system was thrust upon by the Vedic Aryans to differentiate themselves from the other races. Varna means color. Aryan means noble or pure. But this has nothing to do with virtues, it means one of noble birth or pure blooded in Aryavarta. Rama was referred to as an Aryan in Ramayana.
Do Sengunthars have Aryan lineage or are they from Aryavarta ? Please provide citations.
Sengunthars were warriors once upon a time in the Chola army. Hence they are classified as Kshatriyas. They dont claim any aryan lineage.
[edit] Earliest use of title Mudaliar
The exact info needed is when people started using Mudaliar title and who was the king who gave it to some particular notable person or particular group. Any solid evidence in the form of literature or stone inscription is enough to clarify the issue. The history of all kinds of groups using Mudaliar title is well known. The earliest evidence of the usage of Mudaliar title is obtained from British information is one Arumugam Mudaliar circa 1600s and another is Arya Nayaka mudaliar. This Arya Nayaka mudaliar was the minister of Nayak kings. Is this guy also saiva vellala or a Nayaka using Mudaliar title?
Its AryaNatha mudaliar and not Arya Nayaka. He is a Vellala and not a Nayak. The following articles talk about the Nayaks and how he rose through sheer ability to become the Prime Minister of Viswanatha Nayak. There are statues for him at Tirumalai Nayak Mahal in Madurai.
Check this http://www.koodal.com/districts/mdu_history_eng3.asp
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madurai_Nayaks (this is wiki)
This is much earlier than the British period. Its between 1559 - 1563. The Muslims overthrew the Nayak kingdoms 2 centuries later around 1740 and then the British arrived in the mid 18th century (1751 or so).
[edit] Intercaste Marriages
What is the percentage of inter-caste and inter-religious marriages in the Mudaliar community? If it is less than 80%, aren't they anti-social? Maaparty 18:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] TMS and FC status
TMS became FC mainly because of their high status during the 19th and 20th centuries and before independence which they gained during British rule. How they obtained the wealth and the relationship of TMS with the Mudaliar title and the connection with Pallava kings are the issues under discussion here. This is similar to Mukkulathor claiming that they are the descendants of the 3 kings of TN Chera, Chola and Pandya. If Mukkalathor are BC and kings, how come TMS are FC but servants of kings?
1. The Hindu article http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/09/03/stories/2004090300780600.htm alone proves that TMSV did not obtain the Mudaliar title during the British reign in South India rather it proves we atleast obtained way before that. We obtained the wealth by organizing agricultural raids. If we were already Mudaliars during the Chola rule, then we wouldn't have been poor or middle class or upper middle class at that time. The various kingdoms after the Cholas like Nayaks etc., were also our patrons. So to say we obtained most of our wealth during the British rule is false. Don't make random statements.
2. As to the origin of South Indian kings, its a grey area , moreover, its at the discretion of the direct descendants(not just the crown prince but his half brothers etc.) to clear this. If indeed they are then why would the royal family keep mum, c'mon they're full blooded already, so it should not be such a big deal saying what your origin is, rather its a plus for your community ?
3. If at all what you say is true (kings were Mukkulathor, I seriously doubt it, go see the royal lineage split in Chola-Chalukya) then why did the Agamudiyar(Mukkaluthor) leave the title Devar, Padayatchi etc., and are using Mudaliyar ? Why go thru' all this trouble ? If you read Tamil history then you'd notice that Agamudiyar moved from down south to the Thondaimandalam area before they started using Mudaliar title and even renamed to Thuluva Vellala (as Mudaliar is a title given to SV only). This is because at one point the Mudaliars as in TMSV were only in Northern Tamil Nadu, so no one would believe you if you said you were a Mudaliar and if you lived outside of Thondaimandalam. But in the end the Govt. was too sharp to label them as a separate community and still clubs them with Agamudaiyar.
4. For the sake of argument if the Kings belonged to community X, then, it does not make any sense to promote X to FC when the majority of the ppl belonging to X are still socially struggling. Caste in Indian society was assigned by profession. So to say all ppl(no blood relation with the King) in X are aristocrats does not make any sense. Again don't you think that if the Kings were really from X then they would have favored ppl from their own community X over others in order to lift the ppl from community X ? This gives food for thought as to why the SV community was given so much importance over the centuries eg: its no secret SV Pillaimars rivalled the Brahmins as the Kings' high functionaries ? Why wasn't the Pillaimar title given to the Mukkulathor community ?It is beyond the scope of the article to cite our literary achievements in the various kingdoms. Some research would reveal the who's who of SV community in the past Tamil kingdoms.
[edit] One direct evidence is enough
ONLY ONE historical evidence is sufficient to prove that TMS were the original people who were given Mudaliar title or even the original Mudaliar caste. This could be a stone inscription or literary article. Unfortunately all we have are the name Vellala. It could be Thuluva Vellala or Isai Vellala or any other died out Vellala group. Edgar Thurston wrote his book in 1905. So that cannot be considered historic. However I do accept that at that time i.e. 1900's TMS group were socially high. Any time before that need more evidence.
1. For the umpteenth time The Thuluva Vellala are not Vellala, they are Thevars. That is why they've been clubbed with Agamudiyars in the BC caste list. Isai Vellala and most of the the other Vellala castes did not exist before this, they've just recently added "Vellala" to the caste name for social mobility. That is why they've still been classified as BC/MBC etc.
2. Edgar Thurston is a reknown historian recognized the world over, and he makes abundant citations (which are all Tamil and Indian historical articles in his book) before making a claim.
3. So are you saying that if someone wrote a book about the Pallavas today but cited authentic historical references then you would still refuse to accept the book as authentic just because it was written in this modern era ? If yes, then there is a fundamental flaw in your logic.
Understand that any claim is only as sound as its source. For example, many kings claimed they were born from Sun and Moon. These are preposterous. Thurston's book is about the status of variuos groups during the time of British rule. In fact all British books are only about the people at that time. These were before the discovery of the great history of the Tamilian people. Thurston's claims have their sources only from the groups he interacted with.
[edit] Clarification on Devadasi
The webpages connecting Devadasi with Kaikola are from Christian Missionary websites and are factually incorrect. Further Devadasi are a distinct group who are now called "Isai Vellalar". There is a wikipedia article already on this. Enough said. The scientific article you mentioned seems to be genuine. However there is one problem. It seems to indicate that its source is the same old infamous E. Thurston author of Castes and Tribes Of Southern India, which you are referring to already. So no new source there.
The fact that these are from Chrisitan Missionary websites is even better. They have no gain in saying this just about the Sengunthar/ Kaikola caste. Moreover, its a serious claim by a group regarding the status of a community. So they would always be able to provide more sources if someone were to contact them. As for the journal research article, it speaks for itself, its a research article and Thurston's book is one of the most famous books on Indian history. Moreover the statement is not what they're called once they go into sacred prostitution (as in Devadasi etc.) but rather from which community they came from historically. These articles and then some, would prove that beyond doubt regarding those communities if we were to go into arbitration.
[edit] TMS and Hindu article
The Hindu article is quite interesting. However there is one problem. It seems to state that the source of that information is the priest of the temple whom the article writer was interviewing. "According to the priest,...". Any more info from other sources is appreciated. Since clearly it stated that Karikala cholan established VM which you claim are TMS group, I am sure you will be able to find the original source of that assertion. Also what happened to the Pallava king connection? Suddenly it is Pallava kings by inference and no longer solid evidence. Is there not a single stone inscription by Pallava or Chola king having the word Vellala and Mudaliar in them together? How unfortunate??!! It is so surprising since TMS is the feudal lord and directly below the King himself. Does not your logic say that you must be seeing inscriptions by the hundreds if not thousands about Vellala Mudaliars??!! To separate facts and fiction we need solid evidence. It is well known that Vellalas were quite high in TN society before British times. But where is the evidence of the royal connection and feudal lordship? It seems only during the 19th and 20th century Vellala Mudaliars became powerful as far as we go from E Thurston which is the only legitimate source given.
Not quite, review the article again. The priest gives the name of the deity but the author reasons that what the priest says should be true by connecting it to King Karikala Chola's time. Hence its the author who is asserting this fact that Karikala Chola divided Tondai Nadu and settled the Vellala Mudaliars. But these were not all the Thondaimandalam Mudaliars, only those who belonged to the Thondaimandalam region annexed by the Chola king.
No, the Chola King did not create the TMS group. We existed even before the Pallavas, but we were given the title Mudaliar only during the Pallava reign. This article was just for your reference so that people don't think I'm making some random claim. This also proves that we did not just get the title during the British period or in the last few centuries. I will post a concrete evidence soon. Not all evidences are available in the electronic form on the net. Thats what libraries are for.
Do not keep repeating your folklore. Give evidence in the form of inscription that says Vellala or Mudali or any such thing. Dont cite another book which picks it up from the same folklore.
[edit] Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala Mudaliars
The Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala did not become forward caste overnight or all of a sudden nor is the Tamil Nadu Government and Government of India so naive, so as to declare them forward caste without a reason. It is true that many castes use the name Vellalar but how come the TamilNadu Government and Indian Government recognise us as FC while they label the others as BC/MBC etc. ? Any logical person would have asked this question at some point if you've been following this discussion. Here are a few reasons.:
1. During the Bhakti movement in Tamil History, a lot of people contributed to the Saiva Siddhanta philsopshy. Of all these people the most prominent were 12 Alwars and 63 Nayanmars who contributed a lot. The 12 Alwars were Vaishnavites (followers) of Vishnu while the 63 Nayanmars were Saivites who were devotees of Shiva.The Nayanmars were not all Brahmins. Of the 63, some of the Nayanmars were from the vellala caste. Every major Shiva temple has statues for the Alwars and Nayanmars.
2. This vellalar caste from which these Nayanmars came from is Saiva Vellala. The Governments declared us the Saiva Vellala, in order to differentiate us from the other castes which use the Vellalar title. The word Saiva in the caste name is not just an indication of our food habits. The Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala is a subsect of the Saiva Vellala just as Tirunelveli Saiva Vellala, etc. is. The word "Thondaimandalam" in the caste name signifies our origin in south India and is named after the area ruled by the Pallavan King, Thondaiman. We existed even before the Bhakti movement during the Chola period.
Here is a reference http://www.dlshq.org/download/nayanar.htm that gives a brief description of the Nayanmars. It would only say Vellala and not Saiva Vellala as the need for adding Saiva did not arise until later after some other castes started adding Vellalar to the name. We have already proved our lineage to the Governments and its not such a grey area.
4. Here is another link, which is from the The Hindu newspaper website that talks about how the King Karikala Chola divided Tondai nadu and placed the Vellala Mudaliars.
http://www.hindu.com/fr/2004/09/03/stories/2004090300780600.htm
If the Chola King, placed Vellala Mudaliars in Tondai Nadu then any logical person can deduce that they must have existed before that period. Who were preceding Kingdoms to the Cholas ? The Pallavas. If you read about Pallava Kingdoms and Chola Kingdoms then you would notice that some regions of the Pallava Kingdom were later annexed by the Cholas. Adequate evidence can be found at Connemara Public Libraries which was a part of the Museum and the Tanjore Library associated with the Brihadeeswara Temple regarding the ancestry of the Thondaimandala Mudaliars. Its no big secret.
Any reference to Vellala Mudaliars is a reference to ThondaiMandala Vellala Mudaliars, the Thuluva Vellala are not Vellala, they are Thevars and are from the Mukkulathor community who started using the Mudaliar name in recent times. This has nothing to do with the feudal title Mudaliar. This is analogous to someone adding Count or Duke to their names and claiming to be of aristocratic lineage.
This is reason for the origin of the Tamil saying, "kallar, maravar, agamudaiyar mella mella vanthu vellalar ahi, mudaliar sonnar".
It does not make even more sense when Sengunthars use it and it is pathetic. The Sengunthars are weavers. Why were they given the feudal title reserved for agricultural landlords ?
You seem to know so much about the average Thondai mandal Saiva Vellala. Where is the source for this ? Maybe you should check your own roots before questioning mine.
The following section is for your benefit and it talks about who the Sengunthars are. Of course with adequate legitimate references.
[edit] Other facts
Any facts or fiction about when TMS started adding TM and S before their V names??
Still No info on the caste name in community certificate?! Seriously is it some big secret?
Caste name is Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala and we are one of the elite groups in the bigger SV community. But remember that the SV community is not that big when compared to other groups in North and South India. We (TMSV) do not perform priestly duties and don't wear threads. I'm not going to generalize regarding marriage with others of the SV community, however the SV Pillaimar(as in Tirunelveli) are considered very close. But in this modern era, its at the discretion of the indvidual families.
[edit] Sengunthars
The Sengunthars are labelled as Backward class by the Tamil Nadu and Andhra Governments for a valid reason. You can keep your theories about how intelligently they moved from FC to BC to yourself.
Here are references to the legitimate Government of Tamil Nadu, India and Andhra Government, India, websites which give a list of BC/MBC/OBC classes.
http://www.tn.gov.in/bcmbcmw/bclist.htm
http://ncbc.nic.in/backward-classes/ap.html
Its is common knowledge in South India as to who the Sengunthar/ Kaikolar are and its not my problem if you've been living in a very close knit community or unaware of this.
"Contending identities: Sacred prostitution and reform in colonial South India Priyadarshini Vijaisri A1, A1 Centre for the Study of Developing Societies (CSDS), New Delhi" South Asia: Journal of South Asian Studies Publisher: Routledge, part of the Taylor & Francis Group Issue: Volume 28, Number 3 / December 2005 Pages: 387 - 411
To view the complete article just register, its free.
Here are the links :
http://journalsonline.tandf.co.uk/link.asp?id=jv31l27518262711 If you cannot access it then just go to the following page and follow one of the links
[edit] Clarification on Devadasi
The webpages connecting Devadasi with Kaikola are from Christian Missionary websites and are factually incorrect. Further Devadasi are a distinct group who are now called "Isai Vellalar". There is a wikipedia article already on this. Enough said. The scientific article you mentioned seems to be genuine. However there is one problem. It seems to indicate that its source is the same old infamous E. Thurston author of Castes and Tribes Of Southern India, which you are referring to already. So no new source there.
The fact that these are from Chrisitan Missionary websites is even better. They have no gain in saying this just about the Sengunthar/ Kaikola caste. Moreover, its a serious claim by a group regarding the status of a community. So they would always be able to provide more sources if someone were to contact them. As for the journal research article, it speaks for itself, its a research article and Thurston's book is one of the most famous books on Indian history. Moreover the statement is not what they're called once they go into sacred prostitution (as in Devadasi etc.) but rather from which community they came from historically. These articles and then some, would prove that beyond doubt regarding those communities if we were to go into arbitration.
[edit] Inter Caste Marriage and caste reservation
A caste is superior only because of its average wealth and education. If all brahmins were uneducated or poor, brahmins cannot claim superiority. However due to their excellent rapport with the British, it is to be noted that before independence Brahmins held on to 70% of the official posts even though their population was only 5% (approx).
A Gounder can marry a Pillai or a Brahmin or a Vellala Mudaliar. Unfortunately this is not recommended due to differing life styles and cultures. Of course in the modern world any doctor can marry another doctor. Any IT engineer can marry another IT engineer since their lifestyles are similar.
All this discussion would not be needed, if in India lifestyles or occupation or education was not determined by caste or family. Unfortunately we cannot change history and hence we need reservation.
Even if a rich Dalit marries a poor Thondai Mandala saiva Vellala Mudaliar, the dalit will be considered a loser as the dalit has not respected traditions. This is the same as a Hindu marrying a muslim. One of their cultures will not be passed on their children. Hence whose culture was not passed on, is the loser.
Seems like you're the biggest loser of them all. What kind of traditions are you trying to protect ? Moreover traditions have nothing to do with the amount of money a person has. The above statement proves that you have a terrible complex and are doing the same mistakes as people did in the past. What's wrong if you marry a Dalit ? The reasons you're giving are so lame. Stop generalising and keep your traditons within your caste, Sengunthar that is. Your opinion stinks big time.
Obviously your IQ and logic is very low. But I'll clarify again for knowledge sake, each tradition is as good as another. So Im happy about my traditions. Are you happy about yours? Obviously not. I suppose you did an intercaste marriage or planning to do one just to get some reservation benefits. I appreciate it very much and wish you good luck. In fact if all Indians did this, then there would not be any caste problem.
[edit] British Imperialism & Arabic Domination
Because British promoted people who have supported their rule, like Ettappa certain segments of the people became rich and powerful. Then they became Mudaliars and this can be seen clearly in the case of Sri Lankan society. See the article in Wikipedia about the Mudaliars in Sri Lanka and how they were created by the British to promote their rule.
The same division among the Indians was misused by the British and Arabs to conquer India. Still our old prejudices are not gone and we keep repeating the same mistakes as our ancestors.
We must all realize that we are all equal instead of claiming superiority and inferority.
FYI: The FC castes existed even before the British came into India. Specifically they are not labelled FC because they helped the British. Your IQ seems to be in single digit. It was based upon your profession. A Dalit/ untouchable was termed as such because of the work he did. Caste system was not invented by the British. It was present in the Indian society even before the British arrived here. Now that you're caste has been labelled Backward class, blame the British. Stop cribbing and look around. The British are long gone, why does the TN Govt still classify certain castes as BC/ MBC. Its because the caste system existed for tens of centuries well before the British set foot on Indian soil.
First of all Wikipedia is not a good citation as things change by the minute. Now that you've brought it up, look at the "Mudaliars in Sri Lanka" under the Trivia section in this very article. See how it talks about a homogenous group of Mudaliars that existed before the British, thats what I'm talking about. FYI: I did not add this Trivia section here. I'm just saying that the Thondaimandala Saiva Vellalars are this original homogeneous group. Maybe its you who got the Mudaliar title by bending over to the British. No wonder the TN Govt refuses to recognize you as FC inspite of your high status and economic power.
Definitely Vellalas were more pwerful than other groups during the time before British rule. After that Brahmins and other groups came into prominence. How they achieved this? God only knows. It is very true that TMS is the only community that is FC and using title Mudaliar as far as I know. If there are others please add them also, Id like to know more about it. I dont feel sorry certain castes are labelled BC. FYI castes like Sengunthar, KVG etc successfully moved from FC to BC after independence. Infact Vanniars moved from FC to MBC and that is due to their intelligence in politics. In fact, I feel sorry for the TMS for being labelled FC since they are not clearly highly educated or rich in status as Brahmins.
[edit] Historical evidence needed for assertions
For all assertions we need historical evidence in the form of inscriptions or literary evidence. This would be very helpful for those who are interested in knowing the exact truth and those who are interested in gaining knowledge about the history of Tamilnadu.
This will be very useful esp. about the claim
"This was only given to some prominent Vellalars of the Pallava kingdom". When did Pallava kings start giving mudaliar title? Please indicate your source as it would be very beneficial to learn not only about Mudaliar but also about other castes.
Why don't we start with why the Sengunthars are Backward class. If they are Mudaliars and are well off and have a high status in the society (your very own words), why does the Governement of TamilNadu, Government of Andhra label them as Backward class ? Why did you delete these references in the first place ? Why doesn't the TN Govt declare people from all castes calling themsleves as Mudaliars as FC, as according to you Mudaliars are supposed to have a high status and are economically powerful in the society, atleast the Sengunthar Mudaliars are, as per you ? So if Sengunthars Mudaliars are really powerful then why are they still BC ? This is the sole reason the TN Govt refuses to recognize random ppl jumping around calling themselves as Mudaliar such as yourself as FC, inspite of all the high status. You refuse to accept the the internet references as you say they've been created by a particular caste. Then please read the book, Castes & Tribes of South India - ET.Thurston, VII 361. Do you need directions to a library too? For more sources go to the Connemara Public Library in Madras and search for the historical archives about the Pallava kingdoms. You can also find the sources about the origin of various titles and castes.
You are only repeating what others have given as evidence in your caste specific websites. Cant you get any evidence from stone inscriptions or literary evidence given by Indian authors. If you have access to the book, can you type some text from the book and put it in this website? It'll be a great source of knowledge. Can you also give more such specific references esp. from the time before British rule, such as tamil literature and stone inscriptions. I can accept these sources as factual if it is on a legitimate website not a website created by a particular caste. I am objective and not prone to emotional outbursts. If anybody has easy access to libraries in Madras, please visit them and share any knowledge obtained. I have given evidence for the fact that Sengunthars got prize from the King itself for service to Chola army and hence my claim that Sengunthars are Kshatriyas. Go to hindu newspaper website. Search for Kaikola and chola and you will find the evidence. Cant you give any such evidence for all your claims. Maybe you dont have any evidence and that is why you are repeating like a parrot. Savvy?
[edit] Inferiority Complex affecting some FC
Some FC people have a big inferiority complex because even though the Government classifies them as FC and they are born in a so called illustrious caste, they themselves individually do not have the forward caste characteristics they are supposed to have and hence feel inferior in their mind. What can one do except consult a samiar? But they should realize all the classes are equal and have equal respect be they Vellala or Dalit or Brahmin. They should also leave their old prejudices and come and live in the 21st century. Avoid repeating that we are first class or first layer, etc. Dont call other Vellalas as second layer. Of Course some Mudaliar are forward caste and recognized by the TN goverment as such.
The FC's don't have a complex. The fact that the Sengunthars who are Backward class and have assumed the title Mudaliar for the sake of social upliftment proves that you're the one with the complex. Get a life. You are the one who blew your horn and said that the Sengunthars belong to the Kshatriya community. If Sengunthars really belong to the Kshatriya community, then why are they BC ? Aren't they supposed to be FC according to the defintion of a Kshatriya (don't give your lame version of Kshatriya)? Next when you were proven wrong fair and square you said they were "Soldiers". After a few days, you changed the word "Soldiers in the Chola Army" to "Warriors in the Chola Army". Now these things prove that you're the one with the complex. Again the argument is not if one Mudaliar is superior to another or if people from FC are superior to people from BC/MBC or vice versa, but rather if you're a Mudaliar at all. Stop diverting the argument.
I see your problem. You think that only people of TMS caste can use Mudaliar title. That unfortunately is not within your control. However can you clarify what is the name of TMS community as per the Community certificate given by TN government? I just want to know more about TMS from historical sources. If you want to know more about Sengunthars search for it on the hindu website where it gives evidences of Sengunthar since the time of Chola empire as gaining prizes from the king himself for services in the army. As far as I know that is sufficient proof that Sengunthars belong to Kshatriyas. At that time Sengunthars were definitely not using Mudaliar in their caste name and even now Sengunthars dont use it. They use it only as a title. That is the earliest hard critical evidence available as far as I know. You can look at the evidence and come to whatever conclusion you infer, Im not bothered. Give me your definition of kshatriya. What are TMS, Sudras according to your definition? Why are you concerned if somebody is using solid evidence to prove that they belong to warrior class (Kshatriyas)? It has been mentioned repeatedly that Mudaliar is not a caste name. If you cant accept that, then you are like the guy who told Rama is stepfather of Sita. Now seeing all the hullabaloo you are raising, .... Stop trying to put the castes using Mudaliar title into a hierarchy and claim your nonsense without evidence.
[edit] Misc
Mudalair is not a caste but a title of various people. RaveenS 22:34, 22 March 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Talk page, not article
Please do not use the article space for your conversations. That belongs on the talk page. Thanks, Valley2city 05:29, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Reg. Mudaliar
Disclaimer: I'm not picking or trying to demean anybody.
1. Some ppl have to stop speculating and start getting your history straight about Mudaliars. I'm sure you have access to some good libraries if you cannot find info on the net.
2. I don't have a problem w/ other castes using the title in recent years. But other castes have to stop trying to take credit for the origin of the Mudaliar title. It doesn't make sense. Mudaliar is a feudal title, a title of rank, given to a person who organized agricultural raids in the Pallava kingdom. Only prominent Vellalars or agricultural landlords organised these raids.
a)This was only given to some prominent Vellalars of the Pallava kingdom which is why the TN Govt refuses to see the other castes (BC/ MBC) using the title in the same light as Thondaimandala Saiva Vellala who are FC in order differentiate the original population. If its as simple as adding a title at the end of your name then TN Govt(note that some BC/MBC castes are also listed in Andhra and other Indian Govt as BC/MBC) and other Indian Govts would be grossly misrepresenting a whole community by labelling them BC or MBC.
3. I don't have a problem about anybody belonging to BC/ MBC. If you've got a complex then why don't you try and get your caste removed from BC/MBC and move them to FC.
4. A few people over here have been unable to digest being labelled as BC/MBC. I can understand this, nobody likes to be told they are from an inferior caste. At the same time they act as though they don't believe in the caste system at all.
a) If you truly didn't believe in the caste system then why do you keep repeating over and over that "we don't marry outside our caste". To be more specific, why do the Sengunthars don't marry a Dalit etc. The truth is, the society will look down upon you. I'm not necessarily saying this is correct but you have to stop acting as though you don't believe in the system at all. If you really didn't care then you would not be here trying to prove a point.
b) The ppl from BC/ MBC don't seem to have a problem calling themselves BC/ MBC while getting into an educational institution. Most of the BC/ MBC who use the Mudaliar title are definitely well off. Don't you then think its an unfair advantage over the FC candidates(of course, there are also truly brilliant ppl from BC/MBC)? I 've personally seen about hundreds of BC/MBC candidates bypass FC candidates due to this inspite of having a lower rank. Don't you think it makes more sense to set reservations based upon financial status ? The truth is the ppl from BC/ MBC don't want to be labelled as such but at the same time want to enjoy the privileges.
c) The FC's aren't creating caste problems nowadays. Its the people from BC who keep fighting with the Dalits, take Tirunelveli for example. The truth is every group needs to step over someone else to feel good. First we fight within ourselves, then fight with the Gounders, Pillais etc. Then the non-brahmins fight with the brahmins. On an Indian level the north Indians look down upon the south Indians. On a world level it doesn't matter if you're a Kashmiri/ Punjabi and fair, some white ppl would still consider you inferior to them if you're not a white.
Maybe if all the BC/ MBC start becoming FC then these problems would slowly cease to exist.
Critics welcome.
Mudaliar 16:06, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Some editing suggestions
The lead paragraph of this article needs to explain that this is a caste in India. It needs to start out with basic info, before details. Since the article is in English, when the term Mudaliyār is defined, it should probably mention what language it is in. I know there has been disputes about some of the details, but these larger, more encyclopedic issues should be dealt with first. Imagine any speaker of English, reading the first paragraph of this article -- what do they need to know, first to understand this topic, without any foreknowledge? Cheers. Dina 00:38, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, law, and sex
I have posted this Rfc where it belongs. Hopefully, outside editors will appear on the talk page and weigh in. The Rfc posted above uses the format of an Rfc on a user. A user Rfc must have at least two people verify it, and be posted at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User conduct. This dispute does not qualify, as it is a dispute between the two of you. Let me stress this, for when other editors arrive to weigh in: new comments on a talk page should be placed at the bottom. Cheers. Dina 17:43, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Saiva Vellalas and Sankritization
Due to a process called Sansrikritisation (Every caste takes up the habits and customs of its immediate superior to reach the superior status), some section of velalars gave up meat eating and became vegetarian (They are know as Saiva Velalars). This process had started as early as Pallava Period (700 AD) but even the great tamil literature "Periya Puranam" talks about Velalar as a single grouping. The actual mention of Saiva Vellalars as a caste grouping is available in literature only after the establishment of Telugu Nayakar rule in Tamil Nadu.(1600 AD).
Hey periapuranam wrote by a sengunthar named sekizhar alias uthamachola pallavar he is not tondaimandalavellalar,Sekizhar's brother name was pallavarayar,if you want evidence please visit kundrathur sivan temple
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tamil_velalar/message/1[1]
This is blasphemy! I'm sorry but you've been misinformed. It's well known that Cekkizhar's given name was ArulmozhiThevar and he was a Vellala and a minister in the kingdome of Kulothonga Chola. Thevar means Lord and was usually used by Vellalars in ancient Tamil kingdom. You can verify this with the Mukkulathor group in TN. I agree with you on the name of his brother Pallavarayar. Rayar was used by Vellalars and Pallavarayar means "Lord of the Pallavas" and he was a vellala. As for whether he was the ruler of all Pallavas that is a different debate. Vellala 14:21, 29 March 2007 (UTC) please come to kundrathur the birthplace of sekizhar you can find out who he is ,he is not kulaguru of vellala he is kulaguru of kaikola.
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- This place is full of retards. Cekkizhar was sengunthar it seems. Your ignorance is my bliss. Sekkizhar's real name is Arulmozhithevar. He has been clearly identified as one of us by well known historians and even the Kallars and Maravars agree to this. Thevar means lord (after "Deva") and occurs in many Vellalar names. The ppl whom you are referring to as the Kallars, initally used "Kallar" (for eg: King Thondaman Kallar) but then later it became associated with its literal meaning and was used derogatively. Hence they have now changed to Thevar title in recent times. But this does not mean that "Thevar" was exclusively used by Kallars and Maravars.Mudaliar 14:45, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
So ? I have always said that we were Tamils. I don't know whay your POV is on this but true tamils are what they call dravidians. Again, the whole of Tamil people were sanskritized. Hinduism is not a Tamil religion. The Brahmins brought it from the north. This is out of topic but to just explain: read Andronovo civilization. RigVeda was not composed in Indus valley but it describes the journey from possibly the Andronovo civilization until the Indo-Iranian Aryan split. There is so much commonality between Avestan texts and RigVeda that the places, characters all occur repeatedly in both viz. Indra, Varuna, Vrtra etc. I never denied sanskritization. You're the one claiming Kshatriya status. Anyone outside of Airyanam Vaeja and AryaVarta were sanskritized. For those within those areas, the Aryans imposed the varna status which was based on color only. Nowadays, they give explanations such as White is for brahmin as he is pure, kshatriya means he turns red etc., what a crock of ...! This is to deny the fact that Hinduism is foreign to India. But all saiva vellalars are not mudaliars. Are all ancient vellalars mudaliars ? No. You asked for inscriptions. Check the very same website that you gave your references from. Search for "mudaliyar". There are so many inscriptions with lastname as mudaliar. kaikola, it says kaikkola-mudali, agambadi-mudali. But for most of the ppl with surname mudaliyar no cast is mentioned. Does it mean they have no caste ? No they are the mudaliyar tribe I'm talking about. Check out how so many of 'em are described as Nayanars. Who are Nayanars ? They are Saiva Adhinams. Ofcourse you can dismiss this.Mudaliar 05:53, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Saiva Vellalas as a group created only after 1600 AD
According to the message, evidence for Saiva Vellalas as a caste is available only after 1600 AD. This is the same as you claiming that all Nayanmars who are Vellalas belong to Saiva Vellalas. It could be any Vellala group out of the 200 or so known.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Vellalars were the first tamils to be sanskritised. Not any other caste group. Most Tamil ppl know this for a fact. You can find references in many tamil literary works regarding this starting with Sangam literature. A group of ppl were termed as Vellalars and divided into subgroups to take over Virgin lands and make it suitable for agriculture. Each of these groups were led by a Mudaliyar. This was not a pretty job as there were many squatters and tribal people who did not recognise the rule of the Tamil Kingdom. Mudaliyar means "a person of first rank". Where ? In the class room ? In the military ? No, in the feudal society. Its a feudal title. Feudal literally means relating to land and nothig else. Once a Mudaliyar and his group of Vellalars converted a piece of land, they then collected the produce and paid a part of it to the King. Sanskritization was not a overnight process. Its spread of centuries. When more people started claiming themselves as Vellalars, the original group declared themselves as Saiva Vellalars in order to distinguish themselves from the more recent Vellalars. Mudaliar 00:27, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I accept that there are too many Vellalas. So they started calling themselves with different subcaste name like KK, S, PK, and so many others. How are you claiming that the original vellalas were saiva? They could be Pandiya Vellala or Payur Kottai or Karkarthar etc. Among all the vellalas SV is the only Vellala who became vegeterian. It could be any Vellala who wanted to get sankritized faster and hence became vegeterian. But that is not the relevant info. I dont care about SV's history or greatness. What is relevant is if SV was created only in 1600 AD, how can we know for sure that among vellalas Mudaliar title was first used by a SV. It could be KKV or PKV.
Venki 23:19, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mudaliyar title inscriptions
There are inscriptions about Thimappa Mudaliyar who is obviously a Telugu, Chokkavilli Bhattar alias Mudaliyar who is a Brahmin. So are you saying all these are the original Mudaliyar tribe from whom Saiva Vellala Mudaliyar descended? Interesting!! The reason why Kaikkola-mudali is mentioned because Kaikkolas were able to add mudali title as their birth right. The same goes for agambadi, samanta, etc. I dont find any vellala-mudali so far. If you find any let me know.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Mudali is kaikola's birth right ? Mudaliyar is a feudal title. Why is it Kaikolar's birth right ? You will not find any vellala-Mudali because a Mudaliyar implied that the person was a Vellalar.
If Mudaliar implied Vellala then why are telugus and brahmins called as mudaliar?
[edit] nayanar title
These Nayanars were the original title of saiva adhinams according to you. So there must have been a title change from nayanar to mudaliar. So back to our fundamental question : Is Mudaliyar a caste? Where there a original mudaliyar? I dont think so.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Just imagine an instance in Time say T1, no caste groups existed. No Mukkulathors, No Kaikolars just the Brahmins who have just arrived. But of course there were weavers, there were ppl in the Kings army and all that but they have not yet been grouped and give a name. We were all Tamils but practising different professions. Then a group of ppl were termed as Vellalars. "So you are a peasant ? Okie from now on you belong to Vellalar group. And yeah one more thing, don't mix with the other Tamils." So what were these ppl before becoming Vellalars ? They were just Tamils no different than the rest except for their profession. One man was called Mudaliyar and led each of the Vellalar subgroups to take over tribal lands. This is the original Mudaliyar tribe settled in Tondai Nadu. Now you're asking me what were these before becoming Mudaliyars ? They were just Tamil ppl with no caste. Some of the Nayanars are described as hunters. The Saiva Vellala are the first group of Vellalars who were sanskritised. There was no other caste in southern India before Vellalars. Only Brahmins and shudras. This is the reason they called themselves Saiva Vellalar in order to differntiate from the new group of Vellalars. This is the sanskritisation process. They aren't related to one another except that they all came from the same gene pool of Tamils.Mudaliar 00:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Vellala title
There is a lot of vellalas described in the inscriptions.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
So ? All vellalars are not Mudaliyars ? Mudaliyar was the title of the leader of a group of Vellalars who performed agricultural raids to take over tribal lands.
[edit] Quality of source and revert edits
Now I assume that you are willing to accept these inscriptions as valid, since you are claiming them as valid proofs. So why dont you revert all the edits about Kaikkola-mudali??!!
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
You first. Do you concur that we're the original group of Mudaliyars to be settled in Tondai-Nadu ? The inscriptions clearly show the period of sanskiritisation. it says Kaikola-mudali and other xxxx-mudali because they're arent the original Mudaliyar tribe (the original Mudaliyars were Vellalars).Mudaliar 00:28, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The original group of Vellalas who were settled in Tondai Nadu was KKV group according to British Sources whose original info came from KKV itself. The king was Adondai chola. Hence I asked you whether KKV is same as TMSV and you replied no and said KKV were Telugus from their names.
Venki 23:07, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mudali keyword in whatisindia.com
Search for Mudali keyword then you will understand how the word was used.
Venki 23:01, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
We can start the cycle again, your call.
Inspite of the claims, there is no solid proof for the claims you are making. The Tondai-nadu was first settled by KKV according to British (via KKV) sources. There is no proof apart from the Hindu article for your side of the argument and even that states Vellala Mudaliar and not Saiva Vellala Mudaliar. Obviously it has to be Vellalar. The Mudaliar was added because it was Tondai Nadu. It could have been any Vellala.
Mudali means an officer. Certain castes were allowed to use it. Kaikolas because they were soldiers. Agambadis because they were bodyguards. etc.
Venki 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Mudaliar is strictly a feudal title. if your not a vellalar then you are just using it for social upliftment. check below regarding your saying about agamudaiyars.
[edit] Mudaliar does not mean a group or ancestry nor does it give greatness
Maybe I have to stress this. By saying mudaliyar or adding mudaliyar does not give greatness to a group. The discussion is was there a original Mudaliar group? No. Can we know for sure a particular group was the first to get Mudali title as hereditary right? Based on evidence we can make educated guesses.
Oh yeah, it does. not because of the title, its because of the ppl who were given this title. The Mudaliyars from the very first vellalar group were indeed given this title and their descendants have the birth right to use this title.
[edit] Another message from Saiva Vellalar newsgroup
It also seems to state that Mudaliar was not a group name. Only a title for those who served the king.
Mudaliars and Pillais are both titles. Some scholars think that the title Mudaliar was given to leaders of various castes/commnities during the Chola Empire who were responsible for collecting taxes from the peasants. In that sense one can compare them to the Zamindars who did similar work for the Mughal emperor or the various Nawabs, or the British Collectors who collected taxes for the British East India Company and later the British Empire. Apparently there were Mudaliars among brahmins as well as paraiyars, though a lot of these titles were indeed awarded to agricultural communities.
A lot of the castes that have the Mudaliar title today seemed to have served the King in someway. The Agamudaiyars are said to be the Agambadiyars or the bodyguards of the King. The KaikkoLas and the Sengunthars served the Kings too. There is a saying that goes something like "kaLLar, maRavar, agamudaiyaar mella mella veLLaLar aanaar." Those three castes are primarily martial castes that served the King and had land grants and in peace did agricultural work.
But it is the Saiva veLLaLars who were entitled to the posts of heads of Saiva Atheenams who seemed to have been really powerful. Along with the brahmins they had state patronage, usually were administrators of the Saiva temples that dot the Tamil country as well as the lands that were associated with these temples. It is this group that was powerful in Sri Lanka.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tamil_velalar/message/2[2]
Venki 23:34, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
The complete saying is: kallar, maravar, agamudiayr mella mella vanthu vellalar ahi mudaliyar sonnar.
Go check with any tamil historian or teacher regarding this saying. It clearly states the sanskritisation process. You must be a vellalar to use this title because it was a feudal title.
According to you, all Vellalar then must use Mudaliar title. Why are they using Pillai title and Gounder title? Why other saiva vellalas are using Pillai title?
[edit] Concluding the argument about the word Mudali and its usage
To conclude the argument, we dont have to start all over again. If both of us have presented all proofs, then we can ask an independent editor, to look at our proofs and see whether there exists a Mudaliar tribe who first settled the Tondai Nadu and who are called the Tondai-mandala saiva Vellala.
My argument is Mudali is a title given by the king to certain groups which served the king. Later it became a title that gave prestige and used by everybody who became rich. There is no Mudali tribe. There were many groups which used the Mudali title during 1000AD. Many have now disappeared. A Few remain. A few other groups have started using the title starting from the British era (17th-19th century). Kaikkolas were using the title around 1100 AD (proof given). It is a right accepted and granted by the Kings both Chola and Pallava.(proof given). So Kaikolas cannot have started using it for the purpose of social upliftment during the Nayak times (13-16th century) or early British era (17th-19th century) or during the modern age (20-21st century).
Regarding TMSV, it was claimed that TMSV first settled the Tondai Nadu during King Karikala chola time. On the contrary, there is a British report that states that Tondai Nadu was settled by King Adondai chola son of King Kulotunga chola and the group was called Kondai Katti Vellala (KKV). (Proof given) The group Saiva Vellala was mentioned as a distinct group in literary sources only from 1600 AD. So any proof that TMSV used the Mudaliar title can start only from 1600 AD. So it cannot be claimed that Saiva Vellala is the first to use Mudali title. Further, most other Saiva Vellala groups use the title Pillai.
Finally, I have no time to keep reverting. Venki 00:30, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
Saiva Vellala are the first of the Vellalars. Go and check with any Vellalar caste group or any elderly Brahmins. We're are the first Vellalar group to be sanskritised according to the Brahminical religion in south India. We're right below them in the Tamil caste society. This is the reason we're FC. Not because we're blue eyed or look like Brad Pitt and Giselle bundchen but because they chose us first to be sanskritised. This is the Hindu religion. Yes many saiva vellalars use title such as Pillai, that is because their ancestors were given the title Pillaimar by the kings for being the kings advisors. They did not take part in any agricultural raids. My argument is just that the ancestors of TMSV were the original Mudaliyar tribe belonging to the very first Vellalar group. When these people were given the Mudaliyar title no other caste group had yet been formed except for other Vellalars. You can find so many thevar groups on yahoo groups who repeat the same saying as I have mentioned above regarding "kallar, maravar.. mudaliar sonnar." When they were kallars my ancestors were already called Vellalars and one guy already held the title Mudaliyar. This is the reason I am saying we belong to the original Mudaliyar tribe.Mudaliar 00:48, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Is discussion on Mudaliar concluded or not??
If the discussion on Mudaliar title and origin is concluded to the satisfaction of all editors and there is no more discussion, Clean it up to remove the clutter. The page is now at 80 Kilobytes more than the recommended size and needs cleaning.
Saedirof 18:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Not concluded. Check: Revision as of 09:33, 2 February 2007. Wiki does not recommend deletion of talk pages. Mudaliar 23:20, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Kaikolar
Kaikolars were originally weavers and were only militarized during the Chola reign. The Tamil caste society was a ladder system. There were 2 ladders viz., Right-Hand Castes and Left-Hand Castes. The Right Hand Castes consisted of Brahmins at the top followed by Vellalars, Chettiars and then Mukkulathor in that order. The artisans and other castes fell into the left-hand castes which were below the right-hand caste ladder. You were not allowed to jump from left-hand caste ladder to right-hand caste ladder but you can climb the rungs within your ladder. The process of climbing up the ladder is sanskritisation. The Kaikolars were part of the left hand caste ladder along with saliyars, etc. The Dalits were part of neither of these caste ladders. They were below the left hand caste ladder. "Kallar, Maravar, ..mella, mella, vanthu vellalar ahi mudaliyar sonnar" : this saying describes the way the Mukkulathors climbed up the ladder over time to become vellalars and then finally called themselves as mudaliars. Kaikolars were weavers originally and are classified as a left-hand caste for this reason only. The original soldiers are the Mukkulathor and the regiments were clearly called "Kaikolar padai" to differentiate them from the original "Maravars" belonging to the Mukkulathor community. Are you contesting that Kaikolars aren't a left hand caste ?
Mudaliar 21:18, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] left hand vs. right hand
what has the left hand vs. right hand got to do with the origin of Kaikolars? Kaikolars were classified under both sides based on the region. Further it was not a rigid system. The same group could be in either side and change sides. However not all groups could do that.
Venki 23:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
You cannot change sides. You are just skewing history to your favor. If Kaikolars were soldiers initially then they would be in the right-hand caste ladder along with Maravars. They only belonged to the left hand caste ladder. Kaikolars started out as weavers and not as soldiers. Deal with it. Kaikola musicians evolved into Devadasis. Do you want proof for this apart from the above references. If they were soldiers before the 9th/10th century then they would have been called Maravars. What were they doing before becoming soldiers in the Chola army ?Mudaliar 23:29, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Proof is available of the fluidity of this left-hand and right-hand system. Information on what TMSV were doing before brahmins came to TN could help. Then probably it is the same thing that Kaikolars were also doing.
Venki 15:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] TMV vs TMSV
Is there any information available on whether TMV and TMSV are one and the same? Secondly in which order the TM epithet and Saiva epithet added to Vellala caste name?
Venki 23:22, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
1. Brahmins come from north and group ppl as Vellalars. 2. Other groups climb the social ladder and start calling themselves as Vellalars. So the original Vellalars start calling themselves as Saiva Vellala to differentiate from the others. This was done as they cannot go any higher as there are only Brahmins in the ladder. Saiva Vellala cannot become Brahmins by wearing thread as they don't have Aryan lineage. They are dravidians called shudras. Saiva Vellalars are the very first of Vellalars, otherwise the first of the Vellalars will not let them skip the rung. 3. TM was added to denote that they're not any other saiva vellala but the original Mudaliars. Mudaliar 23:52, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] A new TMV group is needed
If TMV is not same as TMSV, then a new category is needed for this group. Venki 15:50, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Okie, I'll play your game. You can be Vethalam and I'll be Vikram.
[edit] "Pallava is Mudali is Kshatriya is Kaikola : An analysis" (Taken from Sengunthar page where Venki claims Pallava lineage)
Ewwwww....Venki Duh! What a crock of shit! You're just lying big time. Yeah right, Pallava royal family renamed themselves as Kaikola and then took up weaving. They sold their daughters to become Devadasis in Shiva temples to earn money. Now from the claim that Pallavas are Kaikola, you will claim Pallavan Narasimhavarman is your relative in the near future. Your messed up all over. Keep it flowing.
Mudaliar 20:40, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Dispute Resolution Survey
Due to the many revert wars going on between User-Mudaliar and other users including myself in this article Mudaliar , following the suggestion of the admin I propose that we conduct a survey among the editors of this article.
In the talk page, please state your opinion of two contending issues.
a. Who are the kondaikatti vellala KKV or TondaiMandala Vellala TMV and what is their relationship with the group TondaiMandala Saiva Vellala?
b. Why is the group Sengunthar being denigrated in this article for over 100 sentences when other mudaliar groups have only 10 sentences about them? Is it necessary to describe only about the false negative aspects of Kaikolars?
Your opinions should be brief. For example my opinion is:
a. I'd like to know more about the KKV or TMV and who they are and how they are connected to TMSV? b. Sengunthars have their own page in Sengunthar so there is no need to describe them in detail here. Just a short paragraph is enough similar to Agamudayars or Kerala Mudali or TMSV.
Note to User:Mudaliar -- let this be here along with your version of this article so people can understand what the dispute is about.
No sock puppets please. Venki 21:45, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Reposting for TMSV Propaganda editor User:mudaliar
TMSV Propaganda editors Read this - - First of all, everybody in Tamilnadu knows that TMSV Mudaliar had close association with Brahmins and sent their wives as concubines to Brahmins and many of you are possibly bastard children of Brahmins. This is how you rose to the position you enjoyed during Nawab rule and British rule. Obviously there are no inscriptions to prove this, just as there are no inscriptions to say that there are dalits in Tamilnadu. - - Let us hope you as capable of normal discussion since you can read English. - - It is a simple question, maybe you can understand this or not. If TMSV is such a great feudal lord caste (which apparently you are not), why the hell are you guys deleting references to KondaiKatti Vellala and stealing the proofs of KondaiKatti Vellala. It is such an obvious error. Even a person who is not familiar with India can find the error. - - Next time search for proofs about what TMSV group were doing instead of KondaiKatti Vellala. - - When u are sitting in a glass house, throwing stones on others wont help you in any way. So proving that something is poor, does not make you good. You stand on your own merit. - - This is the modern democratic world. Everybody is defined by who they are and not what their ancestors were doing 1000 years ago. From your point of view, KR Narayanan and Abdul kalam who have risen to be presidents of India are inferior, because of who their fathers were. You get low respect not because you are bastards of Brahmins, but because of the prejudice and bigotry you exhibit. As psychologists say, only the inferior try to prove others are inferior and only a thief thinks everybody steals. - - Now it is very clear why your group was thrown out of Tamilnadu along with Brahmins. - - Wikipedia is about adding relevant facts not for your propaganda nonsense. - - User:Mudaliar and his equivalents do NOT have the maturity to understand this. But if you get mature enough, you will add the section on KondaiKatti Vellala who is definitely not your group. Otherwise continue the reverting and propaganda. It looks like your ego is tied too much to your propaganda. - - Finally, just because you write your propaganda in Wikipedia does not mean anybody is going to believe you in Tamilnadu or anywhere else. Even other Saiva Vellalals dont give any respect to TMSV. What you are doing is so ridiculous but you are definitely not getting the joke. -
Venki 05:01, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
Venki 20:27, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Venki 21:47, 22 March 2007 (UTC) Venki 22:09, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Hello Mudaliar, why dont u just state your opinion on this proof of yours about TMSV? Why are accusing me of everything under the sun, but not stating your opinion. After all, you started slandering Kaikolar and deleting all evidence of KKV/TMV. Why so rabid then and so silent now? Is TMSV fake? Forget about kaikolar and everything else. A simple question a simple straight answer. before you decided to remove all evidence of KKV, you must have a reason for doing that. Who are KKV/TMV? Who are TMSV?
Simple and easy. The fundamental question is why are you so intent on hiding all info about KKV/TMV? Venki 21:19, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I have just provided some real research articles. There're so many out there about the Kaikolars. Are you begging me? Go figure out yourself? Get your ass off the seat and go to a library. Are you intellectually challenged or are you so lazy?
[edit] reason for deletion
reason i undid/deleted was.. felt it was vandal. please resolve issue correctly through procedures. do not vandal or delete needlessly.
- Venki123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) has been vandalising articles non-stop. He also uses socket puppets and swithces to different ips to push his point. This is not acceptable. He neither provides any research articles/ academic sources nor does he stop trashing articles.
[edit] final call for opinion
From Venki 18:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC), I wanted to bring to the attention of all editors about the dispute survey going on, hence I put it on top in the article and talk page. Just a small bit of text. I have not changed the text in any way. Since you are both active in deleting my notice on the top, why dont you post your opinion on the KKV/TMV vs TMSV? I'm not begging anybody, this is the last time I am going to ask your opinion on why you are deleting. If you dont answer this time, then I assume that your intentions are not sincere and are only about hiding true origins of KKV/TMV vs TMSV. Obviously this will be considered by the administrators. If you have no arguments to make other than accusing me and slandering Kaikolar, then everybody who is doing this will be kicked out of Wikipedia for slandering and propaganda and lies. Wikepedia is for honorable editors of scientific articles. Venki 18:28, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Last Kings of Jaffna
There is absolutely no chance the last kings of Jaffna were Kaikolas. Firstly, if the last king was then the entire Arya Chakravarthi clan must be. It can not just be the last king. They have Rameshwaram as their origin and titled themselves as Sethu Kavalar (protectors of Sethu). They are either Kalingha, brahmin or vellala origin as stated in the wiki page itself. Any doubt can be clarified with a qualified Sri Lankan Tamil historian. The kaikolar origin is simply out of the question. None of the decendants I know consider themselves Kaikolars. They go as high Vellalars (previously also Madappalis).
Looking at the Vaipava Malai, Kailaya Malai and the other Royal Texts there is no doubt that Thondaimandalam vellalars have used Mudali as their surname for a long time (even pre 13th century). I can not comment on other clans or about Tamil Nadu. Even Kathirkamam or SInhalese I have no idea.
But there is no need for such ill feelings. I am sure the title was used in many different contexts in the past. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Weldingveerasamy (talk • contribs) 14:56, 28 March 2007 (UTC).
Thank you Weldingveerasamy, you have just clarified the main point of the discussion. The title was used in many different contexts in the past instead of being the sole property of Tondai-Mandala Saiva Vellala. Secondly in the book given as proof for TondaiMandala Saiva Vellala, the name "Saiva" never appears. They are either called as Tondai-Mandala-Vellala or Kondai-Katti-Vellala. Should we not all clarify why the proof about KKV is used by TMSV? Why the section for KKV/TMV is being deleted? Why the section for Kaikolar is 3 times as long as others and has only lies and slanders about them? Finally why the section on Isai-Vellala who used the name Kaikolar is being deleted? So if you are interested please give your opinions. Join us in a discussion free of prejudice and ill-feeling. Venki 00:10, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- Venki123 (talk · contribs) has been constantly vandalising and harassing all the editors (just go through his contributions and you will realise the way he uses digusting words to intimidate and slander anyone who isn't a Kaikolar). Now all of a sudden he has made a complete U-turn, and is attempting to play "nice guy" (thanks to all the authors who have gone to great lengths to describe the Kaikolar caste in vivid detail) because of the research articles and the numerous academic references. His lame attempt at proving that the kaikolars are not devadasis does not hold water against all these academic references which clearly prove otherwise: that the devadasi community in South India was clearly an offshoot of the Kaikolar/ Sengunthar community. The Kaikolars are clearly described as the Kaikolars of the terinja-Kaikolar Padai. Hence there is no room for any ambiguity in this issue. Mudaliar 02:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Kaikolar confusion and clarification
The devadasi system has been abolished for over 60 years. Even 100 years ago, the caste for devadasis was recognized as Isai Vellalar. Please see the websites below.
The origin of Devadasis was from Isai Vellalar as seen in this article [3]. Narthaki is a well known website of the patrons of the dance form Bharathanatyam. The article is by a renowned author.
See this newspaper page from a renowned national newspaper Deccan herald. [4].
All the reference journal articles given by User:mudaliar cannot be referred to any more. So either we should fix their links or remove them.
So even though one would like to think that user:mudaliar made a genuine mistake, I dont think so. His editing started only after the revert wars in the article Mudaliar. Please see the history and time stamp.
He has made these edits because of the prejudice he has against the group kaikolar as can be seen from the edits and reverts he made in the articles kaikolar kaikolan Sengunthar Sengundhar. Please see the history and time stamp.
To study the etymology of the word Kaikolar, kai meant hand and Kol simply meant stick in Tamil.
Defintion from university of chicago website - http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/fabricius/ via link
kol (p. 315) [ kōl ] , s. a rod or stick in general, tati; 2. sceptre, government, cengkol; 3. a pencil used for blackening the eyelids; 4. a measuring rod or pole, alavukol; 5. a staff to lean upon, unyukol; 6. balance scales, tulakkol, Libra of the Zodiac; 7. a horse whip, cavukku; 8. a branch of a tree, kompu; 9. an arrow, ampu; 10. a spear, itti; 11. roundness, tiratci; 12. ploughshare, kozu; 13. lute string, yaznarampu.
In the case of Sengunthar they go by the name Kaikolar (kai=hand kol=spear or sceptre) as they were warriors during ancient Chola period. Similarly it is used by isai (isai=music in tamil) Vellala (meant farmer or producer; in this case producer of music) to mean (kai=hand kol=lute string).
It is customary for a caste to have more than one name in Tamilnadu. Other castes such as Tondai-Mandala-Vellala use the name Kondai-katti-Vellala; Nattu-Kottai-Chetti go by the name Nagarathar. Nadars go by the name Chanar.
User:Mudaliar has maliciously used this two name system to slander the Sengunthar. In modern times i.e, from 1900 onwards Isai-Vellalar have stopped using the name Kaikolar and it is exclusively used by Sengunthar.
So I suggest we remove all references to Kaikolar or Sengunthar in this article. However to prevent any future confusion, it is better we add the caveat that they Isai-Vellalar used Kaikolar as their alternate name along with the proper etymology. So all reference materials prior to the period 1900 such as literature and inscriptions are referring to Isai-Vellalar and not the Sengunthar.
Hope this clarifies the issue for one and all.
Venki 02:03, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- This is absolutely ridiculous. Venki123 (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly vandalising many articles over the past few months. Moreover, this person insists on rejecting valid academic references and multiple research articles at his own discretion. These research articles are here to stay. I suggest you take up this issue with the South Indian Govts and try contacting the various authors and historians.
[edit] Kaikolar Reference articles
I have given two easily accesible references of independent websites. One is Narthaki a website which promotes the dance art of Devadasis as Bharathanatyam. The second is a well known newspaper. If any of the articles cited as reference by User:Mudaliar are accesible, I'll be glad to read them. If they are not accesible then please remove them. Again what matters is the exact proper name of the group that dedicated girls to Devadasi system. The reference articles given by me clearly state they are called Isai Vellalar as indicated by other editors before the vandalizing by User:Mudaliar. I don't think a world renowned newspaper such as Deccan Herald would have a vested interest in hiding the true name of the caste which contributed girls to this devadasi system. See the first few paras of this Talk:Devadasi page and the history of this article Devadasi. Only User:Mudaliar insists on using the Kaikolar name which is no longer being used by the Isai-Vellalar group of people. This is because User:Mudaliar himself belongs to a sub branch of Vellalar similar to Isai-Vellalar and hence is ashamed and has a vested interest in denigrating Sengunthar. Venki 03:39, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- The references that prove the Kaikolars are Devadasis are research articles and academic references. Your links pale in comparison to these. I don't care if you cannot access these links. Go to a library from where you can access them. These links are valid academic references and will not be removed.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mudaliar (talk • contribs) 04:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC).
[edit] TMV/KKV vs. TMSV
Let us not forget in our haste the core problem of this article. Who are the Tondai-mandala-Vellala alias Kondai-katti-Vellala? What is the true origin of Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala and why are they stealing proofs from the TMV group? Was Mudaliar title used by one and all or restricted to a group initially? Venki 03:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
- It is the title of one particular group. The others like for example the Kaikolars who are clearly described as Devadasis started using them only for social upliftment. Rest in peace.Mudaliar 04:12, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Kaikolar and Devadasi confusion and clarification
The devadasi system has been abolished for over 60 years. Even 100 years ago, the caste for devadasis was recognized as Isai Vellalar. Please see the websites below.
The origin of Devadasis was from Isai Vellalar as seen in this article [6]. Narthaki is a well known website of the patrons of the dance form Bharathanatyam. The article is by a renowned author. See this newspaper page from a renowned national newspaper [7].
All the reference journal articles given by User:mudaliar cannot be referred to any more. So either we should fix their links or remove them.
So even though one would like to think that user:mudaliar made a genuine mistake, I dont think so. His editing started only after the revert wars in the article Mudaliar. Please see the history and time stamp.
He has made these edits because of the prejudice he has against the group kaikolar as can be seen from the edits and reverts he made in the articles kaikolar kaikolan Sengunthar Sengundhar. Please see the history and time stamp.
To study the etymology of the word Kaikolar, kai meant hand and Kol simply meant stick in Tamil.
kol (p. 315) [ kol ] , s. a rod or stick in general, tati; 2. sceptre, government, cengkol; 3. a pencil used for blackening the eyelids; 4. a measuring rod or pole, alavukol; 5. a staff to lean upon, unyukol; 6. balance scales, tulakkol, Libra of the Zodiac; 7. a horse whip, cavukku; 8. a branch of a tree, kompu; 9. an arrow, ampu; 1. a spear, itti; 11. roundness, tiratci; 12. ploughshare, kozu; 13. lute string, yaznarampu.
Defintion from university of chicago website - http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/fabricius/ via link [8]
In the case of Sengunthar they go by the name Kaikolar (kai=hand kol=spear or sceptre) as they were warriors during ancient Chola period. Similarly it is used by isai (isai=music in tamil) Vellala (meant farmer or producer; in this case producer of music) to mean (kai=hand kol=lute string).
It is customary for a caste to have more than one name in Tamilnadu. Other castes such as Tondai-Mandala-Vellala use the name Kondai-katti-Vellala; Nattu-Kottai-Chetti go by the name Nagarathar. Nadars go by the name Chanar.
User:Mudaliar has maliciously used this two name system to slander the Sengunthar. In modern times i.e, from 1900 onwards Isai-Vellalar have stopped using the name Kaikolar and it is exclusively used by Sengunthar.
So I suggest we remove all references to Kaikolar or Sengunthar in this article. However to prevent any future confusion, it is better we add the caveat that they Isai-Vellalar used Kaikolar as their alternate name along with the proper etymology. So all reference materials prior to the period 1900 such as literature and inscriptions are referring to Isai-Vellalar and not the Sengunthar.
Hope this clarifies the issue for one and all.
Venki 19:18, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
-
- Venki123 (talk · contribs) is simply ranting and diverting this as a dispute when in fact all the articles are academic research papers and books and talk in detail about the Kaikolars and their identity as Devadasis. There is no question of any ambiguity. The Devadasis originated only from the Kaikolars who are described clearly as the Kaikolar of terinja-Kaikolar padai in Chola empire. These articles are here to stay. Mudaliar 19:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Distinction between Isai-Vellalar and Sengunthar from Government of India gazzette publications
See this link given by the Government of India [9] where Number:75 Isai-Vellalar (spelled as Isai-Vallalar) are also called as Melakkarar (meaning Drummer in Tamil). See on the same page Number:88 Sengunthar are called as Kaikolar (4 variations).
Is the Government of India trying to mislead people? This is as authentic a source that one can get.
Look at Number 67 where there are 3 names for the caste Nadar. Similarly see numbers 95 and 97. Multiple names for the same caste is quite common in Tamilnadu. No caste is trying to hide anything by using multiple names.
See the same for Tamilnadu [10]
See where IsaiVellalar are classifed as Most-backward-Class [11] separately from Kaikolar who are classfied as Backward-Class [12]. These are classifications done by the Government of India for providing reservation in jobs. This is similar to affirmative action in USA.
As you can see Isai-Vellalar is never confused with Kaikolar in any government publication.
So it is quite clear that the modern name of Kaikolar does not refer to Isai-Vellalar. However [User:Mudaliar] is intent on causing confusion to denigrate the modern Kaikolar because of the edit wars going on in the article [Mudaliar].
Now you must also consider how far the Isai-Vellalar themselves have come in Tamilnadu. The current Chief Minister of Tamilnadu Karunanidhi is from Isai-Vellalar. So they have risen to the very top of the power structure in Tamilnadu.
Venki 19:19, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
-
- This is unacceptable. This is blatant vandalism. Venki123 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · block user · block log) insists on deleting heavily referenced sections. These are valid academic references which clearly prove the identity of Kaikolars. The argument is about the origin of the devadasis in south india not what they call themselves now. They are clearly an offshoot of the Kaikolars. These articles will not be removed.Mudaliar 19:40, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Who are the Tondai-mandala-Vellala alias Kondai-katti-Vellala
Let us not forget in our haste the core problem of this article. Who are the Tondai-mandala-Vellala alias Kondai-katti-Vellala? What is the true origin of Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala and why are they stealing proofs from the TMV group?
Venki 19:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] More citations that Kaikolars are Devadasis
1. http://books.google.com/books?q=kaikolar+devadasi 2. http://books.google.com/books?vid=030r8wCzi070dfHyMo&id=TTQKoe4eXzgC&q=kaikolar+devadasi&dq=kaikolar+devadasi&pgis=1
This is the Madras District Gazetteer recognized by the Government of India. I have provided the google search just to show that I'm not manufacturing anything.
Quoted from the book: ..every Kaikolar family was formerly expected to set apart one girl to be dedicated as Devadasi to a temple..
3. Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith
http://books.google.com/books?q=devadasi+dedication+kaikkolar+devadasis
Again, the google link provides a limited preview. This books also talks in great length about the Kaikolar Devadasis and the Brahmin men.
4. Donors, Devotees, and the Daughters of God: Temple Women in Medieval Tamilnadu - Page 158 by Leslie C. Orr - 2000 - 305 pages
Again here is a snapshot of the exact same page which clearly describes the Kaikkolars as devadasis. (zoom in and scroll below and read last paragraph):
Again quoted from book:
Kaikolar girls were dedicated as devadasis, ..and the children of temple women occasionally married Kaikkolars
These are all valid sources and prove once again that the devadasis originated from kaikolars. The kaikolars are clealry described as the weavers and terinja-kaikolar padai. So its not ambiguous.Mudaliar
[edit] Jaffna Vellalars : is it a joke now?
This was in response to the clown who wrote about Jaffna Warlords/Chiefs being non-vellalar castes.
Description of Kailaya Malai leaves no doubt they are vellalars (Plough Flag). named Vellalars and titled so.. thevan, mappanan, mudali, rayan etc., are like local leadership titles of chiefs and rulers.. but denotes Vellalars only in Jaffna .. READ: Kailaya Malai. .. it describes the vellala families only ..
I personally know the Malavarayan family from Puttur, Mappanars, have read the Thaninayaga Mudali Family history.. whether kopay, nallur, manipay or araly.. i know most of the families..
All are vellalars .. Sorry to disappoint anyone .. Seems like this place is becoming a joke now ... Periya Puranam is another example which clearly shows vellala role in Chola empire.. It would be a big comedy except, people are serious when they talk rubbish here ...
Where is the ambiguity as far as Jaffna goes, the plough flag, they call themsevles vellalars, and their description also is of vellalars only.
Jaffna's traditional chieftains are vellalars only as far as any authentic published books go.. anybody saying otherwise is being unacademic or intepreting according to his delusions.
[edit] Sekkilar was born to a Saivite Farmer family in Andhra Pradesh
Sekkilar who was the author of Periya Puranam" which describes the life and work of 63 Nayanman was born at Kunraththur in Thandai Nadu in Andrapradesh in the 11th century. He was a Minister in the royal court of the Chola king.
Though he was born in a Saivite farmer family of Sekkilar tradition, the Chola king Kulothungan made him his Prime Minister on account of his intelligence, honesty and excellence. Besides, he knighted him "Uththama Chola Pallavar Sekkilar".
Please see this article [13] on Fifth World Sekkilar Conference.
http://www.dailynews.lk/2005/09/09/fea03.htm
Farmer must refer to Vellala.
Venki 18:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] First determine various groups using Mudaliar title
Let us determine first what groups exist in Mudaliar.
Thondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellalas are stealing proofs from Kondai-Katti-Vellala.
Severe slandering of Kaikolar is going on even though everyone in India know it is the Isai-Vellalar who contributed to devadasis.
Can somebody give one inscription either in Srilanka or India where Vellalas used Mudali title around 10th century AD? Even Kaikolas and Agambadis have been using Mudali title since 10th century AD. All those proofs are being deleted.
This article is about Mudaliar title and not about who has more time to spend on editing nonsense.
Let us not argue about which famous person belonged to which group without giving solid proofs.
Venki 18:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
-
- A lot of academic citations have been given regarding the identity of Kaikolars and how they went on to become devadasis. I don't see any problem here. Its not nonsense, this is history. If you are a kaikola and cannot deal with it then just stop visitng this page. What about the references, can you not handle? Are you saying the references regarding Kaikolars being devadasis is wrong? I just brought this thing up to show the sanskritization process of Kaikolars. Moreover all references clearly describe the Kaikolars as weavers who were militarized into the terinja-Kaikolar-padai during the Chola empire. So if the the current Sengunthars don't identify with the terinja-kaikolar regiment of Chola empire then whats your problem? These references will not be rejected. Mudaliar 19:40, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Problems in Mudaliar article
Who are the Kondai-Katti Vellala alias Tondai-Mandala-Vellala? Are they the original settlers of Tondai-Nadu? When did they start using the title Mudaliar?
Why are Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala stealing proofs from Tondai-Mandala-Vellala? Are these Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala tamils or telugus posing as Tamils? What is their relationship with other Saiva-Vellalas?
Before we decide who used the title Mudaliar first, we have to identify who were all using the title Mudaliar?
If somebody can answer this it would be great.
Venki 19:55, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
-
- No, go figure yourself.
' 'Please don't confuse with that devars are related to vellala,the history of vellala are as follows they used to wove thier girls to the kings and brahmins as thevraadiyars.still now they will do the job of barathanatiyam dancing so called (thevdiya kacheri)and musicians the list of predominent vellalars doing the same buisness are as follows. here is the list of vellala thevdia families who is under traditional musicians and dancers
vazhuvoor ramaiapillai he is a velllar
valaiyapatti subrmaniam thol thatti he is vellalar
hari dwara mangalam palanivel pillai
madurai mpn ponnuswami pillai
namagiripettai krishnan pillai
karaikuruchi arunachalam pillai
thiruvaduthurai raja rattinam pillai
all these peoples are vellalars in performing their traditional dance and music.these vellalars are equvalent to ettappans of ancient tamilnadu changing their title as thevar,mudaliyars according to the kingdoms which ruled them.'''' the list of communities formed by the vellalas by woving their daughters are as follows. vellala woved their daughters to ramnad agamudayars then formed servaikarars vellala woved their daughters to nagarathar formed nattu kottai chetty's vellala woved their daughters to kannada gowdas formed kongu vellala gownders vellala woved their daughters tu tuluvars of karnataka formed tuluva vellalars from here it is clear that vellala comunity is woving community to any body to attain their position to that respective kings.in cholas history every body knows kodumbalur velir not mudali velir means vellalar he woved his grand daughter to rejaraja chola if vellalas are kings lineage the kodumbalur vellalars grand daughter will be th queen of rajaraja but she was not the queen because she was a woved as thevdia to king rajaraja.
'no body can name a single kaikola doing these thevdia jobs only the vellalars are doing the music and dancing still now every year at thiruvaiyar thiagaraja aradhanai along with brahmins. this is the solid proof that vellalas will do any thing to get upliftment for their community.according to the place they will change their title as devars,mudaliyars,pillai,gownders,chetty's even british and portugeselords etc.'
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- I'm so scared, hehe. Looks like you just found that you are a devadiyar. Kaikola means devadiya. Kaikolars generally go by the name of Devadasis as we see from the proofs above. Some Kaikolar devadiyas after sleeping with the Brahmin come and marry the regular Kaikolar thereby producing a Brahmin-Kaikolar offspring (again proof given) who is aptly referred to as devadiya.
[edit] Kaikola thevadiya koothi, vatha unga amma ve ippa naan othukittu irukken, otha unga amma va pota, vatha un thangachi freeyamey? When kaikola face difficulty then kaikola turns thevadiyaal to get more money!!!Kaikola surname not mudali, kaikolar original last name is thevadiyaar, haaahaaaahaaa. dei pundai ummaley senkunthar is corruption of senkoothiyaar or senkoothi, vatha senkunthar thevadiya ooroda paduthu paduthu vatha koothi nalla red ayirukkum.
dei vellala thevidia payya un amma koodhiya poi kelu iyer wothu porantha thevdiya psanga thanda neenga athanala than neenga vellaiya irrukeenga.iyer madhiri kavichi sapdama unga ponnugala wokkama aduthavanuku kootikodukkum pottai pasanga thanda neega,
Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith
http://books.google.com/books?q=devadasi+dedication+kaikkolar+devadasis
Again, the google link provides a limited preview. This books also talks in great length about how the present day Kaikolars are offsprings of Kaikola Devadasis and the Brahmin men. This is the catalogue used by Kaikolar-Brahmin offsprings in order to move up the society. RIP.
[edit] Lack of Proofs in Mudaliar article
Who are the Kondai-Katti Vellala alias Tondai-Mandala-Vellala? Are they the original settlers of Tondai-Nadu? When did they start using the title Mudaliar?
Why are Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala stealing proofs from Tondai-Mandala-Vellala? Are these Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala tamils or telugus posing as Tamils? What is their relationship with other Saiva-Vellalas?
Before we decide who used the title Mudaliar first, we have to identify who were all using the title Mudaliar?
Since there is no proof that Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala even existed before 1600 AD around the Nayak period , then delete all sections which are saying that Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala are feudal lords and the first to use Mudaliar title.
Venki 21:23, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Citations have been given, refer article.Mudaliar
'hahahahaha vellala thevdia payya enna un ammavakelu entha iyer wothu nee porenthenu neenga vegeteriana irukuradhuku karaname neenga iyer wothu porandhavanga thane,athanala than vellalan thillaivaz anthanar puranam ezhuthinanan,ithil irundhu theriyalaya vellalan wokauttabadunu
[edit] Research articles prove that current Kaikolars are offsprings Kaikolar Devadiyas and Brahmin men, hehe:
Book: Of Property and Propriety: The Role of Gender and Class in Imperialism and Nationalism - Page 178 by Bannerji, Himani, Mojab, Shahrzad, Whitehead, Judith
[edit] http://books.google.com/books?q=devadasi+dedication+kaikkolar+devadasis
This books also talks in great length about how the present day Kaikolars are offsprings of Kaikola Devadasis and the Brahmin men.This is the catalogue used by Kaikolar-Brahmin offsprings in order to move up the society. RIP.
[edit] Wrong Proofs and groups given
All proofs are talking about the Kondai-Katti Vellala and not Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala . So we should add a section for Kondai-Katti Vellala alias Tondai-Mandala-Vellala. Proofs for each group should be credited to the proper group not to a group with similar name.
Nowhere is it given that Kondai-Katti Vellala were the only group to be given the Mudali title.
Venki 21:37, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Accurate academic references have been given. Venki123 (talk · contribs) is attempting to create an illusion of ambiguity with no valid reason.Mudaliar 21:45, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Copy and paste exact proof about Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala in the talk page and let everyone see it
If accurate academic references have been given by Mudaliar (talk · contribs) , then after reading through the book many times, I cannot even see the Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala being mentioned even once in the book. Don't lie brazenly. If you are not lying, then copy and paste the exact text including the page numbers in the book.
Venki 22:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- Go look in the reference yourself. Thats what the links are for. Venki123 (talk · contribs) is lying profusely and once again attempting to create an illusion of ambiguity by using varying tones of speech.
[edit] Copy and pasting of proofs about Devadasis is possible but not proofs about Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala - Liar Liar Pants on Fire
If you can copy and paste all the references about Devadasis why not about Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala? You are only delaying the inevitable that you don't have any proofs.
Venki 22:12, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
- looks like somebody's crying, hehe.Mudaliar 22:17, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Still No proofs about Tondai-Mandala-Saiva-Vellala
Simple truth - No proofs no edits - Liar Liar Pants on Fire.
Venki 22:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Serious advice
Our common goal here is to write a collaborative encyclopedia. Editors who get caught up in disputes sometimes lose sight of that goal - things seem to morph into a contest of personalities. I'm dropping by to remind the editors of this page that it's your task to refocus. You've got a mediation request now, which may very well be your last chance to solve your own problem before it goes into arbitration.
As a sysop who specializes in complex investigations and dispute resolution I've been through arbitration many times. In the best possible scenario it's about as much fun as six weeks of root canal surgery. A quick browse of this dispute is enough to tell me several accounts would quite possibly get topic banned (if not worse).
Wikipedia is not a circus or a schoolyard playground. Please refactor inappropriate comments, take mediation seriously, and cite reliable sources. Editors who cannot exercise self-restraint eventually get external restraints imposed upon them. Eventually is pretty close to happening. DurovaCharge! 06:34, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] No Proofs are coming forth about Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala
As no Proofs are coming forth about Tondai-mandala-Saiva-Vellala, see you all in arbitration. Venki 04:14, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
see you in arbitration.Mudaliar 14:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Dont vandalise
I am new here so by reverts may be wrong.. but the bottom line is lets wait for arbitration .. not need to change stuff until then. Everything I have put is with referenced stuff. Weldingveerasamy 08:46, 7 April 2007 (UTC)weldingveerasamy
