Talk:Muamar family detention incident

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Contents

[edit] names?

The BBC report writes Mustafa Muamar's name as Mustafa Abu Muamar. However, see Arabic_name#Kunya. There's a fair chance that this is a BBC cultural error, since this would seem to be Mustafa-as-father-of-Muamar, whereas the father's name is several times reported as Ali Muamar.

This (possible) error might also explain why some people (like chomsky!) said that a doctor and his son were detained, except that in this case it would be Mustafa and his son Osama.

If anyone can find more info, please update/correct.

Boud 14:32, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Where are the Muamar brothers detained?

AdamRetchless wrote:

12:03, 3 August 2006 AdamRetchless (Talk | contribs) (NPOV--"detain" implies that it is temporary and transparent, whereas Shalit has disappeared

Of course we agree to use whatever is the most neutral word among "detain", "capture", "kidnap", etc. The NPOV question is to decide which word is most NPOV. IMHO "detain" is probably the most neutral, though i'm not entirely sure. To the extent that Israel is a legally recognised state while Palestine is in a limbo between an occupied territory and a state, i guess we could say that Israel soldiers detain and Palestine soldiers capture. On the other hand, this could be interpreted as wikipedia taking a stance against the existence of Palestine, which de facto does exist as some sort of a state.

In any case, the title of this article has the word "detention", and since you have no problem with this, you presumably have information on where the Muamar brothers are being detained. As far as google is concerned, Osama Muamar and Mustafa Muamar seem to have disappeared just as thoroughly as Shalit.

However, if you do have information (preferably with an external source - otherwise you could publish it as original reporting on wikinews and then reference it here), then please provide that info! Where are Osama and Mustafa Muamar being detained? Have charges been laid against them in a court of law? What are the charges? Do they have access to a lawyer, a doctor and their families?

Boud 14:37, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

I think "held" is the most neutral as it doesn't necessarily imply legitimate authority or criminality (which is of course the controversy here). "Captured" is probably the most neutral word to describe the initial act, but it also is problamatic as we usually expect "arrest" and "detain" in the context of legitimate exercises of authority; some might say that not using those words implies the act wasn't legitimate.
Some editors say Chomsky and other Westerns consider this event significant, but is there a similar level of awareness in the Arab/muslim world? I think that's a significant question. --Apantomimehorse 07:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] minor vandalism record

(there is probably a better way to do this than a full URL...)

Boud 19:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

A citation seems needed for the claim that the two were known to locals as members of Hamas; BBC only claims their father to be a member... Thomas

[edit] Chomsky/Jonathan Cook POV

Just for "safe-keeping" i'm copying this bit here:

This is claimed by Noam Chomsky[1] and Jonathan Cook[2] to be the first incident in the 2006 Israel-Gaza conflict and the following 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict.
  1. ^ Chomsky, Noam. "Confrontation with Hamas and Hezbollah", ZNet, July 29, 2006. Retrieved on 2006-08-01. 

Someone had reworded this to something like "This was the first incident in the ..." probably (naively) hoping to make it a stronger statement, and then later someone else removed the new version which clearly is not a widely consensed on point of view (it might be correct, but it's not widely consensed on as correct) and so had become POV. Please keep the new version NPOV, even if you believe Chomsky and Cook are correct, we cannot state their opinion as fact unless it becomes so widely accepted as fact that noone "notable" questions it (e.g. like the law of gravity). See WP:NPOV for details. Boud 23:07, 11 April 2007 (UTC)