Talk:MS Estonia

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[edit] Conspiracy Theory

Conspiracy Theory, most interesting: http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=63541 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.217.40.190 (talk • contribs) 08:21, 1 May 2005

[edit] Flaws in emergency response

Would it be wrong if I just point out that this section looks a little weak.

"Searched liferafts had to be marked so time wasn't wasted by searching the same raft multiple times. In later phases of the rescue operation, this was done by cutting the roofs of the rafts."

Is the above a flaw?

"At least two should be brought along as the rescue work was exhausting"

The above sounds somewhat opinionated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Minshullj (talk • contribs) 00:39, 28 September 2005

I've deleted the part about listing preventing the lifeboats from being launched from this section. Clearly this is important (and is mentioned in the previous section), but it is not a flaw in the response. This whole section looks a bit weak to me too...--Sheep2000 20:53, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It's easy to say that at least two rescue men per helicopter would have been needed, but under the circumstances that was probably not possible. The rescue helicopters were flown in from all over Finland and Sweden (some arriving from as far as Finnish Lapland, nearly a 1000 kilometers away) as fast as possible, and getting extra personnel onboard would have been extremely difficult. Plus there are only a small number of people with proper training for that kind of mission. Two rescue men would have certainly been preferrable, but having only one per helicopter was hardly a "flaw" but simply something dictated by nescessity.
As for the lifeboats, if I remember correctly the problem was not (only) that they couldn't be lowered, but they also simply weren't seaworthy enough. The Estonias lifeboard were small, uncovered boats that capsized easily, very different from lifeboats installed in newer passenger ships (I have a book on the disaster stashed away somewhere, but I don't seem to be able to find it right now. If I remember correctly it claimed the liferafts were actually more seaworthy and offered better protection than the lifeboats). - Kjet 07:51, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Having spent quite some time on this, every line of the previous article was correct even if some of the pilot's observations could be confused with the SOLAS response. I felt that the effect on marine safety was so important that the section needed expanding. I changed the title to avoid appearing to cast inappropriate blame on the rescuers. I'd welcome any comments/help on the references. I'm aware that the liferaft reference is to a private firm but it shows the concerns that I know the British MAIB have about the training accidents. JRPG 18:25, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

New topic: I changed the second sentence to read: The ship's sinking, on September 28, 1994, in the Baltic Sea, claiming 852 lives was one of the worst maritime disasters in modern history.


The reason for the existence of the entry--any entry--should be clear in the lede graf. There are lots of ferries in the Baltic, not all of them have an encyclopedia entry. This one does because it (a) sank (b) claiming 852 lives, and (c) was one of the worst maritime disasters in modern history. This last bit that I added could be made even more specific, for example one of the worst since a particular date, or worst since a particular other disaster or worst maritime disaster in peacetime since a particular date or disaster.

My point is that a reader goes to an encyclopedia entry to answer the general question, What is the M/S Estonia? What was that all about? The very first graf should answer his question, at least in general terms. Example: Who was Stalin? One sentence answer: A brutal Soviet Russian dictator who solidified and expanded the Communist regime while killing millions of his own countrymen and causing inestimable misery. RUReady2Testify 18:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Current even

I am adding up the stuff on the ongoing re-investigations by the Estonian prosecuter-general and in parallel by the Estonian Parliament as it comes.

With regard to the fact that Estonian MEP Evelyn Sepp declared that re-investigation of the wreckage - meaning lifting Estonia Agreement and new divings (and raising the wreckage if necessary) is "imminent", as well as the fact that she declared possible connection between (criminal - Bete 10:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)) shipments by the Swedish intelligency and the disaster, this article may need to be designated as current event. I leave it to those more familiar than me with the rules to decide. Bete 10:23, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additional material

At the risk of sounding far more provocative than I want to be, I believe that for once the conspiracy theorists have a point. I intend to add a line saying that unlike Estonia, both Princess Victoria and Herald of Free Enterprise capsised before sinking and that a number of marine experts (and MEP Lars Ångström) have said that only a hole in the hull below the waterline would have caused Estonia's vertical sinking. That does seem to make sense. The cause of the hole is of course another matter entirely.

Re flaws in emergency response, having read the UK MAIB report on lifeboats,

http://www.ukpandi.com/UkPandi/resource.nsf/Files/lifeboat_safety/$FILE/lifeboat_safety.pdf

and many of MAIB's other excellent free reports, I am aware that lifeboats drills cause a disproportionate number of fatal accidents even in port. For that reason, the Captain of a ferry in the Irish sea was justified when he decided not to lower lifeboats in a gale to rescue a passenger overboard.

http://www.maib.gov.uk/cms_resources/koningin-beatrix.pdf


Is there a source for the 15 metre wave heights stated? I have seen 4 metres. Have any other Swedish wrecks been encased in concrete or is this a change of policy?

Feel free to contact me.

JRPG 20:51, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

Um... at least according to all reports I have read, the Estonia did capsize before sinking. -- Kjet 15:00, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi Kjet. At least you read it! I think the point the structural experts make is that water on the car deck through the bow doors would make the ferry capsize 180 degrees immediateley c.f. Herald Of Free Enterprise, though that landed on a sand bank. Estonia listed increasingly but slowly to starboard and finally went over 90 degrees before sinking. http://heiwaco.tripod.com/epunkt11.htm I don't intend to add any conspiracy theory, I just want to avoid implying unnecessarily that Herald Of Free Enterprise events were very similar.

Re: the rescue, I've read dozens of British Marine Accident Investigation Branch reports and don't think any search and rescue would have avoided very heavy casualties in the condition. Lifeboats on davits rarely seem useable once there is a list. The most effective method on fishing boats (most of the cases they investigate are fishing boats) seems liferafts which inflate automatically once the ship has sunk ..but these require survival suits and training, not practical for the passengers.

JRPG 23:03, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I very much respect pointing out the differentiation between Estonia and the Herald of Free Enterprise in the article, so I'm not disagreeing at all with this comment, just making a few pointers. The big difference between Estonia and the Herald was that the Herald didn't have a watertight ramp inside the bow gate. So in that one, when the gate failed the cardeck flooded immidiately. The Estonia had a watertight ramp which was only partially open during the time of the sinking (that is my impression anyway), which resulted in the cardeck not flooding outright but slowly fillng with water, which explains the gradual listing. I guess the wording on the article should be changed from "When the visor broke off the ship, it brought down the ramp" as it didn't really bring down the ramp, only damage it enough for water to start entering the cardeck slowly but surely.
I also definately agree about the points about the rescue. Plus I have to add that the Estonia's lifeboats were an outdated type, uncovered and quite small, which made them practically useless in such heavy seas.
-- Kjet 23:27, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reliable source for the water temperature? I had a Royal Navy helicopter survival course which suggested that September is one of the warmest months. 1994 was also one of the hottest years so the sea should have been much warmer. Unless there are strong objections, I intend to replace the 8 degrees with a reference http://www.iopan.gda.pl/oceanologia/48Ssiege.pdf

In figure 1, the wreck is at around position 17. From fig 5 the mean temperature at that point for the whole of 1994 was over 8. From figure 7, the August 1994 temperature for that position was around 19 degrees. It seems therefore reasonable to say that the temperature a month later was at least 13 degrees. Still going to cause death from hypothermia but more slowly than 8 degrees.

Re the "flawed response", I think the problem is the section title, not the content. The reality is that ships couldn't help. In the UK, RAF and Navy helicopters are used to rescue civilians, but only if available and most of those rescued are sea farers who have had have survival training. I remember one occasion when their engines were removed for spares. I understand the RAF send a winchman down but the Navy expect people to be able to attach the rope themselves! Fishing boat sinkings are often even more sudden and alarm is given by the EPIRB but this didn't happen here.

Estonia is of course an extremely sensitive issue but does anyone have any objections to renaming this, "practical limitations of the rescue", and including some of Kjet's comments?

JRPG 16:30, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Black out?

According to the article, "Due to black-out she could not give her position which delayed the rescue operation somewhat". What is this black-out referrred to? Evil Monkey - Hello 01:25, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Loss of power. -- Kjet 11:26, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
That would make sense. I was interpreting black-out as being Blackout (wartime). Evil Monkey - Hello 23:13, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Apparently "blackout" is a term commonly used for loss of power in the maritime profession. It was used in the radio communication from the Estonia to Silja Europa (in English, even though most of the communication was in Finnish), which is probably where it found it's way into the article. -- Kjet 09:23, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Citation box

We have acquired a somewhat unwelcome box relating to citations. I've reworded a section so that only one reference is needed to the New Statesman article on British Intelligence. I've also shortened the item about the murder as there are no English references to it -and it's not what the ship is noted for. Do we really need so many red links to fairly minor items? I don't see them justifying their own entry. I'm happy to remove them if they're not needed. At that point are we allowed to remove the box? JRPG 18:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] New research '08

There's been conducted some computer simulations by Hamburg University, that sheds new light on the disaster. I'm not a wikipedia writer, but i thought I'd put it here, if someone wants to update the article and/or further reference. http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/0,1518,527875,00.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.150.83.165 (talk) 19:32, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the link and it will be interesting to see what the professionals say in March. I do have doubts however if this will vindicate the official report whose critics include competent experts. Re the inadequacy of evacuation from ferries in a storm, I think this is universally agreed and regulations were changed -but there isn't a solution! Lifeboats are unlaunchable in rough weather, liferafts are dangerous for the crew and helicopters are best when people are already in the water. Possibly the best suggestion is a 'citadel' on board but this can only be done for new ships, and at considerable cost. JRPG (talk) 12:08, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

This page, as it is now, is subordinated to M (because of the backslash). I'll move the page to fix this problem; I just wanted to explain the move for anyone concerned. Parsecboy (talk) 17:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

I see that there's a redirect at MS Estonia; I'll have to have an admin do this one. Parsecboy (talk) 17:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Subpages are not allowed in the article namespace, so this effort was futile. See also Wikipedia:Subpages. –Finlux (talk) 01:10, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Free surface effect

There is no mention in this article of the Free surface effect that would have effected the ships stability and helped to cause it to sink. It is analogous to trying to carry a frying pan full of water. The instability would have been created once water flowed into the vehicle bay. --Zven (talk) 00:50, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

You're right! This is the main problem with water on the car deck of these ships. Whilst I'm deeply skeptical about the official version, I agree a word about the mechanism would be useful and I'll add it -unless you have already done so. JRPG (talk) 22:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Looks good what yourve added to the article, incidentally it was also factor in the sinking of the Wahine disaster where hurricane force winds pushed the ship onto a reef first, apparently it forced a re-design of the height of deck vent height in future vessels. I was talking to a retired ship captain who told me that they use the free surface effect to their advantage by manipulating the ballast to make ships slightly less stable which can improve the ride depending on the conditions. He also sailed for 3 years with Captain Hector Gordon Robertson after the Wahine disaster. --Zven (talk) 07:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC)