Talk:Mr. B Natural

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Contents 1 Mr. B, what would you know about dignity? 2 F.I.L.M. 3 Miami, Ohio 4 Peter Pan comparison 5 Fair use rationale for Image:PeterPan1.jpg

[edit] Mr. B, what would you know about dignity?

Anyone who's ever played in a school band can attest to the fact that it's robotic and boring. It's not even as satisfying as just practicing by yourself. And I just have to say it; Neil Young said that one of the original reasons he pursued a music career was that in high school he was very shy and did not feel he was attractive to women. He got his first band (The Jades) together and played for all the dances he felt he couldn't attend otherwise. It didn't change who he was in everyday life. This film has a really laughable attitude toward the power of music to "bring kids out of themselves". --Bluejay Young 08:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] F.I.L.M.

The only known film print is held by F.I.L.M. Archives in New York, and it's expensive to get stills or footage out of them.

Happily, Mr. B Natural is out on DVD in both MST3K and original forms. Plus, it's all over YouTube.

But I thought I'd share this rundown of available shots from F.I.L.M., from behind their subscription wall:

Ref INDUSTRIAL/EDUCATIONAL
Reel 1133B
TimeCode See Shot

Shot Musical notes on stage, Pixie character speaks in front of huge musical notes, Pixie dances in front of huge musical notes, Kids in front of school lockers, Kids dance in front of lockers, Pixie comes out of locker, Mom on phone at home, Kid comes in, goes upstairs, Pixie appears in boy's room, CU boy and Pixie, Instrument appears in Pixie's hands, Pixie plays trumpet, clarinet, trombone, dances in front of notes, Pixie jumps out window, Boy with music teacher in classroom, Boy sits down with music teacher, Pixie talks to boy during audition, Pixie appears with teacher and boy, Teacher checks out kid's face with Pixie behind, Pixie on boy's bed, Boy talks to Dad and Mom with Pixie in foreground, CU Dad, CU Mom, Mom, Dad, and boy talk, Music store with Mom, Dad, Boy and salesman, Dealer talks Dad into buying trumpet, Pixie on piano (Conn signage in background), Musical instrument factory, Woman cleans horns, Man shapes metal, Man loads horn into compressor, Glamour shots of saxophones, Man stands with TV test monitor in background, Saxophone in recording studio, Teacher shows boy trumpet, Boy practices alone with pixie, Boy in band at recital, Boy plays at "High School 37 Dance," music class plays, Marching band

-- Yamara 00:05, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Miami, Ohio

The credits in the film read:

MIAMI SENIOR HIGH SCHOOL
Otto Krauschaar - Conductor [[Image:MiamiCountyOhioSeal.png|thumb|right|Seal of Miami County, Ohio]]

WAUKEGAN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL
Bernard Steiner - Conductor

There were formerly two Miami, Ohios... if you trust Wikipedia.

There are currently three Miami High Schools in Ohio, since "Miami" is a the name of a county and five townships in that state. So I don't think we can dismiss the IMDb on the basis of there being no town called Miami in Ohio.

Thus, I'm taking this statement out: (IMDB incorrectly attributes this to the non-existent town of "Miami, Ohio".)

--Any help in finding where Otto Krauschaar's band was located in 1956, would be appreciated. -- Yamara 14:45, 5 June 2007 (UTC) --couple tweaks up to here -- Yamara 15:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Peter Pan comparison

I have again removed the comparison of Mr. B Natural to Peter Pan because it is an original comparison made by the editors, not a summary of a comparison made by a reliable secondary or tertiary source. Writing your own analysis of how they compare and/or constrast is original research, which is not allowed. The correct way to do this is to find one or more sources for comparison, summarize them, and cite them. Wikipedia articles should not contain our opinions, only our prose synthesizing excepts from others' published works. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Cute, but the lead character was described being symptomatic of "Mary Martin syndrome" by Kevin J. Murphy on page 57 of the Mystery Science Theater 3000 Amazing Colossal Episode Guide. Failure to provide context for casting females in male roles makes this out to be a completely unprecedented freakish happenstance, rather than an inept, uh, short "film". It's hardly one person's "opinion" to mention, within an article, that Mary Martin was a female cast in the role of a spritely man, if it provides context to another article. While I agree that an entire section borders on OR, I think it would have been better had you re-written the section, rather than removing it entirely. Reverted. --Action Jackson IV 18:34, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Action. I was unaware of the Murphy quote in print (itself a play on Peter Pan syndrome). In consideration of Jeff's points, the comparison to Peter Pan was made once directly during the spoof ("I want to wear a note-spangled jacket and a Peter Pan hat, Mom, Dad!") and the cross-gendered casting of Peter Pan, with Mary Martin being named, makes up a part of Crow's "argument" in his side of the "debate" over Mr. B that accompanied the original broadcast. Most of the examples of the MSTied Mr. B Natural on YouTube delete this debate (though the bots are heard to begin arguing on their way out of the theatre). The transcript listed under "External links" (Mr. B Natural: Man or Woman?) is not precise, but it is close enough to show that the Peter Pan reference, while clearly understood, was still cause for confusion when extended to a character who is NOT Peter Pan.

I think where my deleted contribution "Resemblance to Peter Pan" most closely bordered on OR, was in trying to provide the context required to understand the creators' intent in the casting. Mary Martin was not simply the latest Peter Pan, she was the children's theatrical sensation of the mid-1950s, and recognizable when emulated. But importantly, J.M. Barrie initially had Peter Pan portrayed by an adult woman, as indicated in the Wikipedia article, as an extension of a tradition in pantomime, until it became a theatrical tradition in its own right. Mr. B Natural's tropes come from one source–the performance history of Peter Pan–and I believe that that is a statement of fact, neither an opinion, nor original research.

For comparison, consider my contribution pointing out the fact that the name "B Natural" is a pun on the musical notation. Nowhere in the film, the spoof, or in secondary literature is this pointed out as being a pun (unless it's hiding in the Baton article, which I do not have access to). Its being a pun is simply an obvious statement of fact, not an opinion, and done for the sake of clarity to those who were unfamiliar with musical notation– unlike the original target audience of the sponsored film, high school band students, who were expected to "get it". Likewise, choosing a female actor for a male pixie requires the contemporary context of Peter Pan in order to be understood by its target audience.

I'm going to be busy with RL for awhile, but I hope to revisit this in the article in a few days. I had been planning an expansion of the description the spoof's debate scene, and since Peter Pan and Mary Martin are directly discussed therein, this might be the place to elaborate on it in the article. Cheers. -- Yamara 20:39, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:PeterPan1.jpg

Image:PeterPan1.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC)