Talk:Mount Eliza, Western Australia

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[edit] What name for Mt Eliza?

  • Kaarta gar-up - source please
Ok I'll leave your name in place but if you know of any other sources that might have it can you check. Gnangarra 13:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I've just done a quick search on AlltheWeb for both terms. The "Botanic Gardens and Parks Authority" uses Kaarta gar-up without explanation, whereas the usage of Mooro Katta by the 175th Anniversary website would seem to mean "Hill of the Mooro group of the Whadjuk people" rather than "all sit down place - friendly ground". I would suggest some enquiry be made of the Aboriginal Studies School in Curtin University. At the moment I think the BGPA probably has better information, but... It may be best to leave the Kaarta gar-up name unsubstantiated until we get this cleared up. Gordon | Talk, 29 September 2006 @13:43 UTC
Ummmmm... In the Kings Park History section, we seem to have the Yellagonga clan down around Perth, with no mention of the Mooro (see under Whadjuk) clan... Gordon | Talk, 30 September 2006 @01:58 UTC
OK, I see what I missed. BUT, Yellagonga was of the Mooro group of Whadjuk -- so why the discrepancy between the Whadjuk and King's Park articles? (Which has been my point so far...) Gordon | Talk, 30 September 2006 @11:47 UTC
This is getting worse from the Whadjuk article or by Mount Eliza (Noongar = Goonininup). that makes three different names. Gnangarra 00:12, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

<-- I've ask a major editor of whadjuk to join us, as that article doesnt have any sources if he has a source that we can use thats more acceptable than the two current ones. Gnangarra 00:40, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. We need some expertise! Just a thought, I'm drawing a long linguistic bow here, is there any way "kaarta" could equate with "katta" (possibly a dialect difference)? We know "-up" means "place", so that leaves "gar"... Gordon | Talk, 2 October 2006 @02:05 UTC

[edit] Confusion over Nyungar names

The following has been copied verbatim from Gnangarra's talk page

Hi Gnangara. You wrote "Hi John, I noticed you spent a lot of time with this article. We've run into a problem with the Mount Eliza, Western Australia and the Kings Park, Western Australia articles both of these have differing Names to each other ad to the Whadjuk article. Would know of a source that we can quote to clear this up as our sources all differ."

My sources are from the publication of Daisy Bates' maerials organised through Hesperion Press, and through long discussions with Tim McCabe, who speaks the Nyungar language fluently (Albeit with a Njakinjaki dialect). Mooro Kata means the hill of Mooro which was the name given to the site of the area on which government house now stands. Kaarta, is suspect also means Hill, (English orthographies for Nyungar differ wdely) not as the translation suggests about a good meeting place. Aboriginal names of Mount Eliza differ somewhat from European naming usage. Europeans have one name for things, that are fixed in maps. Aboriginal naming conventions were much more flexible. Thus for instance the western most portion of the rise of Mount Eliza, known by the name Karakatta (Spider Hill) - on which the HHouse of Parliament now stands was also caled Mooro Katta as well. Mount Eliza would have been known as Katta (simply Hill), Garrup, may come from the Nyungar Karl arp (The place of the hearth (Karl = Fire, hearth, arp/up = place), so a meeting place on the hill would ave been Katta-Karl-up. Europeans, not speaking the language, and as the Aboriginal K and G was the same phoneme, simply transcribed what they thought they heard, not speaking the language fluently. Hope this helps John D. Croft 07:48, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Going on John's notes above, which appear to support my incoherent ramblings in our discussion in Talk:Mount_Eliza,_Western_Australia, I see no reason why we couldn't document two Noongar names, using John's work here as the basis? You will recall I couldn't work out "gar", but John makes it clear that it may well equate with "karl", thus it may well be that Mooro Katta and Kaarta gar-up are the same thing and equally valid. Alas, Goonininup is still \\\ STOP PRESS! \\\ AlltheWeb reveals that Goonininup is the Noongar name for the site of the Old Swan Brewery! And that makes sense, 'cos it's a different place! So we can strike that one from Mt Eliza. Gordon | Talk, 15:33, 11 November 2006 (UTC)