Talk:Motorcycle club

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Motorcycle club was a good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. Reviewed version: November 13, 2007

Motorcycle club has had a peer review by Wikipedia editors which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article.

Motorcycle club is within the scope of the Motorcycling WikiProject, which aims to improve Wikipedia's coverage of motorcycles and motorcycling. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Motorcycle club article.
Please sign and date your posts by typing four tildes (~~~~). Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Ask questions, get answers. This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject.	Be polite Assume good faith No personal attacks Be welcoming	Article policies No original research Neutral point of view Verifiability

The following user(s) are actively involved with this article and may be able to help with questions about verification and sources: Mmoyer (talk · contribs)•Pickle UK (talk · contribs)•Garth of the Forest (talk · contribs) This in no way implies article ownership; all editors are encouraged to contribute.

To-do list for Motorcycle club:

edit · history · watch · refresh

We just failed a Good Article nomination, so more needs to be done before we can renominate. Here are some tasks you can do: Wikify wikilink all complete dates References add more references change all references to {{cite web}} or {{cite news}} find additional refs to support conclusion supported by reference 1 reference 4 is dead (replace) reference 10 is dead (replace) Expand expand body to support all points made in lead specifically: differences between MC and riding club MC is pinnacle of MC counterculture Expand History section Cleanup One sentence paragraphs in the bottom of "membership" needs to be integrated

Archives

Archive 1: coverage up to 23 August, 2007

Contents 1 Article balance and accuracy of recent references 2 Ninety-nine percenters 3 Hells Angels Membership 4 GA failed 5 Too US centered 6 This is unhelpful 7 "Notable" MCs

[edit] Article balance and accuracy of recent references

I am again concerned that this article is losing its NPOV. The reference from the Connecticut Gang Investigators Assn is questionable, for instance. This association still believes there was an actual riot at Hollister, and their website is full of rumor, innuendo, and unsubstantiated "facts".

Regarding the number of dead from the Quebec Biker War, the article states "which has involved more than 150 murders[22] (plus a young bystander accidently killed by an exploding car bomb), 84 bombings, and 130 cases of arson." Unless these are all solved crimes in which a biker was convicted for each, it is purely speculation on the part of the police that bikers were involved. The numbers included, therefore, are inflammatory and do not reflect actual fact.

This leads to my main point: Motorcycle clubs and their members, simply by virtue of being non-mainstream and having so many bad stereotypes, are easy targets for blame for every crime committed within 20 miles of their clubhouse. Just because the newspaper, police, FBI, CISC, DEA, or Interpol says they are responsible for such and so does not mean they actually are. This balance of alleged actions vs. facts proven in a court of law must be carefully stated and conveyed in this article for it to remain NPOV. Furthermore, even listing every alleged criminal act of a biker, even if stated as such, begins to upset the balance.

Remember, there are a great many motorcycle clubs (most of which are non-notable for purposes of Wikipedia), whose members, although not mainstream people, are law abiding citizens with regular jobs and families who would no more commit a crime than you or I. This article must maintain that perspective and balance.

I would much rather see this article expand on the rich traditions and culture of motorcycle clubs than watch it devolve into a detailed list of crimes allegedly committed by bikers.

I will attempt to give the article a good workover in the next week or so. Mmoyer 18:16, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

While I think I understand where you (user mmoyer) are coming from (i.e. an assumption of guilty by association should not normally be considered valid evidence to be used in convicting someone for an alleged crime, unless RICO or similar legislation can be applied), for balance we do also need to include information about the darker side of biker culture, for example, the drug dealing, extortion, and other organized criminal activities common to the outlaw biker world, as long as the information is reliably sourced. On this note I would be interested in opening a discussion (and seeing some source citations) for the (what I consider to be dubious) distinction being made in this article between a "motorcycle club" (MC) and a "motorcycle riding club". I know that user mmoyer has often been quick to correct any use on Wikipedia of the phrase "outlaw motorcycle gang" outside the context of the official post-1980 law enforcement definition (essentially thereby limiting the meaning to be only "The Big Four" and, perhaps, in some states and provinces, certain generally acknowledged rival and puppet clubs), when in fact it is actually quite common usage to refer to any "club" that wears a three piece patch and/or MC patch and/or one-percenter patch, or for that matter any group of people as a "gang" - i.e. chain gang, my gang, the old gang. The exception to be taken I suppose might be with the use of the word "outlaw" not the word "gang". Technically, unless the organization has been officially designated to be a criminal organization then the entire membership are not outlaws; only members with outstanding warrants and who are evading law enforcement should technically be considered outlaws. Some reasonable give and take with the word usage in the interest of maintaining a balanced POV is required here I think. Garth of the Forest 05:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm currently reading a book authored by anthropologist Daniel R. Wolf (he undertook a very detailed study of the Rebels MC in Alberta, riding with them as a full patch member for over three years), who, when referring to the North American experience, defines an outlaw motorcycle club as "technically...[any] club that is not registered with the American Motorcycle Association (AMA) or the Canadian Motorcycle Association (CMA)." He goes on to say "AMA or CMA registration further aligns the club with the legal and judicial elements of the host society; some clubs will go one step further and incorporate themselves as 'registered societies' with the local state or provincial authorities." So, I would certainly agree that a distinction does need to be made between 'outlaw motorcycle clubs' as per this technical definition, and those motorcycle clubs who are officially listed by law enforcement agencies as organized crime groups. The label typically used in this latter case is OMG (Outlaw Motorcycle Gang). So in that sense I understand the sensitivity with the use of the word "gang" because when combined with the words "outlaw" and "motorcycle" it takes on a different meaning than "outlaw motorcycle club". Garth of the Forest (talk) 06:47, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

As to Hollister, if it was not a riot (with which I would concur) then what word or phrase is more acceptable? Incident as currently used in references to the article about Hollister seems too much of a euphemism to me. From all the accounts I have read, it must have been a very, very long weekend full of incidents from a local law enforcement point of view, not a single incident. Hollister, while now fodder for Hollywood legend, was to me a perfect example of what can happen when the "one percent" are allowed to get totally out of control and overshadow the activities of the "ninety-nine" and the general civilian population. Garth of the Forest 05:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've just been browsing through the archives for this article and see that I may be needlessly and naively re-opening an old can of worms. At first pass it looks like mmoyer has done an admirable job of synthesizing information from older (now deleted) articles such as motorcycle gangs and outlaw motorcycle club, and, overall, I like the way this article is laid out. We just need to find a way to better incorporate some of the great ideas that user Pickle UK had indicated in the archives and that is to also better document, perhaps by using the artificial distinction of creating the article entitled motorcycle riding clubs to better include, for lack of a better way to describe it, the noteable clubs who do not conform to the "American style" noted here - aka organized hooliganism and/or the imitation/admiration thereof. Garth of the Forest 06:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Most American-style MCs do not engage in organized hooliganism or imitate/admire it. The media has created this perception. Nor was Hollister a riot. Yellow journalism and sensationalism have painted it as such, but the simple truth is that too many people showed up for an event and the town was not equipped to feed nor house them. No actual riot took place. It is exactly these perceptions that, through the use of proper references and careful writing, we are trying to ensure do not end up in this article. Garth, may I politely inquire about the nature of your first hand experiences with MCs? Mmoyer (talk) 21:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that riot is not the best term to use to describe what happened at Hollister on that July weekend oh so long ago. However, incident seemed like just too much of a euphemism to me. From a local law enforcement perspective, it must have seemed like an awfully long 36 hours (give or take) containing many incidents. General lawlessness is perhaps a more accurate description to describe that weekend. True, yellow journalists added fuel to the fire (i.e. the now infamous staged photo); however the fire already existed all on its own and it is certainly downplaying the events of July 4-6, 1947 in Hollister to characterize them as simply resulting from a shortage of food and accommodation. I don't think the seven local law enforcement officers called in an auxiliary force of 32 more to help set up tents and make chili. They were there to restore law and order, and THAT, my friend, is the "simple truth". I applaud your efforts to improve the quality of these articles and encourage us all to help this article (and related articles) maintain a NPOV with careful wording and appropriate references, but I honestly don't understand the need to downplay Hollister. I think part of the issue I was having with this article was the leading disambiguation link, which I see someone just removed with the most recent edit. We are getting there; let's work together to provide the needed checks and balances as we all strive to get this (and other) articles to GA (or even FA) status where warranted. As far as my own first hand experience with MCs, I don't want to go into too much detail here (original research is verboten anyway), but I will say that I've been riding since 1975 and the first (but not last) HA I met in 1979 was a member of the now defunct Laval chapter. Garth of the Forest (talk) 06:04, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ninety-nine percenters

I think the "Ninety-nine percenters" section, in general, adds balance to the article, but we must carefully avoid WP:POV issues here. The addition of the phrase indicating that one-percenters generally like to intimidate other riders is generally not true, and certainly will require some supporting references to remain in the article. Most of the people who have negative encounters with one-percenters have generally brought the trouble onto themselves. Mmoyer 15:24, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

One-percenters are self-identified outlaws. I think a better way to phrase your comment about negative encounters would be that most of the people who have NOT had one have gone out of their way to avoid it. You seem to be taking the not uncommon (and apologetic) approach of blaming the victim. As far as intimidation goes, you can fool some of the people some of the time, but c'mon - that is the one-percenters primary modus operandi. You yourself pointed out to us elsewhere that certain motorcycle riding clubs were in danger of having their patches forcibly removed by the dominant outlaw motorcycle gangs in some states, and some of the more noteable riding clubs specifically forbid their members (for their own protection) from wearing three piece patches, lower rockers with a designation (city, state, province, etc.) that could be construed by the dominant outlaw biker gang in the region as "claiming turf" - I mean - if that is not intimidation then what is? Garth of the Forest 06:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I hope that everyone keeps in mind that there are large differences between motorcycle clubs, between chapters within a motorcycle club, and between members of any given chapter. It's a mistake to over-generalize. Also, it's mistake to take events of the 60's, 70's, or 80's and think that they reflect the nature of a given club today. It just isn't so. It's also a mistake to assume that what the press publishes somehow reflects the reality of club life. It's just isn't so. 1% clubs are by definition secretive and protective of thier own. People that that don't understand this or don't understand how this is reflected in their attitude toward ordinary people often feel extremely uncomfortable and even intimidated. War 06:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, it is a mistake to over-generalize. However, we are not talking just about events of the 60's, 70's or 80's, we need only look to events of the past few years to understand that outlaw biker gangs who use the threat of force to go about their daily business are as much (if not more) of a threat today as they were thirty years ago. If anything, they are more so because they have become more organized, and have had to become more sophisticated in their operations precisely because of the efforts of the media, law enforcement, and the general public, to curtail some of their criminal activities. I am an avid biker myself; however we must not kid ourselves about the primary purpose of today's OMG - they are not, as many of them would have you believe, simply "a bunch of people who like to ride motorcycles". I'm very much a believer in "live and let live", but we need to call "a spade a spade" (and of course provide a reliable source citation when doing so). :) Garth of the Forest 00:50, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Its definitely needed in some form. What worries me most about this article is someone with no knowledge of the subject would come away thinking that all motorcyclists are in criminal gangs. now rightly the article focuses on that issues as its a very notable issue of concern, but how do we give balance (in a cited way). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pickle UK (talk • contribs) 22:47, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Aha! I think you've touched on something here, Pickle UK! I will find some supportable numbers and add them to this section. Mmoyer 02:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it's a regional thing. I personally have never heard of anyone calling themself a 99%er. I've seen some stickers and patches that indicate as much but they clearly are meant more as a joke rather than membership in some organization. So..I guess what I'm saying is that this part of the article should probably be called something else. It reads like 99%er is a term that members of other motorcycle clubs identify with, which I do not think is the case.War 05:59, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

99 percenter is a made-up term. Someone put it in the article, and it seemed to fulfill the need for a section about non-one percenters, lending a much needed positive balance to the article. I am completely open to suggestion for a replacement. Mmoyer (talk) 21:59, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Here are some more problem statements in this section that need to be addressed:

• Many of the law abiding citizens referred to as ninety-nine percenters belong to riding clubs such as Harley Owners Group, Christian Motorcyclists Association and others such as law enforcement and firefighter groups.

Issue: This article is about MCs, not riding clubs, so we should mention actual MCs in this statement, not motorcycle riding clubs like HOG and CMA.

• Though possibly mistaken for OMG members, notable ninety-nine percenters who fight the actions of Outlaw Motorcycle Gangs (OMGs) ...

Issue: "fight the actions"?? This statement makes it sound like these clubs are actively at war with 1% MCs, which they most certainly are not. We could change this phrasing to talk about the nature of non-1% MCs, and mention some of the more notable ones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mmoyer (talk • contribs) 03:19, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I've copyedited this section to address the two concerns noted, while still working in a few of the more notable riding clubs. Opinions? 76.114.242.235 03:49, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

I wrote the above comment but my session had expired. Mmoyer 03:54, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hells Angels Membership

In the section of the article for membership, the last statement is false. I don't know how to cite it, but I have a copy of the movie, "Hells Angels Forever" (IMDB webpage for it: Hells Angels Forever). In the movie they have an interview with several members about the "SS" and Nazi regalia they sometimes wear and one member admits he is Jewish, just to prove that the club is not anti semitic in general, though some members may be. This starts at the 58 minute mark in the movie. (Rockabillykid 11:44, 28 September 2007 (UTC)) Some Jews adopt anti-Jewish attitudes to cope with their origins.

There is also an interesting discussion on pages 38 - 47 of Sonny Barger's book Hell's Angel: The Life and Times of Sonny Barger and the Hell's Angels Motorcycle Club on how the Nazi regalia got started. He apparently got a "free belt" from a friend in the late fifties, which was brought back from Germany after the war. Put it in context; in the late fifties there was still lots of World War II era German paraphernalia available in flea markets, second-hand stores, pawn shops, and what not. He also mentions that they generally don't allow Nazi regalia in the clubs anymore because of their German chapters and the fact that all that sort of stuff is illegal in Germany now. In 1997 they took a vote to remove the lightning bolts from the "Filthy Few" patch as well. In this same source Sonny addresses the FAQs he often would get asked about the requirements for membership. User:Garth of the Forest 02:52, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I will work these changes into the article. Thank you both for the thoughtful insight on this topic. I clearly need to buy several books to fill in some blanks in my knowledge of this subject. Have a Wiki day! Mmoyer 17:17, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm in Canada and most of these books are available from the public libraries if you want to save a few bucks. Hopefully the same is true in your area. My next mission is to see if I can find copies of some of the early films, like Hell's Angels 69 and Hells Angels on Wheels. If you haven't already seen it you might enjoy the documentary Hell's Angels that was originally aired on the History Channel in 1998 - I also got that one from the local public library. Garth of the Forest 21:44, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA failed

This page needs to be completely regenerated to pass GA

• First up, the article is heavily under-referenced. Most parts are not referenced.
• Secondly, the references need to be filled out properly. At the moment, a lot of them simply consist of a link. They need full publisher, author, date details, eg see {{cite web}} and {{cite news}} and for an example, see Adam Gilchrist (which is an FA).
• Broken refs: 4, 10
• Ref 1 takes the example of one club and presents it as typical. This is an invalid conclusion.
• Lead is supposed to recap on what the main body says. In this article, some of the lead is not repeated in teh main body and some of is unsourced or appears to be original research. "Membership in a MC is much different than membership in a motorcycle riding club, or any other club, for that matter. A motorcycle club is the pinnacle of the counterculture biker lifestyle, where riding a motorcycle is not just a pastime or a hobby, but a way of life requiring a strong level of commitment to the club and ones fellow members. Membership is not automatic and may take more than a year to earn." and "hough they are grammatically correct, these clubs are not MCs in the strictest sense of the term, and members of MCs, that is, clubs who wear an MC patch, regard these other clubs as motorcycle riding clubs."
• History needs to be expanded.
• One sentence paragraphs in the bottom of "membership" needs to be integrated
• Dates should be wikilinked.

REgards, Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:39, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Too US centered

This article deals basically with MCs in US and US-related stuffs that are not worldwide. Like there's no news coverage about 1%ers or anything like that in here (somewhere outside US). Since most people here rely on motorcycles for daily travels (home to work and such), the image of 'bad biker' is mostly linked to any MC, not being know to a commoner about 99% Clubs, that image of 'good biker' being of any biker not in an MC. Plus, most stuff is too US centered to make the article enough informative to outsiders. 189.5.138.123 (talk) 21:33, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is unhelpful

From the lead: "these clubs are not MCs in the strictest sense of the term". Says who? It's completely unreferenced, so looks like original research. 86.132.142.246 (talk) 01:22, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "Notable" MCs

The talk section discussing notable MCs has been archived but please read it before adding your pet MC and realize that we need to keep a tight reign on additions to the section.

Supersquid (talk) 01:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)