Talk:Mother Jones

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Contents

[edit] POV

"her grandfather was hanged by the British for participation in the Irish national struggle."

This does not sound like an objective description of events to me. Perhaps 'twould be more objective to express the two-sidedness of the war. also was a writer

Yes, lets provide an objective perspective for the colonial occupier —Preceding unsigned comment added by LamontCranston (talk • contribs) 15:24, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Birth date

I have changed the date given for Mother Jones's birth from 12 May 1830 to 1 August 1837, based on the 1830 claim being made by Mother Jones herself in order to augment her very-old-lady image and also establish a connection to May 1 workers' protests. The source for this is the last major biography of Mother Jones, "Mother Jones: The Most Dangerous Woman in America" by Elliott J. Gorn (Hill & Wang, 2001, ISBN 0809070936 & ISBN 0809070944 paperback)

Web opinion is divided on the issue, some sites go with the 1830 date [1] [2] [3] and others with 1837. [4] [5] [6] and [7] which is an article by Elliott J. Gorn and I suggest he counts as the leading authority as her current biographer. GhostGirl 15:17, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

My Encyclopedia Britannica lists her as born in 1830.68.219.227.56 12:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, isn't the 'most dangerous woman in the world' a biased POV? And, what is the history of May 1...could it have been the other way around...R Young {yakłtalk} 12:22, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe if you are to 'debunk' someone, the evidence must be clear. A book with a negative title doesn't sound like it.

Note the April 1, 1930 census lists Mary Ann Jones as 99 years old, living in Maryland:

Search > Census > U.S. Census > 1930 United States Federal Census > Maryland > Prince George's > Vansville > District 1R Young {yakłtalk} 13:18, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

You typed:
...isn't the 'most dangerous woman in the world' a biased POV? ... I believe if you are to 'debunk' someone, the evidence must be clear. A book with a negative title doesn't sound like it.
It isn't in "the world," but rather, in the country, i.e., America.
In my view, these questions indicate unfamiliarity with the history of Mother Jones. The expression is historical, an accurate statement of a description of her from the period, and doesn't originally come from Gorn:
On June 7, 1902, a strike began that led to arrests, and to the increased threat of violence on the part of authorities. Mother Jones herself was put on trial, during which the district attorney called her the "most dangerous woman in America." [8]
Mother Jones wrote about this in her autobiography. Seems unlikely that she was intimidated by such a description; rather, she seemed to dish back everything they threw at her. Here's an excerpt:
The prosecuting attorney jumped to his feet and shaking his finger at me, he said
"Your honor - there is the most dangerous woman in the Country today. She called your honor a scab. But I will recommend mercy of the court - if she will consent to leave the state and never return."
"I didn't come into the court asking mercy," I said, "but I came here looking for justice. And I will not leave this state so long as there is a single little child that asks me to stay and fight his battle for bread."
The judge said, "Did you call me a scab!"
"I certainly did, judge."
He said, "How came you to call me a scab?"
"When you had me arrested I was only talking about the constitution, speaking to a lot of men about life and liberty and a chance for happiness; to men who had been robbed for years by their masters, who had been made industrial slaves. I was thinking of the immortal Lincoln. And it occurred to me that I had read in the papers that when Lincoln made the appointment of Federal judge to this bench, he did not designate senior or junior. You and your father bore the same initials. Your father was away when the appointment came. You took the appointment. Wasn't that scabbing on your father, judge?"
"I never heard that before," said he.
A chap came tiptoeing up to me and whispered, "Madam, don't say 'judge' or 'sir' to the court. Say 'Your Honor.'"
"Who is the court?" I whispered back.
"His honor, on the bench," he said, looking shocked.
"Are you referring to the old chap behind the justice counter? Well, I can't call him 'your honor' until I know how honorable he is. You know I took an oath to tell the truth when I took the witness stand." [9]
Does that sound like she was in any way intimidated? Not only did Mother Jones relish being called "the most dangerous woman" in the country, her supporters promoted the absurdity of such a characterization in cartoons, posters, and articles. One famous cartoon shows Mother Jones being arrested by dozens of militia, all of them pointing bayonets in her face, and she stands before them, unflinching.
There are nearly two thousand references to her, using the description "most dangerous woman in America" on the web, that do not refer to Gorn's book.
Now, whether Gorn's book should be used as a reference, i cannot say-- because i don't have an answer to the date question. But rejecting the book just because one jumps to the conclusion that it is a "biased POV" based upon the title is, in my view, a significant error.
best wishes, Richard Myers 21:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Grandmother of All Alligators?

The link to List_of_people_known_as_the_father_or_mother_of_something is broken. Maikel 08:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

... i. e., she's not listed there. Maikel 14:20, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citecheck template removed

The citecheck template is for articles that may misrepresent references sources, such as quoting statements out of context. I see no discussion of that sort of problem on this page. Please refer to Wikipedia:Cleanup resources if some other template is needed and post the reasons on talk so that other editors can address the problem. Durova 02:36, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inclusion in Anarchism template

From my understanding, Mother Jones was a radical socialist, but not explicitly anarchist. Murderbike 18:06, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think that the tag anarchist probably doesn't belong, even as a stub.
From The Autobiography of Mother Jones at [10]
The anarchists took advantage of the widespread discontent to preach their doctrines. Orators used to address huge crowds on the windy, barren shore of Lake Michigan. Although I never endorsed the philosophy of anarchism, I often attended the meetings on the lake shore, listening to what these teachers of a new order had to say to the workers. [emphasis added]
Unless someone else can provide evidence that she considered herself an anarchist at a later time, i'd suggest removing the anarchist category and the stub links, for they appear to mislead. Richard Myers 02:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Gaps in article

I just dropped by to have a look at this article, and I could see at a glance that it was considerably shorter than I expected. The article's been around for quite a while, so there's way too much history to go through all of it. Large parts of her life have gone missing, and it jumps abruptly from one part of her life to another, so I suspect that material may have been removed at some point. It's very puzzling, so I'm wondering if perhaps somebody who's worked on the article can explain these big gaps. Cgingold 10:09, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

I hardly no anything about the subject. I only watch this article because I stumbled upon some vandalism that stayed for nearly 12 hours; I was reading other topics related to early 20th century U.S. history. I've taken a quick look through the history through 2007 using a function in my screen reader to count the number of lines in a page. I was able to find this piece of vandalism which was reverted in a somewhat unusual way. I have restored the text removed in that vandalism. There may be other instances of unreverted vandalism in the history. I'll check after dinner. Graham87 10:47, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I can't find any more text that has been removed doing a simple line count. Graham87 11:16, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Great work! There are still gaps, but that was a really big chunk of text you restored. I've done similar things on other articles -- I wish people would be more careful when they revert vandalism. Glad you spotted that! Cgingold 13:13, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Folk song

Try as I might, I've been unable to locate any credible confirmation for the assertion that MJ was the inspiration for the folk song "She'll Be Coming 'Round the Mountain". I had never even come across that notion until I saw it in this article, despite having read extensively about Mother Jones for an article I wrote about her 15 years ago. As near as I can determine, all of the references to this suggestion that turn up on the internet, originate with the Wikipedia article She'll Be Coming 'Round the Mountain — which provides no citation. (I've added a request for one there.) Unless somebody can provide a credible source, this line should probably be removed. Cgingold 13:06, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Without citation, it def looks dubious. I'd remove it until somebody can cite it. Murderbike 07:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I just checked on the talk page for She'll Be Coming 'Round the Mountain, and according to the editor who originally added this claim, it appears that there may some support for it in an old book by Carl Sandburg. I've asked him for additional details. Cgingold 11:30, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] arrest stories

This appears twice I think after two separate incidents - "she was soon released when the attackers were identified as associates of a prominent local business person." Is that supposed to be there twice? - Tbsmith 04:21, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

No it isn't - the first one wasn't meant to be there. That is related to the #Gaps in article section above. I've fixed the text so it corresponds with this revision. Graham87 05:39, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Corrected "Mine Riot" link

Reference to the Virden Mine Riot of 1898 is now correct (it's external to Wikipedia, but at least it goes to the right place, pending the creation of a Wikipedia article covering the subject). It originally linked to Virden, Illinois. Now to correct a similar problem in United Mine Workers, which refers to the same event. 24.178.228.14 (talk) 22:19, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your link fails WP:EL. One Night In Hackney303 04:44, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello One Night In Hackney, your revert was incorrect according to the justification that you used in reverting. Specifically:
  • Regarding WP:EL - quoting the style guide of EL, "As the occasional exception may arise, it should be approached with common sense." Quoting the page-in-a-nutshell just below the style guide, "Adding external links can be a service to our readers, but they should be kept to a minimum of those that are meritable, accessible and appropriate to the article."
  • Application to the article: the pre-modified article contained a link-to-nowhere or a link to an inappropriate location, and it described a historical event with an apparently made-up name, whereas the event is known by an accepted name .
  • The article modifications more than satisfied the criteria in the EL style guide and nutshell summary. The article improvement was quantifiable, providing useful information where none had existed before, and using the accepted name of a historical event where a made-up name had been used before.
This was all explained on the talk page, in a compact but understandable form. Patrollers who attempt to improve Wikipedia are a good thing, and mistakes are understandable. Regards, 24.178.228.14 (talk) 17:26, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
We don't link to self-published unreliable sources. One Night In Hackney303 17:37, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Catholic?

An anon IP added the Category "American Roman Catholics", but the only mention of this is that her parents were RC. Does anyone have a source substantiating the claim that Mary herself was RC? Murderbike (talk) 20:37, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Removed. The anon has been busy adding the cat to various articles, often in violation of BLP. I'll check the other recent edits now. One Night In Hackney303 20:40, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Cool. Murderbike (talk) 21:00, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Haymarket riot

As the Haymarket riot was on May 4, the section of the article that says she might have chosen May 1 as her alleged birth date in commemoration of that affair, would seem incorrect. Alpheus (talk) 14:01, 30 April 2008 (UTC)