Talk:Mother Hulda

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents 1 Origins 2 Relationship with Holda article 3 Reincarnation 4 Use of the word "Germanic" - keep linguistic

[edit] Origins

The origins I wrote in this article are actually a synthesis of all info I could find on Mother Hulda, but as you can see it's nigh on impossible to be certain of the exact source of the character. Don't blame me if I got it wrong. It was hard enough as it is. Feel free to edit.

I'll complete the plot synopsis later on but I'm not terribly good at writing so anyone else is welcome to try his hand on it. --Steerpike 20:54, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Relationship with Holda article

I've been expanding the Holda article somewhat (still more to go), and I'm wondering what relationship it should have to this article? Potentially some or all of the info here could be merged with the other article. Is this article intending to be about Holda/Hulda herself, or about the fairy-tale? Fuzzypeg 13:34, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reincarnation

The story is not so much a metaphor for the afterlife as it is for reïncarnation. The girls do not literally die but move on to the next life by passing through the land of Mother Hulda. They do not stay there. Mother Hulda's land is not heaven. So yes it bears resemblance to other religions (good deeds are rewarded, bad ones punished) but moreso with Buddhism. I edited several sections out because it sounds as if the writer is discussing the theme with him/herself. We should do that on the talkpage. --Steerpike 23:50, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

There is absolutely no evidence that the story has anything to do with reincarnation at all. Metaphor or otherwise. Therefore it has no more connection with Buddhism than with anything else. Therefore the projection of a Buddhist allegory is non-neutral POV, and I've deleted it entirely. If anyone has specific people who have given it religious interpretations -- besides yourself -- that might be relevant, but claims that it is Buddhist are wildly unsuitable. Goldfritha 23:57, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

to expand -- it's obviously much closer to the Christian notion of afterlife than the Buddhist notion of karma because it is one-shot. Once the daughter had failed, she was permanently covered with pitch; she did not get another chance at service to do better. This is clearly much closer to the notion that it is appointed to men to die once, and then comes judgment, that to the endless cycle of rebirth. Goldfritha 00:03, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I disagree, but it depends how look at it. The key element here is the fact that the girls "return" after their stay with Mother Hulda. Shouldn't Mother Hulda be the end of the road in a Christian system? The "afterlife" in this story is merely a passageway back to earth. The girls do not stay there. Shouldn't the bad girl burn in hell once she drowns in the well? There clearly is a chance at redemption, but the bad girl fails and must live with it "in her next life". There is room for change, because she will eventually die again. No?

Ok I suppose this is all susceptible to debate, but let me make clear that I did not write the analysis myself (as in: original research). As far as I remember I copied it from a Dutch website. I'll try and look it up to have it referenced. But in the mean time it is probably best to leave it out as you say. --Steerpike 00:17, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Use of the word "Germanic" - keep linguistic

Please be sensitive to the use of the word "Germanic" in this article. There is reference to a "Germanic people" with a wide and non-specific reference to where they might live. It is hinted that they may include people like the Scandinavians, for example. There are people who live in Germany who are Germans. And there is a Germanic language family. Search google for "define:germanic" and you'll see that "teutonic" is not far behind.

Stories of Mother Hulda, and her many aspects were not told only in German. Therefore, the term "Germanic people" smacks of Nazi propaganda when applied to this folklore. Some authors from the 1930's to the 1950's use that term in that imprecise way, and it is outdated and hurtful to some people.

People who lived under threat of German attack during and before both world wars (mostly in the Eastern Europe area) will tell you how imprecise it is to be classified as "Germanic people." It is a term misused to acculturate a part of Europe by making wide declarations about the ownership of land and people.

This story and others about Mother Hulda were told in many languages, among them Russian, Hungarian, Swedish, Slavonic, Czech, Romanian, etc... Perhaps a term we can compromise on would be "Germanic speaking people" but of course, that would limit the discussion to a subset of those people who knew and propogated the Mother Hulda story.

Keep in mind that fairy tales are the original viral phenomenon. People didn't tell their kids stories because they were "authentically German" or "authentically whatever" they did it because they liked the story or they remembered it. It was more a matter or memory or availability or preference. And stories traveled via travellers with good memories - having contact with locals with good memories. That's what makes the Grimm's achievement so good. They actually tried to trace this stuff. It's like trying to trace the origin of an email chain letter, but with half the servers missing.

My thanks to you for your efforts, I just wanted you to be aware of a semantic issue that is often missed and turns some people off. QuickieWiki 19:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)