Talk:Moshe Katsav

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[edit] Funeral

No it should not be "Farsi" which is the incorrect term for Persian. It is only called farsi by native speakers, end of story.

How could have Moshe Katsav both spoke to president Khatami and Bashar Asad in Farsi?? please make a correction; it states Katsav is fluent in "persian", but it should be "Farsi"

Persian and Farsi are two words for the same language. Avengerx 11:17, 21 December 2005 (UTC)
But Bashar Asad doesn't speak Farsi, so I'll fix that. AucamanTalk 03:14, 16 January 2006 (UTC)


Can that section be totally deleted? swissinfo.org seems to be the only source. And it doesn't seem to be an accurate one.

The photo has nothing to do with the description. It is possible the guy with his back in the photo is Assad but its very unlike... because the article says it was arranged in alphabetical order and even if it was Assad was in the first row and Katsav was on the second, its unlike the amount of space all the A's take is the same to As till Ka. Khatami is not at all in the photo. ems 15:25, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Very good point. The caption of the photo seems accurate. For one thing, Bashar Assad is really tall and skinny and the person in the photo doesn't seem tall at all. But the person standing next to Katsav is definitely Khatami, so they were indeed sitting next to eachother. As for the stuff in the article, we can't really interpret the sources, but I'll re-read the article and see what I can do. AucamanTalk 13:10, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
The meeting in the funeral -- or at least the seating arrangement -- did happen, as this BBC News article confirms it. I'm sure you can find more mentions of it with a quick Google search. The article has a picture of Katsav, Assad, and Khatami, at the funeral. The man in the righthand side of Image:Khatami_Katsav.jpg is, in fact, Khatami. Compare it to Image:Iran.PresidentKhatami.jpg. I'm not sure of the identity of the man pictured with his back to the camera, though. There are no reasons to assume it is Assad, in my opinion, despite the fact that the picture in the BBC News article shows him quite near Katsav and Khatami. His facial features don't match those of Bashar Assad, I reckon. --Jill St. Crux 13:23, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Isn't this pretty much what I said? AucamanTalk 13:33, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
Err, exactly my point. The alphabetical order makes it impossible for Assad to of been next to him. ems 13:44, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

I have dealt with all issues above and more to the best of my understanding and have removed the template after I thought the issues raised here - and the others that bothered me - were solved. I hope the new version is agreeable for both sides. If in doubt, please read the edit summaries for the rationale of my changes. Please drop a message here or or on my talk page if there remain any problems. gidonb 15:14, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

  • It looks like he and Richard Perle were separated at birth. It's a joke. Aug. 31, 2006*


The seating arrangements were alphabetical by country, which puts Iran and Israel in close proximity (only Iraq comes between them, alphabetically speaking). Cymruisrael 12:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Disproportionate

I'm not exactly a fan of the guy, but a disproportionately large section of this article is devoted to the recent rape case, and almost nothing to Katsav's biography. Especially if you look a the Hebrew article, where the biography spans some four sub-sections, his family another one, and the rape case is only two paragraphs as a sub of his term as president.

While the rape case is one of the primary interests a WP reader might have in Katsav, the lack of background information constitutes POV, I think. I will make an effort to compare the Hebrew and English bio sections, see what's missing, and translate as much as I can source. Not that long an article even in Hebrew, so it's doable. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 11:31, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading categories

I've removed twice categories suce as rapists, sexual offenders and criminals. The Katsav case hasn't even been brought to trial, let alone a verdict. Tsar User 09:12, 1 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Farsi

The Farsi name is incorrect. My Farsi is not good enough to fix it, but the family name in Farsi was Qasaab, meaning "butcher." It is a common last name. 75.16.11.61 12:32, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Could someone find out what his name is in Farsi and re-add it? 203.109.240.93 13:48, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
"Qasaab" in Farsi text could be spelled قساب or قصاب 68.163.230.81 07:14, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't know Farsi, but from what I remember from my friend his name is Massu Qassab. If someone can find a source for this they should put his name up.

[edit] Why the material about Dorit Beinisch?

I don't understand why the material about Dorit Beinisch is in the section about the sexual assault charges. Is she one of the alleged victims? That isn't stated in the article right now. -- Creidieki 21:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

As president, Katsav was meant to be present at her swearing in as the head of the supreme court, but he declared himself temporarily incapacitated for the day. There was quite a scandal in the media. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 12:57, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Witchhunt and conviction by media?

In this edit, Patchouli added a sub-heading to the article to cover Katsav's press conference after the decision to indict, and the accusations he leveled therein. The phrasing of the sub-heading supports his allegations, and is therefore POV. Any suggestions for more neutral language? Does "Indictment press conference" cover the contents of the sub-section well enough? LeaHazel : talk : contribs 13:20, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

I just added "Claims of", which is factual, verifiable information. I thought about the heading "2006 sexual harassment and rape case", too, but decided the word "case" makes it factual (i.e., there's an actively worked case for this, not a legally confirmed event). ~ Jeff Q (talk) 13:30, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
The section is still a bit problemmatic, for example "His refusal to explain the details and his desire for the due process has led to his conviction by the media". Says who? If this was a specific claim made by Katsav then it should be attributed to him. If not, then it needs to be seriously reworked and still needs a reference. For example, "commentators such as XYC have suggested his refusal to explain the details and his desire to simply await the outcome of the case has led to his conviction by the media". If no one has said this, then it should be removed IMHO. Also, unless "Taking the Fifth" is a resonably common phrase in Israel this should be removed as it is an Americanism of little relevance to this article in such a case 203.109.240.93 13:45, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I thought "Taking the Fifth" sounded out of place, too. I was just "passing through", so I didn't take the time to read the content of the section. 203.109.240.93 is correct that we need specific citations of reliable sources for any claims. Despite the irony, it should not be hard to get some press references for any complaints Katsav may have made about being "convicted by the media". After all, such statements are salacious enough to sell copy, eh? ~ Jeff Q (talk) 14:32, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
"Taking the Fifth" has no sense in Israel, since there is no 5th ammendment of a non-existant constitution of Israel... the term frequently used is "right of silence" (in Police questioning).Nitsansh 15:46, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Is there a transcript of the press conference? I think that a quote from that should clarify as well as source Katsav's response to the allegations, the indictment and media coverage thereof. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 22:13, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I just removed a sentence which made little or no sense. Is it me? Probably.--Tom 14:54, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

You're referring to the sentence 203.109.240.93 quotes above, as well as the aside about "Taking the Fifth". Based on the discussion above, it's not just you. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 07:21, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Youngest Mayor Ever?

That trivia fact is untrue. In Israel, the term "mayor" (Rosh Ir) is used only for cities (and Qiryat Mal'akhi was not a city at the time). The youngest mayor of an Israeli city was Katsav's younger brother, Lior Katsav, who was elected mayor of Qiryat Mal'akhi (a city by that time) at the age of 28.

Katsav was not even the youngest head of local council (town or region), since in 1956 Benny Shalita was elected as head of Menakhamia, a small town near the Kinneret lake, at the age of 22. Katsav was only the third youngest head of local council (Jalal Abu-Toama from Baqa-El-Gharbia local council was also a few months younger than Katsav when elected). 194.29.36.33 17:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Charged with rape

Katsav is being charged with a series of offenses, some of them sex-crimes, including rape. That does not resolve to "activities of a sexual nature." That makes it sound like he's being charged with screwing around behind his wife's back. The full nature of the allegations, the investigation and the impending indictment should be made clear (if it's to be mentioned in the lead paragraph at all). LeaHazel : talk : contribs 12:27, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Let's not make unfounded assumptions - WP:BLP.--20.138.246.89 14:10, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
There's nothing unfounded with the statement that he will be charged with rape. As the first source on the page state, "The attorney general said on Tuesday that he intended to indict him on a slew of charges including rape, sexual harassment and abuse of power."[1]. When the Main Page of Wikipedia (editable only by admins) has the word "rape" next to "Moshe Katsav" and yet the word doesn't exist in the lede in this article, it is inconsistent, to say the least. WP should not be so cowardly as to avoid any negative accusation against a living person even if it has been slathered all over the international press. hateless 20:49, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

There's a prediction that he'll be charged. This is an encyclopedia, not a newspaper. Better to wait until the charge is filed, i.e., the indictment is made. --Uncle Ed 21:24, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

No, there's a statement of intent. Mazuz is the atturney general, he's the one who presses charges, so when he says he intends to charge Katsav with rape that's not exactly WP:CRYSTAL. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 21:36, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
Agreed, a statement of intent is not a prediction. Ed, your point is that it's not a foregone conclusion, but frankly, that is high bar that doesn't need to be raised that high. WP does not restrict itself to the historical record only. And again, you're imposing standards that admins do not recognize and don't follow on the Main Page. The word "rape" should be in the lede, and the verbal gymnastics you're using in the lede is a disservice to the reader and looks like a work of censorship.hateless 22:43, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Putin quote

Souns highly suspicious. If Putin had commended Katsav for rape, wouldn't there be sources for it other than in Russian? Someone who reads Russian needs to check if this is a hoax, vandalism or something else. LeaHazel : talk : contribs 10:46, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Here you go --> [2] . thestick 05:02, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

This Putin quote sounds quite irrelevant here. Are we going to have section for every guy who Putin has greeted? It is like some trivia section, but by BLP we should not have trivia. We all can make bad jokes sometimes... --Magabund 16:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The quote was widely reported so it is notable. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 18:43, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Resumption of Duties

Katsav was to resumes his Presidential duties in April. Did this occur or not? GoodDay 17:56, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Succession Box

The way to manage the Succession Box is further complicated by the election today. Should Dalia Itzik, the woman serving as the acting president, be placed in the succession box as concurrent or as succeeeding Moshe Katzav, occupying the same box as Shimon Perez? I present two possibilities and I want to see what people think: How it looks as of this diff

Political offices
Preceded by
Avraham Burg (acting)		 President of Israel
2000–present
Dalia Itzik, 2007-present (acting)		 Succeeded by
Shimon Peres (elect)

Alternative:

Political offices
Preceded by
Avraham Burg (acting)		 President of Israel
2000–present
 Succeeded by
Dalia Itzik, 2007-present (acting)
Shimon Peres (elect)


What do you all think? Valley2city 21:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I personally think that Peres does not take office until he takes office, and until then the succession box (as well as the info box in the article) should not identify Peres as the successor, since he has not yet succeeded to the office. (And by the way, it is Peres, not Perez.) 6SJ7 22:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
True that. I fixed the spelling both on the page and here, and meanwhile, I await further responses. Do we usually put "-elect" in succession boxes? Valley2city 23:42, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
1. Avraham Burg was never President.
2. Neither was Dalia Itzik. She is only Acting President, probably every Knesset Speaker ever got to be Acting President at some point when the President was absent for some reason (e.g, trip abroad), we can't and shouldn't list every person that got to be Acting President.--Doron 09:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I put Itzik as concurrent (in the succession box) to Katsav, because she's serving as Acting President while Katsav is President. All the other listed Acting Presidents served when the Israeli Presidency was vacant. GoodDay 23:30, 15 June 2007 (UTC)


The new Presidential succession box

Preceded by
Avraham Burg (interim)		 List of Presidents of Israel
2000-07		 Succeeded by
Dalia Itzik (interim)

On July 1, 2007 (when Katsav's resignation, takes effect), this should be the new Presidential succession box. Itzak will continue as Acting President, only this time it will be during a Presidential vacancy. GoodDay 14:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I meant to say- when Katsav's resignation takes effect, Itzik effectively changes from 'Acting President' (serving during Presidential incapacity) to 'Interim President' (during Presidential vacancy). GoodDay 16:12, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Resignation

As of now, that's 1 July 2007, Katzev's resignation is in effect and Itzik is now acting president, with the presidency vacent. shouldn't she be officially designated as his successor, especially since Burg is listed as Katzev's predecessor? Ericl 20:41, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to quible, but now is 30 June. ابو علي (Abu Ali) 10:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
Correct, let's wait until July 1. On that date, we'll have to alter the Presidential succession box (make Itzak, Katsav's immediate successor). GoodDay 14:39, 30 June 2007 (UTC)






"I saw that you put in the article about the latest game of Beytar Jerusalem a template that means that the subject of the article is not important enough to deserve an article in the English Wikipedia. I assume that you, sir, are not an Israeli, and you didn't hear in none of the newscasts of the English-speaking countries about the event that happened in the end of the game. But the English Wikipedia is not the American Wikipedia, the Wikipedia of the West or the Wikipedia of the English-speaking countries. People who think that this is the English Wikipedia are those who responsible for the disrespect that is demonstrated in the English Wikipedia towards official titles and correct names in languages that are not Germanic or does not written in the alphabet which is used in the English language, that as part of it the "Legal adviser of the government" had been changed to the "Attorney General of Israel", the name that had been written in the article about the legal adviser of the government as "Gid'on Hauzner", as it is pronounced in the original language, had been changed to "Gideon Hausner", the form to which the original name is translated, and not the form to which it is transcribed, to the English language, and in this manner, "Khayim Kohen" had been changed to "Haim Cohen", "Me'ir Shamgar" had been changed to "Meir Shamgar", "Yitskhak Zamir" had been changed to "Yitzhak Zamir", "Mikha'el Ben Ya'ir" had been changed to "Michael Ben Yair", and the list is still long. The English Wikipedia is a global Wikipedia, a comprehensive encyclopedia of the sons of all lands, cultures, religions, nations and countries and their knowledge. We shouldn't suit the English Wikipedia or the information that appears in it to the English-speaking countries, nor to the rules of the so-called "transcription" of the Germanic languages, nor to anything that enlarge the distance between them and the truth and the origin. Please accept my words in tolerance." (the content of the comment that I wrote in the user talk page of the user who put the "notability template" in the article "Beytar Jerusalem v HaPo'el Petakh Tikva (2006/2007 season)", that is mainly about the bedlam that occurred after the end of this Ligat Ha'Al game). I am contributing now this content to the English Wikipedia in the name of its being a global, all-comprehensive and all-inclusive encyclopedia, in which people from all around the World are writing every thing that is known to them in every level and field, provided that the subject of their writing have encyclopedic importance. Es257 06:54, 1 July 2007 (UTC)








"I saw that you put in the article about the latest game of Beytar Jerusalem a template that means that the subject of the article is not important enough to deserve an article in the English Wikipedia. I assume that you, sir, are not an Israeli, and you didn't hear in none of the newscasts of the English-speaking countries about the event that happened in the end of the game. But the English Wikipedia is not the American Wikipedia, the Wikipedia of the West or the Wikipedia of the English-speaking countries. People who think that this is the English Wikipedia are those who responsible for the disrespect that is demonstrated in the English Wikipedia towards official titles and correct names in languages that are not Germanic or does not written in the alphabet which is used in the English language, that as part of it the "Legal adviser of the government" had been changed to the "Attorney General of Israel", the name that had been written in the article about the legal adviser of the government as "Gid'on Hauzner", as it is pronounced in the original language, had been changed to "Gideon Hausner", the form to which the original name is translated, and not the form to which it is transcribed, to the English language, and in this manner, "Khayim Kohen" had been changed to "Haim Cohen", "Me'ir Shamgar" had been changed to "Meir Shamgar", "Yitskhak Zamir" had been changed to "Yitzhak Zamir", "Mikha'el Ben Ya'ir" had been changed to "Michael Ben Yair", and the list is still long. The English Wikipedia is a global Wikipedia, a comprehensive encyclopedia of the sons of all lands, cultures, religions, nations and countries and their knowledge. We shouldn't suit the English Wikipedia or the information that appears in it to the English-speaking countries, nor to the rules of the so-called "transcription" of the Germanic languages, nor to anything that enlarge the distance between them and the truth and the origin. Please accept my words in tolerance." (the content of the comment that I wrote in the user talk page of the user who put the "notability template" in the article "Beytar Jerusalem v HaPo'el Petakh Tikva (2006/2007 season)", that is mainly about the bedlam that occurred after the end of this Ligat Ha'Al game). I am contributing now this edit to the English Wikipedia in the name of its being a global, all-comprehensive and all-inclusive encyclopedia, in which people from all around the World are writing every thing that is known to them in every level and field, provided that the subject of their writing have encyclopedic importance. Es257 08:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)