Talk:Moses Sofer

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[edit] Initial Comments

RK, this is truly impressive. I never got around to writing up this article. I've made some additions. Do you know his father's name (his mother's is mentioned). Also: is there any evidence that Sofer opposed Hirsch? JFW | T@lk 17:06, 16 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Sadly, although I just spent three hours at the Jewish Theological Seminary Library (in New York City) today, I didn't quite get to this topic! I actually read a little about him, but didn't have enough time and money to finish photocopying all my research. (I am not a JTS student, so I can't take books out. I can only read them their, take notes, or photocopy.) But I do have some references on him that I want to check out next week. I did manage to learn a lot about the Rabbinical Council of America (RCA), Rabbi Joseph Soloveitchik, and their relationship with the (now-defunct) Synagogue Council of America, and the two different ill-fated attempts to form a joint national Beit Din (One attempt was with the Rabbinical Alliance of America, a small Orthodox group; the other was with the Conservative movement's Rabbinical Assembly.) I photocopied some 60 pages of The Emergence of the English Speaking Orthodox Rabbinate by Rabbi Louis Bernstein, which originally was his Ph.D. thesis (and later published as a book, now sadly out-of-print.) Bernstein single-handedly tracked down hundreds of rare primary sources, including personal letters and archived official documents, and interviewed all the key players in the history of the RCA, as well as some of their Conservative and Orthodox counterparts in other organizations. RK

I managed to trace Sofer's dad's name. I get the impression Sofer's reaction to Hirsch' Horeb is not recorded (it was published 2 years before his death). At any rate, Hirsch only formulated his Torah im Derech Eretz in Emden anyway. JFW | T@lk 01:17, 17 Aug 2004 (UTC)

He's also popularly known as Chasam Sofer. Perhaps a redirect there too? I don't know how to do that. --Yodamace1 21:14, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
Done. JFW | T@lk 23:56, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Date of Birth

I changed the year of birth for the Chasam Sofer from 1763 to 1762, because 7 days in Tishrei 5523 is somewhere around September 1762. But due to this change, the Common date of 14 September is probably incorrect too. I found the date 24 September in the Kalischer family tree; maybe that is correct. Either way whoever re-extrapolates the proper date; please take note that in 1762 in Frankfurt, they might have used the Julian Calendar as opposed to the Gregorian Calendar. If anyone knows, please speak up. Itzse 20:30, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pupils

Many of the pupils listed may never achieve enough notability to warrant their own pages. Do they need to remain linked? JFW | T@lk 21:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Out of these 21 names; there are complete books of the full biography of at least half of them. The ones I am aware of are: Maram Ash, Rabbi Avrohom Shag, leader of the "Teilung", Maharam Schick, Maglei Tzedek, Rabbi Yehuda Modrin, Ksav Sofer & probably Rabbi Shimon Sofer. The rest might have a book about them; but at the very least we probably have semi complete biographies of them; for example, the Kol Aryeh, Rabbi Chaim Zvi Manheimer; Rabbi Hillel Kolemeyer, Rabbi Chaim Sofer, Rabbi Zalmen Spitzer. Rabbi Meir Perles; while I haven't seen a complete biography of him; needs his own page, because he was probably the greatest Rabbi in Hungary who opposed the "Teilung". By opening new pages for even some less notable pupils of the Chasam Sofer; maybe someone out there has in their possession some more information; & if everone adds what they know I'm sure a full article can spring up in no time.
I do question if we should list all his pupils (most without links)? Does it make sense? Or only his most notable pupils? Itzse 22:00, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

There must be reliable sources we can quote at the bottom. The CIS biography is partially fictionalised and not really suitable, but we may get away with linking to the Jewish Encyclopedia. Itzse, do you have any good sources, given that you managed to procure the list of pupils? JFW | T@lk 22:11, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, although I produced this list out of memory and later checked it out & corrected some mistakes; there is a monumental work on all disciples of the Chasam Sofer by Reb Zishe Kinstlicher. His original work was "Ishim Betshuvas Chasam Sofer" but about a year ago he revised his book by the name of "Hachasam Sofer Vetalmidov" which is a phenomenal achievement; it is literally an encyclopedia of all known Talmidim of the Chasam Sofer & his descendants; full of facts, dates & places. Almost all of my added dates & places should be there; although I can probably produce a lot of his sources if needed, should a dispute arise.
I would also quote the original works on the biography of the Chasam Sofer, like "Chut Hameshulesh", "Igrois Sofrim" & maybe some later ones like "Ksoiv Zois Zekoren". Itzse 22:56, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I removed that he received ordination; because it's elementary that a Rabbi received ordination; especially such a great Rabbi. It would only be noteworthy if we knew from whom he received Semicha. In this article it was left intentionally vague as to who gave him Semicha. Even if we knew that he received it in Mainz; we still don't know from whom because he was a pupil of Rabbi Tebele Shaier and then from his son, I think his name was Rabbi Yechiel Mechel Shaier. I'll try to find more information about this. Itzse 17:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

After writing the above, I noticed that his two years in Mainz cannot be true because from 1776 to 1782 we have six years; so I edited accordingly; but this matter still has to be looked into. My best guess is that he received Semicha from Rabbi Tebele Scheur; but I'll try to check it out first. Itzse 17:41, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The Chasam Sofer in his hesped (eulogy) on Rabbi Mechel Sheur; calls him Alif ne'iroi (teacher of my youth). He also writes that he stood before him during the years 5536 (1776) and 5537 (1777).

From elsewhere I found that Rabbi Mechel became Rabbi of Worms in the year 5538 (1778), and that his brother Rabbi Naftali Hirtz Sheur (1755-1812) who was also Rosh Yeshiva in his fathers Yeshiva while his father was alive; eventually became Rabbi of Mainz in the year 1800. Itzse 18:30, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Some Emendations and response to Haskalah

I copyedited much of the work, fixing comma placements and such and editing sentences to remove some of the archaic style of writing. Also, חדש אסור מן התורה is a halacha that applies to grain before the Omer and Shtei-HaLechem; it is not a phrase created by the Chasam Sofer (ZT"L), but a Midrashic phrase appropriated for use in this situation.

Lastly, when talking about the immaleability of Torah, it is the Halachos, the rules, the precedents that are unchanging. For example, it is not true that electricity is Asur because it is new per se; rather, we seek to find the Halachic precedents for it in Torasaynu HaKedosha and see how they apply. As the Halachos of Aish, Makeh B'Patish, or Binyan (for example) are well described, the question is their application (unchanged in their tenents) to this phenomenon. To say that "Everything New is Asur", in my opinion, is to miss the point and walk dangerously along the lines of the Karaim when trying to define the Chasam Sofer.

[edit] His first wife's name

I had originally changed her name from Sarah to Malka because I found; I think in the Kalischer family tree that her name was Malka. I assumed that Malka must be correct because it seemed highly unlikely that both of his wives were "widows" and also with the same name Sarah. For the correctness of the article I'm changing it back to Sarah as I found it; until someone knows better and brings a source.

Also if someone knows that his first wife was a widow; then add that fact too.

Now regarding the Chasam Sofer's second wife; in the intoduction to the sefer Hayad Hachazaka her first father-in-law calls her Sarah but in Igrois Sofrim in a letter from her father Rabbi Akiva Eiger to her husband the Chasam Sofer; he calls her Sarel. It could still be that her main name was Sarah but her father called her Sarel beloshen chibah Itzse 21:06, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I finally found a source that his first wifes name was Sarah in an article about Prossnitz titled Geschichte Der Juden In Prossnitz by Dr. Leopold Goldschmied. The article is in German & if my memory serves me correct it is in a book by Hugo Gold. I found a copy of this article while I was searching (as usual) for something else.
In page 8 of the article he writes "Hier lebte damals Hirsch Jerwitz, der Sohn des langjahrigen Vorsitzenden des rabbinischen Gerichtshofes, Moses Jerwitz. Hirsch war hoch angesehen und Mitglied des Gemeindevorstandes. Am 11. Thamus 1785 verlangt er vom Vorstande eine Familienstelle fur den Brautigam seiner Schwester Sara fur Moses Sofer, Frankfurt, unter gleichzeitiger ErmaSigung der Einkommentaxe."
He also writes (ibid) "Biz zum Jahre 1794 bleib Moses Sofer hier. Die Vermogensverhaltnisse des Hirsch Jerwitz gestalteten sich abar so ungunstig, daS er nicht in der Lage war, seinem Schwager die versprochene Verpflegung zuteil werden zu lassen. Demzufolge sah sich Moses Sofer veranlaSt, selbst fur seinem Unterhalt zu sorgen. So kam er nach StraSnitz, wo er am 3. Elul 1794 zum Rabbiner gewahlt wurde."
I'm not exactly sure what title he gives for Rabbi Moses Jerwitz, if Rabbi or Rosh Beis Din (is it the same thing here?) or something else; so someone who really understands German; please correct the article accordingly.
Also is Strasnitz, Dresnitz? Itzse 18:49, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I verified that Strossnitz is indeed Dresnitz. Also that Rabbi Moses Jerwits was Rosh Beth Din (chief of the Rabbinical court) of Prossnitz. Itzse 20:30, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Maharam Ash?

there was a talmid of the cahatam sofer called the Maharam Ash. any information on him? There definately exists a picture of him somewhere....

thanksgevaldik! 20:29, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

There is a biography of the Maharam Ash in the beginning of one the works he authored. There is also a picture (painting; as he died in 1854) of him which illustrates biography & history books. Itzse 20:27, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ktav Sofer

The subject's son, Rav A.S.B. Sofer, played an important role in the development of Hungarian orthodoxy, and his Torah thoughts are widely quoted. I notice we have no article about him. Does anyone have a good resource that I could use for background reading? Alternatively, is anyone willing to start off this article? JFW | T@lk 12:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The first biography of him was written by his son who called it Ohel Leah. It is printed in front of the sefer Ksav Sofer al Hatorah. More first hand information can be gotten from Chut Hameshulesh & Igrois Sofrim. If someone starts it I'll try to find time to edit it with more information. Itzse 23:23, 21 August 2006 (UTC)