Talk:Morton's toe

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This page has been linked to Celtic toe merge suggestion, probably by mistake.

Please feel free to comment. This celtic toe is not strictly Morton's toe. Its an article dedicated to the Celtic People and the shape of their feet. It is also related to English feet, and podiatry but not to morton's toe in general. What further citations and references would you prefer to see?

Seems there is an ovious interest in both Genealogy sites and basic people's curiosity. Read each forum post, er okay... read a few and you will find about 150 genuine people interested in reading about the celtic toe, and how to decorate their new found conversation piece. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrittonLaRoche (talk • contribs)

It was not a mistake. Please stop removing the tag until discussion has been had. IrishGuy talk 01:20, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Celtic Toe is Not Morton's Toe

According to Dr. Jackson's Definition of the Celtic foot, the second metatarsal does not need to be longer than the Hallux. This is the primary difference between the Celtic toe and Morton's toe. With Morton's toe the length of the second metatarsal must be longer than the Hallux. With the Cetlic toe, it need only break the steep angle from the first toe to the fith, giving the foot a more rounded appearance.

Foot Commercial Website Shoe last

[edit] References

[edit] See Also

[edit] Related Discussion from Celtic toe

[edit] Foot Vs Toe

The difference noted by Phyllis Jackson between the Celtic Foot and the Saxon Foot refers to the "steep angle between the first toe to the fith" on the Saxon foot. Clearly mortons toe, the second toe or any toe greater than or equal to the Big toe breaks the angle. If there is any case of any toe being longer than the second toe... I'd like to hear about it. Never seen such a thing. So by simple inference the celtic toe is related to the celtic foot. Its the only toe capable of breaking a steep angle from the first to the fith. Is it not?

Also worth noting is the genetic dominance of Morton's toe, as it is really a shortening of the Big toe. Thus Morton's toe probably plays a role in the celtic foot and toe. It is different from mortons toe in that not every one with Mortons toe is of celtic descent. But all celts have a shortened big toe. --Britton LaRoche 13:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

"If there is any case of any toe being longer than the second toe... I'd like to hear about it", really? My big toe is longer, so is my son's, I think it's quite common. Note that all the Morton's/Celtic toe descriptions seem to be referring to digit extent profie, rather than digit length (cf Peters et al. 2002 American Journal of Physical Anthropology 117:209-217) so I use the same measure. I have seen absolutely no mention of any study of the genetic basis of Morton's toe. Similar claims about Mendelian traits underlying differences in relative finger lengths (made in the 1950) turned out to be completely wrong. I'd be shocked if there's a Mendelian trait determining relative toe length, but not relative finger length. Pete.Hurd 13:58, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Good point Pete! I'd also hazzard a guess that you are not of Celtic descent. The point of the Celtic toe is that the second toe is the only toe that can be of near the same size ( correction same digit extent - Will update article ) as the big toe. No other (remaining toe 3,4 or 5) is near the same digit extent or greater than the second toe. --Britton LaRoche 14:02, 28 June 2006 (UTC)
Another good point, we can drop the relative finger lengths, because they are not consistent with a dominant trait like Mortons toe. The only thing that can be considered related in the genetic disorder listed on the Hallux page, leading to brachydactyly [1] [2] Makes perfect sense as to why it would be a toe length and not a finger length. Morton's toe is not related to brachydactyly, but it is a dominant genetic trait, and there fore and established scientific fact, where as finger digit length is not. --Britton LaRoche 14:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Further Evidence of the Celtic Toe

Searching under "Saxon foot" I hit upon further evidence of the celtic toe Achaeology UK Here we can see the shortened big toe giving prominance to the Celtic Toe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BrittonLaRoche (talk • contribs)

It's not further evidence: it's just a different page in the same already-multiply-cited article, Footloose in Archaeology by Phyllis Jackson, which appears twice at www.archaeology.co.uk (here and here). Tearlach 00:52, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expanded

I've expanded and clarified things a bit: seems there was a confusion between two different Mortons who described foot problems. Tearlach 19:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

good job, especially thre online mendelian inheritance in man link! Pete.Hurd 02:21, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Incidence in different populations

References to be verified (expanded) before adding to article.

  • 11.3/7.8% of males (right/left) and 7.6/4.6% of females, Mukherjee, D. P. & Rao, V. R. (1975) Association between digital formulae of hands and feet. Indian journal of physical anthropology and human genetics 1: 1-8.
  • US Caucasians (Cleveland) 24% Kaplan, A. R. (1964) Genetics of relative toe lengths. Acta Genet. Med. Gemellol. 13:295-304.
  • Male Swedes 2.95%, Romanus, T. (1949) Heredity of a long second toe. Hereditas 35: 651-652, 1949.
  • male Ainu 90% Kaplan?

Pete.Hurd 02:39, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks (and also for the preceding comment). The overall figure of 10% comes from the Kirkup reference. Tearlach 10:25, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Inbreeding?

Folklore suggests that one with Morton's toe has inbread relations in their family

Source? Tearlach 10:54, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's congenital, rare, and based on a recessive gene, so while not proof of incest, it may certainly be considered as a strong hint.--Cancun771 12:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] On one foot or two?

I have this on only one foot, though you'd have to look closely to notice. On my right foot, the second toe is ever so slightly longer than the big toe; on the other foot, it's distinctly shorter. I didn't even notice this myself until a couple of years ago. How common is this compared to having it on both feet? - furrykef (Talk at me) 07:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

You sure you haven't broken one of the toes in question at some point? This isn't necessarily noticed; it hurts but people who don't suspect a fracture tend not to visit a doctor. The healing process might than have influenced toe length.--Cancun771 17:00, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unsoucred claims

I've moved some unsourced claims here from the main article

  • Cleopatra was known to have this, and many consider this trait to be a sign of beauty.
  • Podiatrist/archaeologist Phyllis Jackson has interpreted it as a characteristically Celtic toe, as opposed to a Saxon toe.
  • The French call it ... believing it to be a sign of intelligence.
  • There is also a belief in cultures (such as in Brazil) that women who have a bigger second toe, means that they are authoritarian. It is believed that when the women marries then she is going to boss her husband.

and look forward to someone turning up some reliable sources. Pete.Hurd 05:23, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Celtic toes again

I've removed the celtic toe thing again. No WP:RS sources are provided to support this terminology. I note that the Discover article clearly states that the Celtic feet had D2 almost equal in extent, but still shorter than D1. Also I sources above (here) show that D2 > D1 is clearly present in populations, e.g. rural India, that refute the assertion that this trait indicates Celtic heritage. Pete.Hurd (talk) 04:16, 2 February 2008 (UTC)