Talk:Morrissey/Archive 1

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Contents

Location of Stretford

Stretford is not in the county of Lancashire it is in the county of Greater Manchester: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stretford —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tremello22 (talk • contribs)

Not in 1959, which is the time referred to in the introduction. --ajn (talk) 21:37, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

Morrisseymusic.com

Why is Morrisseymusic.com listed as morrissey's official website? Didn't Morrissey say, "Thirdly, I have no connection at all with the site called Morrisseymusic.com. It is controlled by Sanctuary and I am neither consulted nor involved."--199.176.241.60 13:39, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

It's controlled by Sanctuary but that was considered his official site. http://www.true-to-you.net/ is the site Morrissey uses communicate with fans, that's more like his offical site. Englishrose 14:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Should it be changed, thus?--24.15.165.14 23:45, 9 February 2007 (UTC)


Relationships

Does anyone know if Morrissey actually entered into any romantic relationships of any merit? There have been some speculations, both of a hetro and homosexual nature, but I was just wondering if there is any evidence to back up any of these claims?

No evidence exists either way. Morrissey is tight-lipped on the subject of his private life, and rightly so, I might add -- what he does is no one's business (this idea goes without saying), and whatever he did say would unquestionably be twisted, dissected, and ultimately corrupted by the media, and, I daresay, interpreted in various opposing ways by much of his longtime, über-devoted fanbase. Weavermoz 02:49, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

Morrissey had a close companion called Jake Walters circa 1993-5. It was widely rumoured the pair were romantically involved, but once again never confirmed or denied (Jake's hands appear on the back of the Vauxhall and I album). Whether true or not, this is the closest to a "public relationship" Morrissey has ever had.

Morrissey was romantically linked to a certain Lee Farrant during the mid 1980s, and they were often seen arm in arm frequenting various south London boutiques.

Lee Farrant?? Never heard of that name, and I've heard a great deal of Moz-related gossip LOL In any case, a wonderfully androgynous name, 'Lee'. Could be male, could be female (what a perfect Moz gossip ;) ).Nightandday 12:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Jake Walters (who was also Morrissey's personal assistant circa 1994-1995) has denied that he was romantically involved with Morrissey. He was quoted in the infamous Dave Simpson 1998 Uncut article, and he claimed that Morrissey and he were friends and shared a flat for some time (until 1995), and that, even though they weren't that close anymore, they still heard from each other from time to time. (BTW, he also called Morrissey 'the most interesting and fascinating character I've ever met.) (http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/interviews/1998/uncut.htm) It's true that Morrissey didn't confirm or deny it, but then, he was never asked about it in an interview, to the best of my knowledge.

To make things clear: Morrissey has admitted to having been in love, having had relationships, or having had sexual encounters - he just never named anyone. It's certain that in his pre-Smiths days (as a teenager/early 20s) he had some failed relationships and sexual encounters that he described as mostly bad. He has said that he lost his virginity at the age of 12 or 13, and that a series of bad experiences made him decide to abstain from sex. In 1992 interview he mentioned matter-of-factly that he had slept with women and had a 'physical encounter' with a man 10 years before. (source: http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/interviews/1992/observer.htm) There's also Johnny Marr's explanation (Record Mirror, 1984): "Morrissey doesn't participate in sex and hasn't done so in a while, he's had a lot of girlfriends in the past and quite a few men friends." Morrissey also once made an off-remark once about a 'girl I once had a relationship with'... (quoted in the book "Morrissey In Quotes")

Finally, in a 1997 interview in The Guardian (source: http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/interviews/1997/affair.htm) he said that he had had a relationship with someone during the previous two years (that would mean around 1995-97), which had ended 'recently' (as the article said). He didn't say anything about who the person was. He has also said several times in recent years that he hasn't been celibate for years. Now, how many other 'relationships of merit' he has had, and who with - I don't know.

And yes, there are tons of rumours about men or women who were supposedly involved with Morrissey at some point. Some of these rumours have absolutely no foundation (e.g. the rumour about him and Michael Stipe, which Morrissey has strongly denied, only started because people misread an interview of his to mean that the song 'Found, Found, Found' was about Stipe, which he actually never said), in other cases there might be some truth to it, but there is no definite proof. The only exception, as far as I know, is a a remark in a letter to one of his pen-pals (1980-1981): "Will you send me some pornography? Do you have a girlfriend? Do you like girls? I have a girlfriend called Annalisa. We're both bisexual. Real hip, uh? I hate sex." source: http://www.torr.org/moz/letters.htm He was very probably referring to a certain Annalisa Jablonska, who contributed the vocals to 'Pretty Girls Make Graves' and 'Suffer Little Children' (described by Marr as 'Morrissey's friend Anna'). Also, in his book "Morrissey and Marr: The Severed Alliance", Johnny Rogan mentions a black girl called Marcia that Morrissey "had a brief fling with" when he was 18, but I don't know if he has any proof that she was actually his girlfriend rather than just a friend.

There was also speculation about his relationship with (his life-long friend, artist and former Ludus singer) Linder Sterling, particularly about the time in early 80s when he supposedly shared the flat in Whalley Range with her and Ludus guitarist Ian Devine, or at least was a very regular visitor to the place (there are conflicting rumours on the matter). Nick Kent first made the assumption about Morrissey's and Linder's alleged previous relationship and speculated about the Smiths songs that might have been written about her, in his detailed 1985 article on The Smiths' past in The Face http://foreverill.com/interviews/1985/dreamer.htm (which angered Morrissey very much and resulted in Kent being banned from The Smiths camp). It is also discussed in a few entries in Simon Goddard's book "Songs That Saved Your Life". It's never been confirmed or denied; Morrissey has never been publicly asked about it, as far as I know; Linder has, in a recent interview (September 2006): "You've worked a lot with Morrissey, there's rumours you've been lovers..." - her only comment on this remark was "There's lots of gossip." http://www.gogoparis.com/gogogo/?q=taxonomy/term/348

Other people who have been rumoured to have been involved with Morrissey include his recent (male) manager, his (female) personal assistant around 2004, a male fan around the same time, an unnamed girlfriend circa 2002/2003 (could be the same one as the female PA, or not), his former press guy, a female fan called Wendy he used to be friends with...and so on. You get the idea. Basically, anyone who ever was seen in public with him or is known to have spent any significant time in his company is a suspect. :D I have absolutely no idea if any of those rumours were somehow founded, or if they were complete rubbish.

I hope this has answered your question in a satisfactory way... I can't help you any more than this. His life is largely still a mystery. I'm sorry if this post is too gossipy, I'm not usually like that. ;) I like the fact that he prefers to keep his private life private. I hate it when celebrities talk about their love affairs in gossip magazines etc. Nightandday 12:13, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


When we talk about Morrissey having publicly declared his celibacy, what exactly do we mean? That is, are we talking about sex or marriage?

Sex. He said he didn't have sexual relationships - however, that was in the Smiths days, a lot has changed since then. He has since made it clear several times that he is fed up with the 'celibacy' tag ("I used the word 'celibacy' once, in August 1984, and it has haunted me eversince"). As for marriage, he had always been generally against it.Nightandday 16:52, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

A full transcript of the interview where Johnny Marr claims that Morrissey had a bisexual past but at the time of the interview was asexual can be read online here: http://www.cemetrygates.com/vault/smiths/record.html --216.162.194.156 06:15, 12 January 2007 (UTC)


Opening sentence

The article for "The Smiths" reads '(...)rock group(...)' while this one reads '(...)pop band(...)'. I think it's advisable to mantain the same major music genre between these related articles... after all it's the very same encyclopedia.


Animal rights

Is there such a thing as an ethical vegetarian. Ifr so ios he one. SDources only please. I dispute strongly that his latest views have divided the country. That would imply a huge num ber of Brits supported his stance which is clearly false. Please don't insert POPV as fact. The reality is almost everyone thinks he is an extremist whose dangerous POV verges on the criminal, if it isn'tt criminal. Classical example of an uppity pop star who knows how to sing and uses that talent to try and promote political extremism, SqueakBox 16:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Also the justification of his use of the Union flag based on things that happened years later comes across as trying to disprove the fascist roots of Morrissey, and has been removed as such, SqueakBox 16:23, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

You don't like Morrissey, do you? I don't agree with everything you've said here, but I don't have any major problems with the edits you made. I just added an explanation of why Morrissey says he's a vegetarian and a source for some of the criticism he's been getting. - Maximusveritas 17:32, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't like his politics but I used to love The Smiths. But he seems from his actions and words to have become right-wing in the nasty, intolerant motivated by hate sense of the word, and I think about as much of violent animal extremists as I do of Islamic terrorists, ie they make the governemnt batten the hatch down, justifying all sorts of reactionary measures that take away from everyone's freedom because of the actions of a tiny, extremist minority, all very pseudo-radical and unhelpful towards the greater goal of a better, freer world for both humans and animals. I do feel there was some POV pushing in the article as it was, and indeed I haven't actually gone through the whole lot in the editing sense. Your further edits to my edits look great. Anyway I cam to the article reading this article on him, SqueakBox 18:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Animal rights are 'right-wing'?! You have no idea what 'right-wing' means, do you? Please abstain from making any further comments on politics, until you gain some knowledge on the subject. And BTW, Morrissey's views on animal rights, like them or not, have been the same when he was in the Smiths. Nightandday 17:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Somebody wrote "Morrissey is currenly a vegan" but did not provide any source for that claim. Morrissey never said anything about being vegan, he never campaigned against the use of dairy or eggs for food, and in his recent interview on the Russell Brand show he said he doesn't consider himself a vegetarian, "I just don't eat meat". Therefore I've removed that piece of information which seems obviously wrong. 212.200.209.73


Racism

Was there anything that prompted the accusation of racism more than performing in the Union Flag? This objectively looks nationalistic, not racist! David.Monniaux 12:04, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm no expert but some read into Morrissey's lyrics that he was racist - "hang the DJ" in "Panic. Apparantly at the time most DJ's were black. A bit tenious i know but some apparantly really do believe it. His comments such as "black people and white people will never really get on or like each other" didnt help either. Hopefully someone with more knowledge can shed a bit of light on it.--195.188.152.14 01:12, 22 May 2004 (UTC)

Where did you hear that most DJs were black?! I highly doubt that. Especially not BBC radio DJs such as Steve Wright. as for the "black people and white people will never really get on with each other" comment, he made it in an interview to a French magazine where he also said, in the same sentence, that the British and the French will never get along... Someone could have accused him of being anti-French. Just another example of typical Moz pessimism (you could accuse him of misanthropy based on many of his statements to the effect that relationships never work, people are born to live and die alone, etc.), but in the context of 1992, shortly after NME-fueled accusations, it only shows you Morrissey's stubborn refusal to defend himself and his habit of digging a deeper hole for himself instead... Nightandday 16:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Just by way of clarification here, the DJ Morrissey was referring to in the song Panic was the white Radio One's Steve Wright, who in-between launching a series of flop novelty records (eg. The Gay Cabrilerros) used his show to sneer at every other music act he did not like. Both The Smiths & Echo & The Bunnymen were regular targets for being "depressing" and "boring", but Wright went very quiet about The Smiths after Panic. He'd previously been debarred from future BBC run "awards" ceremonies after going on stage during one in January 1985 & uttering a series of caustic remarks about a number of acts Mark_Boyle 21:07, 31 Oct 2006 (UTC)


I think Morrissey's statements were more against genres of music rather than races of people. At the hight of this allegation, Morrissey was seen draped in the Union Flag - something at the time which was uncommon but now, since the Spice Girls' appearance a normality. Ironically, Morrissey also said that "reggae is vile" and his latest contract is with a vile record label. Kabads


Officially, "Panic" was written after a DJ named Steve Wright aired a "futile" Wham! music after a Chernobyl newscast. WolfenSilva
I think the accusations of racism stem from songs like "Bengali in Platforms" and "Asian Rut", and lyrics like "England for the English". I don't actually think Morrissey is being racist-- a lot of this "evidence", and most of his songs, consist of hyperbole, archetype and metaphor. MisterSheik
For Asian Rut and National Front Disco is simply the narrator. In fact, I feel that the song Asian Rut is anti-racist with lyrics such as "Oh, English boys, It must be wrong, Three against one?". I personally think Asian Rut is about desiring humanity based on lyrics such as "(I'm) On my way to somewhere civilised and maybe I'll even arrive". As for National Front Disco, yeah I can see why it is racist BUT Morrissey is describing the events of somebody losing their son to the NF. He does not endorse it. Thus to say that song is racist is absurd. "Bengali in Platforms" isn't racist either. It's more of a celebration of being different and not having to fit in. Morrissey writes this in third person and he is concerned that the subject might "hate" him; it shows affection rather than hatred. In a documentary Morrissey said, "why would I be racist? What would I be trying to achieve?" Don't forget Morrissey is also very positive about his Latino fan-base, which contradicts that he's racist. Englishrose 14:22, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it is absurd to call Asian Rut and National Front Disco racist - in fact, I would say that both are anti-racist songs. I won't even comment on the flag, and as for the skinheads, since this is Wikipedia, why don't people just read the Wiki article on the skinhead subculture! Anyone with even a slight knowledge about the matter should know that only some parts of skinhead subculure hold neo-nazi and racist views (however, they have most media exposure). Original skinheads weren't political, and even now many skinheads aren't political, and there is a significant number of left-wing oriented skinheads, and there are a lot of anti-racist skinheads, who have formed organizations such as SHARP (Skinheads Against Racial Prejudice) and Anti-Racist Action. For instance, oi-punk band Angelic Upstarts (a band Morrissey likes and plays their songs as warmup tracks for his gigs, BTW) are considered a part of the skinhead scene, and they are very ardently left-wing and anti-racist. Besides, if Morrissey was prejudiced against Asians, how come he was a supporter of the band Echobelly in the mid-90s and very good friend of its singer Sonya Aurora Madan (who is of Indian descent)? I read an article where sais she was overjoyed when Morrissey, her idol, was quoting to her her lyrics about being a Asian British woman - 'we are dreamers, a nightmare apart'. And Morrissey is also a fan of Maya Angelou. Hardly seems like a big old Nazi, does he?! Nightandday 16:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Initial racism accusations definitely date from the time of "Panic"'s release - they were based, as I recall, on the lyrics to "Panic" which go "Burn down the disco/Hang the blessed DJ/Because the music that they constantly play/It says nothing to me about my life" (an interpretation that implicitly assumes "disco" - the building and the musical form - must always correspond to "non-white music", which is an interpretation that appears to be at best arguable, at worst hopelessly simplistic - as indicated, for example, by Johnny Marr at the time, who pointed out in NME that New Order had no black members, and yet created great disco music); but the accusations were also based on a contemporaneous Morrissey quote that stated "all reggae is vile". I seem to recall (from memory only) that it was the NME of the 1985/86 period that primarily saw this professed musical taste (or lack thereof) as inherently racist. Dave12345 22:06, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

Actually, it was not NME, it was Melody Maker that accused Morrissey of racism in that case) in 1985/86. NME was very pro-Morrissey at that time, Melody Maker was the opposite. Their conlucsion that "Panic" was anti-black must be one of the dumbest ever, even stupider than the NME 1992 campaign. Since when is disco an exclusively black genre, and more importantly, since when is disco genre identified with black culture in general?! If anyone was being racist, it was the Melody Maker writer who concluded that dislike of disco equals dislike of black people. (This would mean that disco and black people are the same?! excuse me??! Hasn't he ever heard of a number of other music genres that black artists have excelled in?!) Interestingly, nobody ever mentions that both Morrissey and Marr are huge fans of classic Tamla Motown (and Motown-sounding) soul artists, particularly girl groups (most of them all-black) like Martha & the Vandellas, The Marvelettes, The Cookies, The Velvelettes, etc. In fact, Morrissey was talking about his love for Motown in the same Melody Maker interview where he dissed Stevie Wonder and Diana Ross (which, miraculously, served as a proof of his 'racism'). As for the infamous 'reggae is vile' comment, disliking reggae would still not make you racist, but I don't think Morrissey really dislikes it. He has said since that it was just a tongue-in-cheek remark intended to wind up the music writers. And ironically, one of his all time favourite records is "Young, Gifted and Black" by Bob & Marcia (two reggae artists from Jamaica who covered the Nina Simone song). Anyone with half a brain should have realized that 'Panic' was aimed mainly against the escapistic/hedonistic 80s bland pop (Wham!, Duran Duran, etc.) and other music (such as disco) that didn't address real life issues, and against BBC DJs like Wright who were constantly playing it, while ignoring bands such as The Smiths. Nightandday 16:45, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The writer appologizes for Moz' racism stating that Moz had a black friend. I do not believe that one makes up for the other: racism is racism, it is an absolute flaw of a person be it antipathy for one group or several groups of people. Diegueno 15:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

I don't think the writer 'appologizes for Moz' racism', because there is nothing to appologize for. There was never any proof that Morrissey was racist, and plenty of evidence to the contrary. I can't believe this is still being debated, let alone that some people, like you, would matter-of-factly state 'Moz is racist'. The writer of the article is wrong though, the NME writers who accused Morrissey of racism (and who are now trying to excuse themselves by saying that they only wanted to 'put a question') didn't base it on Johnny Rogan's book (I doubt that they had even read it by that point), but entirely on the misinterpreted lyrics to 'Asian Rut', 'National Front Disco' and 'Bengali in Platforms' ('We'll Let You Know' was also mentioned, ironically as an example of nationalism... I say 'ironically' because we're talking about the NME!) and the Finsbury Park 'incident' (which doesn't even look like much of an incident to me, based on the video recording of the event). Furthermore, the article gives the wrong impression that Rogan accused Morrissey of racism, or made him look racist in his book, and that is not the case. In a paragraph about the development of Morrissey's liberal ideas, Rogan mentions his interest in the 'plight of black people' and his reading of books such as "Sex and Racism in America" and "The Diary of a Harlem Schoolteacher". He mentions the remark about the Pakistani - which is just something taken from Morrissey's teenage diary - as an incongruity, but remarks that Morrissey was even then aware that his only problem with Pakistanis was his lack of knowledge about their culture. Rogan also stated that Morrissey had progressed a lot since - naming 'Asian Rut' as an example (and quite rightly so)! If the only proof of Morrissey's 'racism' is a flippant remark he wrote in his diary as a teenager, well... I wonder how anybody else would fare, if people starting quoting silly things they wrote in their diaries or said in the schoolyard to their mate when they were 18!Nightandday 15:51, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Somebody needs to cite a lot of the quotes concerning this issue, such as the "thrilled that many of his new fans were skinheads," because I can't find a citation of that anywhere.


--- Actually Morrissey if not racist he was certainly a xenophobe in the late 80s and early 90s. A proof of that is the song "Bengali in Platform" The lyrics go like this: "No no no he does not want to depress you oh no no no no no he only wants to impress you Bengali in platform he only wants to embrace your culture and to be your friend forever Bengali, Bengali oh shelve your Western plans and understand that life is hard enough when you belong here" Also, consider "The National Front Disco" and "We'll Let You Know". Check this link - http://motorcycleaupairboy.com/interviews/1992/caucasian.htm it is an examination of his thoughts of race and nationality. I'm a fan of his and I believe earlier in his career he certainly had racists attitudes which has since disappeared. He signed the anti-fascist UAF statement and he rejected a request from Nancy Sinatra to issue a single with a cover version of "Bengali in Platforms". (This can be found on various articles around Wikipedia related to Morrissey) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.252.226.134 (talk) 17:38, August 27, 2007 (UTC)


Racism pt II

I removed the speculative and unfounded nonsense that he was a big supporter of various ant-racist organizations, because there is zero evidence that he was/is. Also since when was the Labour Party a "anti-racist movement"??. Also to the contrary "Mozza" has been more of a supporter of the racist British National Party than any other U.K. political party. Stop trying to sugar coat the guy FFS.

Sorry?!?! You are the one writing speculative and unfounded, and, furthermore, completely untrue nonsense. Morrissey a supporter of BNP?! What planet are you from?! (And yes, there is proof, The Smiths played anti-Apartheid gigs.) Nightandday 17:26, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
I have no interest in claiming Morrissey as a Labourite, but The Smiths were part of Red Wedge in the 80's, which was very closely linked to Labour. They also played at least one 'Rock vs Racism' benefit gig.

"Where is the evidence that Moz supported the BNP? In iterviews he has stated his opposition to censorship and that includes the BNP. Morrissey has always supported left-leaning, liberal causes e.g John Kerry for president, and been anti-right leaning, establishment figures, e.g Margaret Thatcher and the Queen." Ask me 22:04, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Many people support liberal causes and are still racist.


Ok ok ok...From what i have gathered on this discussion board...there are some people who dislike morrissey the person and want to paint him in a negative light. They claim other people are suger coating morrissey which isn't true. the Racism allegations are false and have been explained by many why they are false. Morrissey himself said he is not a racist. The problem is he speaks his mind and isn't neccessary PC and careful to make sure journalists can't twist his words against him. For example, didn't he once state that there is a problem with immigration when you allow people to freely come in a country. Many people took this as racism. He then had to go back and point out that he simply meant that the resources are not there and both local communities and the immigrants themselves are screwed. Which is true. It makes sense and there is no racism. For those who do not like Morrissey and his politics, stop trying to paint him a a negative light on his wikipedia page. It's a difference of beliefs. His recent animal militia comments were also overblown. Yes morrissey supports them. but his value on animal lives is not understood by those who do not value animal lives. He sees the life of animals as equal to humans. Thus the humans are already murdering the animals. One being killing another being--both equal to each other. Get over it. It's for sure not right-wing. It's not radical in his eyes as well as too many. Both are violent acts as Morrissey stated. His point was to point out that both are violent acts. THAT's THE POINT!!! Should I repeat myself.

"I have no interest in claiming Morrissey as a Labourite, but The Smiths were part of Red Wedge in the 80's, which was very closely linked to Labour."

Yes but the point was made in the article that he can't be racist because he is a Labour supporter. That's what doesnt make sense. Again what has Labour got to do with fighting racism? One could say the same about the Tories or Lib Dem if that were the case.

"They also played at least one 'Rock vs Racism' benefit gig."

Couldnt find a single story on them playing any RAR gig.

I have removed the false, and indeed libellous allegations that Morrissey supported the NF/BNP at any point, and I am reinstating the fact of Morrissey's support for the Labour Party (an explicitly anti-racist organisation, please check its constitution, history etc), Anti-Apartheid, Amnesty International, Unite Against Fascism et al. Sources and references will follow.

For starters, here is proof of Morrissey's 2004 statement of support for Unite Against Fascism, a militantly anti-NF/BNP camapign.

http://www.uaf.org.uk/aboutUAF.asp?choice=4

And here's his support of the explicitly anti-racist Amnesty International

http://www.nndb.com/org/761/000051608/

And while they may not have played an actual RAR gig they did play an anti=apartheid benefit as mentioned here

http://www.visi.com/fall/gigography/gig86.html

here

http://hurryupharry.bloghouse.net/archives/2005/12/21/do_as_i_say.php

and here

http://foreverill.com/interviews/1987/thorn.htm

Find someone else to smear Mr BNP supporter/Morrissey hater/both. FFS.

-JG 23.41 29.3.06
      • Well done! a comprehensive set of links that will (hopefully) finally stop the accusations that Morrissey is in any way a racist. Ask me


I've added lyrics from "Irish Blood English Heart" which I think are more pertinent to this topic than those already posted from "You Are The Quarry".

Miscellaneous

The item that begins "In retaliation to the above-mentioned statement, a contradictory statement, purportedly made by Morrissey..." and continues to quote at length a statement from Morrissey taken off www.true-to-you.net is likely out of the bounds of "fair use" and likely copyright infringement. Even if it is not, I have no idea why such a long and barely newsworthy statement is on what's supposed to be an encyclopedia page.--MrFluff 05:44, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

I removed the item on the Curse of Morrissey. Feel free to re-add if this can be proven to be a common term (hardly registers on google outside of this Wiki-page).

Should the quote from Moz about voting against GWB be removed? It's already on WikiQuote, and this page is getting out of control.--MrFluff 05:53, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

The last couple of sentences in the 'Sexuality' section didn't read well. I've changed the punctuation a bit.


Moz

This is a name people use to refer to Steven Patrick Morrissey. He is more commonly known as Morrissey. He was the lead singer in The Smiths, and later went on to a solo career. why??????

Thank you very much for sharing these pearls of wisdom with us all, thank God we can sleep easy tonight.

It isn't just an alias, it's a symbol for those who will carry the sometimes painful wheight of the unshared pashion for his work, life and everlasting beauty. MOZZ4Ever


Feud with Robert Smith?

Can anybody elaborate about the 'lifelong' feud between Morrissey and The Cure's Robert Smith?

The whole thing started due to some fairly inocuous comments made by Robert Smith about the Smiths. While he professed an admiration for the Smiths, he added the comment "Morrissey’s so depressing, if he doesn’t kill himself soon, I probably will," which was probably meant in jest, after all, no-one is more aware of Morrissey's miserablist tendancies than Morrissey himself. However, Morrissey responded with typical vitriol, claiming the Cure were 'A new dimension to the word "crap"' Robert Smith then responded with probably the most memorable line of the feud, saying '"If Morrissey says not to eat meat, then I’m going to eat meat; that’s how much I hate Morrissey." This was probably the high point of the feud, most music hacks regard it as an irrelevance now, although Smith and Morrissey continue to lampoon each other in the press, despite the fact that no-one seems to care. Perhaps this is indicative of a genuine feud rather than just a sales-boosting one. SilhouetteSaloon
They actually stopped lampooning each other long ago. Morrissey even said (I think it was in 1997) that Smith was a 'nice person', and that Smith had invited him to his son's birthday. Morrissey also said in an interview this year that people wrongly assume he dislikes Smith, he has respect for anyone who cuts quite an original figure in music (or something to that effect). Nightandday 16:48, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
(Uh, Robert doesn't actually have a son, so it must have been something else. ;)) 136.186.1.199 05:53, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I don't really remember what it was, I only paid attention to the info that there was no feud anymore. Anyway, whatever Robert might have invited him too, I doubt that Morrisey actually went. ;) 212.200.209.73


Pistols concert

I don't think Morrissey was at the concert. He may have said he was there, jokingly, as it a known that more people claim to have been there than was actually present. - Kvaks 20:19, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

What on Earth made you think that?! Everyone agrees that Morrissey definitely was at the Pistols concert on June 4 1976, including Paul Morley and Dave Nolan, the author of the book about the gig, "I Swear I Was There" (both were present at the gig). He's actually one of the few people whose presence isn't a matter of controversy. Even Tony Wilson's presence has been called into question by Nolan, and Mick Hucknall, according to him, was definitely not there, contrary to the legend.Nightandday 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Why do you think Morrissey was not present...? Certainly the documented evidence is out there (search on http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=morrissey+%22free+trade+hall%22+pistols&hl=en&lr=&start=10&sa=N for numerous references).

Update: The young Morrissey wrote the following letter to the NME, after attending the gig:

18 June 1976 - NME (UK) Review by Steven Morrissey of a Sex Pistols concert: "I pen this epistle after witnessing the infamous Sex Pistols in concert at the Manchester Lesser Free Trade Hall. The bumptious Pistols in jumble sale attire had those few that attended dancing in the aisles despite their discordant music and barely audible lyrics. The Pistols boast having no inspiration from the New York / Manhattan rock scene, yet their set includes, "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone", a number believed to be done almost to perfection by the Heartbreakers on any sleazy New York night and the Pistols' vocalist / exhibitionist Johnny Rotten's attitude and self-asserted 'love us or leave us' approach can be compared to both Iggy Pop and David JoHansen in their heyday. The Sex Pistols are very New York and it's nice to see that the British have produced a band capable of producing atmosphere created by The New York Dolls and their many imitators, even though it may be too late. I'd love to see the Pistols make it. Maybe they will be able to afford some clothes which don't look as though they've been slept in."

source: http://www.passionsjustlikemine.com/moz-mb.htm

In addition, he also wrote a letter to Melody Maker: "I think that their audacious lyrics and discordant music will not hold their heads above water when their followers tire of torn jumpers and safety pins." source: Johnny Rogan, "Morrissey and Marr: The Severed Alliance", 1993, p. 82Nightandday 17:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

including those touched by his music. Ask me


Anti Rock Star Image

Strange section this, and not entirely accurate. Morrissey certainly has had brushes with the law (police raiding his house following the Margaret on the Guillotine lyrics), dealing with alcohol and drug abuse (albeit band members habits rather than his own) for example.

I agree, the entire section is highly debatable and confusing. There are plenty of examples of reclusive rock stars and Morrissey's ongoing feuds with the media, other musicians, etc is very rock star-ish. Also, unflamboyant is not a word. Morrissey is often characterized as flamboyant anyway (google: "Morrissey flamboyant" and see for yourself). Basically, this whole section is bogus and should be removed.--MrFluff 04:36, 13 December 2005 (UTC)


Recent changes

An anon ip recently changed "He is 6' (1.83 m) tall." to "His height is between 5'6" and 6'.", and changed "The song Let Me Kiss You from Morrissey's latest album You Are the Quarry is dedicated to her." to "The song Let Me Kiss You was recorded by Nancy with Morrissey and Alain Whyte singing background vocals.". Does anyone know if these changes are valid? Arniep 00:07, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

"Between 5'6" and 6'"?! LOL Someone was in a joking mood, obviously. He is 6' (or, according to some, a little under 6'.) Nightandday 17:56, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"The song Let Me Kiss You was recorded by Nancy with Morrissey and Alain Whyte singing background vocals.". That certainly is true, Nancy release the same song on the same day Morrissey did. Englishrose 14:27, 16 January 2006 (UTC)



-Source analysis=

Michael Stipe article doesn't contain the word admire, neither does the Doherty article. Indeed none of the 7 links contain the word admire so we stil need a source that for each one of these people admiring him, SqueakBox 14:52, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

  • I've changed the word to fan, but one of the ways to define the word fan is "3: an ardent follower and admirer", Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University. Englishrose 17:28, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I think the point is that the list just looks stupid because it's too long. We should limit it to a few people accompanied by whatever it is they said about him. Arniep 18:36, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
What about a seperate page, "List of notable Morrissey fans"?Englishrose 20:50, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
In that case why not make a separate page for fans of every band/musician to ever come into existence? It's a pointless section and doesn't deserve to be in there. Groups who point to Morrissey as a direct influence on their work is a different story, but does it really matter that Craig Kilborn or JK Rowling are fans of Morrissey's music? Spikethehawk 21:10, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
JK Rowling requested that Smiths/Morrissey references were placed on the set of the Harry Potter films. She get's a lot of inspiration from Morrissey. [1]. Englishrose 23:09, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
I think with the change to fans it looks alright. I, for instance am a fan of his Smith vocals (all I have heard) but that doesn't mean I admire him as a person let alone make me an ardent follower of his political beliefs. The statement as it stands is accurate without trying to be sycophantic, SqueakBox 00:41, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Colin Meloy recorded a tribute album of Morrissey covers.

Jesse Lacey-

He is the lead singer of Brand New. In their song, "Mixed Tape" they sings, "I'm sick of your tattoos and the way you always criticize the Smiths and Morrisey."

Manic Street Preachers' attack on Moz

To the feud's section I added a bit about the comments made about Morrissey by Manic Street Preachers' Nicky Wire and Richey James Edwards. -Did you source it? To tell the truth, me and my sis always argue who is etter, Richey or Moz. I always win ;). But seriously, I didn't know they actually fought.-- ¢² Connor K.   18:36, 11 November 2006 (UTC)


Latino Fanbase

Excuse me if this has already been mentioned, but an in-depth exploration of Morrissey's Latino -- particularly Mexican -- fanbase is urgently necessary. The Latino/Morrissey phenomenon warrants a documentary (Is It Really So Strange?) but not a mention on Wikipedia? What would Esteban say?


Richard Edwards

I have removed the following sentence: "A few months later Richard Edwards disappeared. Many people have speculated that he commited suicide but no body has ever been found and officially he is recorded as being a missing person."

It's quite off topic, in this context it actually seems to suggest that Moz is responsible of Edwards' disappearance. cheers, ArchStanton

Removal of Smiths refrences

Why in the world is everyone doing this? This is a biography of Morrissey - so why is everyone removing parts that have to do with The Smiths? The entire Smiths biography shouldn't be in here, mind you, but his time with them should be summarised in a bit more detail, and things about him in other sections that happened while he was with the Smiths shouldn't be removed.

Also, there is an urgant need to expand the section about his solo career, which is dreadfully short. There is much much more to be said there.

  • I think you answered your own question. This article should focus on Morrissey's solo career. There is a separate article for The Smiths. Spylab 15:57, 7 January 2007 (UTC)


Singer/songwriter from Manchester

When you are born in a hospital in Davyhulme, partly raised in Hulme and Stretfort are you than a singer and songwriter from Stretford from Hulme or what ??? Is'nt he a singer songwriter from Manchester ???

The debate about Manchester v Trafford is one for the football fans; it shouldn't deflect people from serious research about Morrissey. For the serious students here are the facts: Harper Street and Queens Square were not in Hulme but Old Trafford, bordering Hulme. Morrisey actually refers to this on a link you can find on YouTube. I lived in that area and remember those places, being the same age as Morrissey. People around there think of themselves as being from Manchester; Trafford is a 1970s invention! I can understand Smiths fans not wanting his name associated with famous sporting venues but the idea that he was from Hulme is part of the legend rather than the truth. Anybody obsessive enough to want to check this out (like me!)should get the librarians at the Local History section of Manchester's Central library to dig out the old maps for you. That's what I did as I was sure I remembered those streets - Harper Street at least as I was, like Morrissey, only a nipper when Queens Square was demolished - being in Old Trafford rather than Hulme. Hulme has more hip credibility because it is within the boundaries of the city of Manchester, thereby accrditing Morrissey's Mancunianism; also it is associated, through the old crescents, with the rise of rave culture during the 1980s. Then again this is what we want icons to represent: a romantic idea rather than the dull reality. Morrissey was a myth-maker like Bob Dylan and this has become part of the myth. Or is this inaccuracy more the fault of writers like Johnny Rogan and Dave Haslam who have erroneously stated that he grew up in Hulme?

Mozzer99 18:21, 10 January 2007 (UTC)


reference to "the smiths" in some film

does anyone know the name of the film were the smiths are mentioned...

the film is about guys from some american university were they try to kill there roommate because they know that they will get an automatic high score in their final grade, because thats what you get when your room mate "dies". Thye put some articles in his room including a smiths album because they think it will make him come across as a depressed teen who commited suicide...name? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.219.92.232 (talk) 15:01, 1 February 2007 (UTC).

The 'misc' section

There's a lot of rubbish in there. It could do with being removed. Some of of the little facts are okay and could be incorporated into the main part of the article, while other bits would be most welcome in the bin. SaltyWater 19:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we could probably create a new subsection under "Image and Politics" for all his admirers. I'm not sure if all that stuff is really needed in the article, but at least it would be a little more organized. - Maximusveritas 22:15, 27 March 2006 (UTC)


People that admire Morrissey

Can anybody verify that all these people have publicly admired him? Arniep 03:47, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Laura Bowen, J. K. Rowling, Bono, David Bowie, Kurt Cobain, Chino Moreno, Daryl Palumbo, Michael Stipe, Jeff Buckley, Noel Gallagher, David Byrne, Joel Madden, Martin L. Gore, Pete Doherty, Harry Hill, Craig Kilborn, Thom Yorke, Chris Martin, Jonathan Ross, Douglas Coupland, Liam Gallagher,Michael Ian Black Jesse Lacey, Ryan Adams, Peter Gabriel, Ricky Gervais, JT LeRoy, Pete Doherty, Jack Black, Davey Havok, Matt Skiba, Brandon Flowers, David Cameron, Colin Meloy, Peter Wentz and Kathy Burke have all publicly stated that they admire Morrissey's work.

Bono, Kathy Burke, J. K. Rowling, Noel Gallagher, Liam Gallagher, Harry Hill all priased Morrissey on the Morrissey documentry, "The Importance of Being Morrissey". of the Documentry

Michael Stipe [2] called Morrissey an "inpiration", and appeared in a photo in "Rolling Stone" in the early 90's with his arm draped around Morrissey and holding his hand (there was a rumour that the two were romantically linked - this was before Stipe came out of the closet).

Jonathan Ross said that Morrissey was one of his idols and also made a big fuss about him appearing on his talk show.

Pete Doherty- Morrissey was his hero and when Morrissey criticised him Doherty got very upset. [3]

David Cameron [4]

Brandon Flowers [www.arjanwrites.com/arjanwrites/ 2005/02/the_killers_mys.html] [5] [6].

Kurt Cobain- Mentioned in his biography.

  • I have removed this reference since it was more likely that Kurt was mocking Morrissey (the biography references a "Top of the Pops" performance by Nirvana in which Kurt sang in psuedo-goth baritone voice). Just because someone is aware of a personality does not make them a "fan". More specifically, Dave Grohl, the drummer for Nirvana, has gone on record that the band "hated the Smiths".

Thom Yorke- Stopped eating meat because of Morrissey. [7]

These are just a few, nearly all of these are common knowledge. I've just picked out the ones that I personally know. Englishrose 09:56, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

  • Note: It shouldn't be a shock because The Smiths were voted the most influential band by The Mirror beating the Beatles. They've influenced a lot of musicions, thus Morrissey is bound to have a large amount of famous public admiration. Englishrose 14:01, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

They have certainly not all said they admire him. Cameron, for instance, says he finds the music strangely uplifting. Everyone in that list must be sourced as saying that they greatly admiring Morrisey or the list cannot remain as it is as what it is is a falsification of the truth apparently planted by Morrisey fans which confuses our readers. As for the claim that this is common knowledge, doesn't look like it as 2 people are challenging this alleged common knowledge that is in fact a fantasy in somebody's head. Thisa is a serious encyclopedia and must be treatred as such, where necessary that means sourcing every word, which in this case has clealry not been done, SqueakBox 14:49, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok then. Common knowledge amongst the majority of Morrissey fans, which it is. Seems though your fussy about the word "admire", I've changed it to "fans of". Englishrose 17:22, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Cameron said that The Queen is Dead was his favourite album ever and waxed lyrical about the brilliance of it. If that's not admiring his work I don't know what is. Googling each name listed and "morrissey" is likely to bring up a source. These are just the most public of a large list. Sure, demand sources but don't immediately discount things due to the lack of it. Me677 17:14, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Is it really necessary to make a list of all the people who have publicly stated their admiration of Morrissey? I can't find any other musician or group that has a similar section. It'd be much easier to just leave these out entirely; or, if you think it is necessary put a blanket statement that many entertainers and other notable people appreciate his work, maybe with a few select names dropped in. Spikethehawk 19:34, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
Since Morrissey is a cult artist and out of the mainstream, it's relevant to show his influence on pop culture, particularly since the mainstream majority is unaware of his existence.

"the mainstream majority is unaware of his existence", where did you get such a silly idea from?

Other references:

  • Michael Stipe - appeared in a photo in "Rolling Stone" in the early 90's with his arm draped around Morrissey and holding his hand (there was a rumour that the two were romantically linked - this was before Stipe came out of the closet).
  • Hilary Duff - mentioned Morrissey as one of the artists she "loves" while she was on the podium at the MTV Music Video Awards before she introduced "The Killers" as the next performer. Also told Cosmopolitan magazine in the March 2006 issue that she loves "anything Morrissey" when they asked what were her favorite songs to sing.
  • Fred Durst - wore a "The Smiths" - "Hatful of Hollow" t-shirt twice in public. [8], [9]
  • Kristin Dunst - wore a Smiths t-shirt [10]
  • Iggy Pop - back in the late 80's when Iggy Pop was a guest VJ on MTV, he stated The Smiths were his favorite band and played the video for "There Is A Light That Never Goes Out".
  • Gwen Stefani - wore a customized Smiths "Queen is Dead" t-shirt during an interview with MTV, and No Doubt has cited Morrissey as an influence. [11]
  • Pat Sajak - though famous as the host of "Wheel of Fortune", Sajak also hosted his own late-night talk show on CBS during the late 80's. On one episode, responding to a question from a guest, he said his favorite music was Morrissey, and in particular the "Viva Hate" album.
  • Anthrax - this premiere 80's metal band recorded The Smiths "London" as a b-side to one of their UK singles and which was also featured on the "Airheads" movie soundtrack.
about the unfounded rumour (described by Morrissey recently as 'absolute s**t, I don't know why anyone said that?' about the 'romantic involvement' between Stipe and Morrissey, see my comment in the 'Relationships' section above. Nightandday 17:31, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
* Noel Gallagher talked about his admiration for The Smiths numerous times. He also appeared in the documentary "The Importance of Being Morrissey" and in the NME Smiths special a few years ago.
  • Jeff Buckley was a big Smiths fan, he once said The Smiths were 'the only good thing about the 80s, and he also covered "The Boy With a Thorn In His Side" and "I Know It's Over" live numerous times.
  • Douglas Copeland wrote a novel called "Girlfriend in A Coma", inspired by the Smiths songs. He also wrote a (rather silly) article (which was supposed to be an 'interview'... it turned out to be anything but) about Morrissey in The Guardian this year.
  • David Bowie covered Morrissey's song "I Know It's Gonna Happen Someday" and used to tour with Morrissey in mid-90s. According to a quote from IMDB, he also said that Morrissey is thr greatest British lyricist besides Bryan Ferry.

some others:

  • Courtney Love is a fan of The Smiths, and she played "Girlfriend In A Coma" as one of her favourite music videos when she was a guest on VH1 (or MTV - sorry, my memory doesn't serve me that well - anyway, just google it and I'm sure you'll find the info)
  • Melissa Auf Der Maur named Morrissey as her pick for 'the world's sexiest man' or something like that when she was on some MTV show (again, I don't know when it was, just that it was soem MTV - I think - show, with several celebrities choosing 'sexiest men in the world' or something. (sorry I can't be of more help)
  • Chloe Sevigny is a huge Morrissey fan. She has talked about him in several interviews (just google Chloe Sevigny Morrissey and you'll find plenty of articles about her adoration of Moz).


Greta Garbo

I've never seen it mentioned that 'Morrissey used to live in an apartment owned by Garbo' outside of wikipedia. I think this needs to be deleted unless anyone cares to provide evidence.

In fact, he used to live in a house formerly owned by Clark Gable, not Greta Garbo.Nightandday 17:23, 27 October 2006 (UTC)


Sparks

A request for a peer review of the Sparks article has been made here Wikipedia:Peer review/Sparks (band)/archive2. Since Morrissey is such a fan maybe you would have a look and help it alongKaptKos 19:42, 20 April 2006 (UTC)


Too much focus on later years

Is it me or is there a disproportionate amount of text devoted to Quarry and specifically Tormentors? In the grand scheme of things (i.e. in two weeks when the press stop caring) ROTT is in no way more important, and probably a lot LESS important that Viva Hate. Encyclopaedically speaking.Karlusss 20:22, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Very true. Some of the stuff needs to be moved onto the page for ROTT, the other can just be deleted. SaltyWater 20:53, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Morrissey

I think Morrissey is a great guy and told it like it was back in the 80s, when our Brave Men died.

He should be forgiven and allowed to move on, and not held hostage in this Bush-created world terrorist scam. Brandubh Blathmac 00:28, 30 March 2006 (UTC) This can be seen in the infamous documentary The Impotence of Being Morrissey.

Tori Amos

Perhaps the Tori Amos feud should be moved from the trivia section to the 'feuds within the music industry' section.

Kat 01:50, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


Trivia

Is the trivia section absolutely necessary? It's a horrible mess and makes the article seem a bit amateur-ish. maxcap 18:51, 12 May 2006 (UTC) On second thought, does anyone think it might be a good idea to split this article into one detailing the band, and another on Morrisey as a personality, and his politics etc? maxcap 22:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Where would you want to draw that line, though? There would be a decent amount of cross-over between the pieces. Xinit 00:06, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

I feel that the section showing who are "ans" of "influenced" by Morrissey is quite good as it shows his reach accross the Racial/ Atlantic/ Class/ Genre divides respectivly. It shows how much of a pop culture figure Moz has become and I feel it should be reinstated. (maybe as a link from his main page?) Blu sonic 02:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

I restored it, but, alot of that information could be directly in the article(s) if it was split. Some of it is unnecessary. For example, the stuff that relates more to the Smiths could be added to that page, if it isn't already. maxcap 11:28, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
This trivia section is full of unencyclopedic cruft. We don't need a listing of bands who were fans of The Smiths, or books / songs that were named after their songs. What's worse, the info is totally unorganized. If this information was at all relevant to Morrisey's life, it should be included in the body of the article somewhere. Mangojuicetalk 22:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
Very much agreed. Some minor bits in the Misc section could be incorporated into the main article but the rest is complete bollocks. SaltyWater 23:02, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
I thought the part with the bands/artists showed his reach as an artist seeing as the "fans" were so diverseBlu sonic 03:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I guess my point is, if that's interesting, it should be in the body of the article, not under "trivia", where it's just a collection of random statements. Mangojuicetalk 12:12, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
The whole existence of the trivia section bothers me... these are supposed to be points worthy of being included in an article, but they're not worthy of being called anything but trivia? Develop any points that can be developed, and move them into the body of the article... I'd move to just kill the trivia section completely. Xinit 00:04, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
What about after the document is split? shouldn't it be easier to incorporate the "trivia" into the main boby of text? Some of it is meaningless, Moz liked boxing, (no offence but so what?), Moz Supported Man U (and?) etc. Blu sonic 03:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
There's a lot of rubbish in there. It could do with being removed. Some of of the little facts are okay and could be incorporated into the main part of the article, while other bits would be most welcome in the bin. SaltyWater 22:03, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Trivia cut

I've cut the trivia out. Before replacing anything, it needs to be properly cited and evaluated for being actually about Morrisey, instead of belonging to an article about a song, an article about a book, about The Smiths, etc. Jkelly 01:33, 28 May 2006 (UTC)


The bands that are named after Smiths/Morrissey stuff is obvious, it would be pointless citing them. Its like having to site the statment "the water is wet" IMO. the others are true but i agree citation on this article needs to be doneBlu sonic

References

There's a ton of references to external sites, some of which could be dead; please verify links and change to proper references rather than direct external links. There are quotes, specifically in the feuds section that aren't cited and need to be.

Also, the bibliography needs to be addressed... BY and ABOUT are two different things entirely; they should be split. Listing of the books properly with ISBN, etc would be nice as well. Xinit 00:47, 20 May 2006 (UTC)


Critique in intro

"Detractors usually describe his work as depressing,"

I find my favorite artists "depressing". Can someone find a better reason as to why some people would look at his work negatively? --A Sunshade Lust 23:49, 22 August 2006 (UTC)


"Removal of information"

This morning's edit by Bearcat removed nothing, and improved the prose. Please read carefully before assuming that major alterations are for the worse. --ajn (talk) 19:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Influence in popular culture.

Morrissey appeared as himself under the moniker "The Consumer Monkey" on comedy show "Vic Reeves' Big Night Out". This is just not true. Morrissey was being referred to by Vic and Bob but never appeared as himself. The monkey was a childs toy, not easily confused with a man in his late 20s.

mos side

is he really from mos side. i cant picture him being from there.


Name

Isn't his first name spelled Stephen, not Steven? Outofstep77 00:56, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

No. MFlet1 21:51, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Anyone find that Morrissey's solo albums all sound quite similar?

Especially those from Southpaw Grammar onwards? I'm not using this as a forum; instead I'm wondering if such an opinion can be attributed to a music critic?--h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 00:58, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

If Morrisey really have trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu in his youth it probably wasn't under Renzo Gracie, because he was born in 67. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renzo_Gracie

Now i've never heard of him training Jiu Jitsu before, so could anyone please confirm this fact too? A googlesearch didnt return anything on this fact..

213.114.70.177 06:12, 12 April 2007 (UTC)`

Where is the bit that links from It has been suggested that this article be split into multiple articles accessible from a disambiguation page. (Discuss) ?

I can't find it in here. Don't suppose someone could tell me which paragraph it is please?

Songs with homosexual themes

Presently the article cites "This Charming Man", "Handsome Devil", "Swallow On My Neck", "Hand in Glove", "Roy's Keen" and "Dear God Please Help Me" as songs with homosexual themes. In addition, "Shoplifters of the World Unite," "Pretty Girls Make Graves," and even "Alma Matters" have been interpretted with homosexual themes or indications while not being directly about homosexual longing. "Alma Matters"'s lyrics are pretty broad, but Morrissey has commented that it was about being in touch with one's sexuality (for example, your female side if you're a male). "Shoplifters of the World Unite" is well-known to be critical of the anti-homosexual ammendment, Section 28. "Pretty Girls Make Graves" is moreso about not being attracted to females, rather than about being homosexual ("I'm not the man you think I am"). I'm sure there are more songs that could be brought up, but at the moment none come to mind.



This is a new comment. (the fact you didn't sign yours might create some confusion).

Um, "homosexual themes"? Let m e see... "Hand In Glove"? I've heard that oen mentioned many times - could anyone please explain where is homosexuality mentioned in the lyrics?

"Pretty Girls Make Graves" is not about homosexuality, it's about male sexual inadequacy - if there is any reason stated, it's in "sorrow's native son, he will not smile for anyone"/"rise for anyone" - if I was to make a guess, I would say that this most probably refers to depression. The problem further identified: 'I could have been wild and I could have been free, but nature played this trick on me'... Why would homosexuality stop a man from being wild and free?!

"Alma Matters" - ? Are you referring to the famous line 'in part and in hole' (spelled like that in the lyric sheet)? I see how that might be seen as referring to bisexuality, but don't see how that can be interpreted as 'homosexual', especially considering the most common slang meaning of the word 'hole'??

"Roy's Keen" - meh. I won't even comment on that one.

"Swallow On My Neck" - debatable. 'I don't know why I held out so long for me and you... until he drew a swallow on my neck...' I've seen people go on and on about the 'swallow' thing - yes, it might be an actual (fake) tatoo (he did have a taoo of swallow on his hands) or a lovebite, or both. So he might be referring to a guy giving him a lovebite ('and more') - so what? It's not exactly a secret that Morrissey has had sexual experiences with both men and women, he's admitted that much, he's also said that he'd be with a person he loved and who loved him, no matter if they were male or female. So what is the big deal? (Surprisingly, nobody ever tried to really analyse this song - everybody seems to be speculating who 'he' is, while I would be even more interested to know who is 'you' that he is addressing in the song.)

"Dear God Please Help Me" - well, here's what Morrissey has said about it, when asked: "I don't think homosexuality is mentioned anywhere in the song." (NME intervew) He goes on to comment on the line 'he puts his hand on my knee' saying that 'it's matter of having an interest from someone who is a 'he', which is something you can't help and can't orhestrate...' Make of that what you will. From what I can hear, it's all very ambiguous, as always. there's a line 'he puts his hand on my knee'... and then there's an explicit reference to sex at the end, which may be with the same person or another - because he switches to 'you'... and the line 'Now I'm spreading your legs with mine in between'... hm, well, I would hardly say that it sounds homosexual in itself, would you? I don't know about you, but if I heard someone say that, I wouldn't think: 'oh, oh, this must be about homosexual sex!'

"This Charming Man" describes what can be called a homoerotic situation that the narrator finds himself in - but I never thought that the narrator ('jumped-up pantry boy' is homosexual; I wouldn't be so sure that he even feels any desire, love or real attraction to the man himself - but this is all a matter for discussion, and the song is far too complicated and invites many possible interpretations. (I would point out the references to poverty, insecurity, enjoying someone's attention etc... not to mention the interesting connection to the movie 'Sleuth'.)

" "Shoplifters of the World Unite" is well-known to be critical of the anti-homosexual ammendment, Section 28." So what? Morrissey's views on the subject of alternative sexualities and sexual freedom are well-known (I presume). I don't see how being critical of a conservative amenedment which resticts human rights of people who are homosexual, bisexual, basically in any way sexually different, equates 'oh, the writer of this song must be gay!'

But... "Handsome Devil"?? This one I always found very funny. is it because of the deliberately ambiguous title? Do people assume that 'handsome' must refer to a man? Aren't you aware that it's also used for women (especially those whose beauty is statuesque and striking rather than sweet and tender), and that in 19th century English literature it was quite common to call a good-looking women 'a handsome woman' (example: Jane Austen's novels) - which is something Morrissey must have been aware of? (And moreover, he said once that he knew many women who can be described as handsome' and men who can be decribed as 'pretty'.) Funny how people always go 'oh, this is a gay song!' without thinking much, while in fact... it's far from that. OK, so there's the line 'who will swallow whom'... but with lyrics such as 'let me get my hands on your mammary glands' and 'a boy in the bush is worth two in the hand'? ;) "Homoerotic desire', indeed! LOL That's as 'heteroerotic' as it gets. Do I have to spell it out? You do know what 'mammary glands' are? And that the word bush, besides its literal meaning, also refers to a certain part of female anatomy. :) hint: some other words related to the same organ are 'hole', 'pussy'.

BTW 'flap' can also refer to a part of that organ - still, interestingly, none of the hunters of sexual double entendres in Morrissey's lyrics has ever suggested that "Alsatian Cousin" is heteroerotic, despite the line 'with your tent-flap open wide'. ;) I'm not saying he must have meant anything other than the actual tent-flap, but isn't it interesting that people are always ready to discover any possible 'homoerotic' meanings, but are always blind to the 'heteroerotic' ones (even when they're bloody obvious, as in the quoted lines of Handsome Devil)? I don't see people going on about "Wonderful Woman", "Half A Person", "Disappointed", or any song that explicitly defines the object of affection as female, a 'she' ("I Won't Share You" is one of them ('the note I wrote as she read, she said: Has the Perrier goen ot my head, or is life sick and cruel instead'), yet people seem determined to overlook it and keep insisting it's about... Johnny Marr?! I suppose we should also assume that a song that mentions a 'he' is about a woman?!) Where are the articles listing the shockingly 'heteroetoric' imagery in Morrissey's lyrics and artwork (Alexandra Bastedo on "Rank"?! Diana Dors on "Singles"?!), analysing the possible sordid sexual meanings of Some Girls Are Bigger Than Others, or calling The Public Image a 'coming out' song??? ;)


Yep... that's what I call a DOUBLE STANDARD.

But, if you imagine just for a moment that homosexuality were the norm and heterosexuality was 'alternative sexuality', you'd be doing exactly the above and going on about how 'obviously straight' Morrissey must be...and why doesn't he finally admit it? How long is he going to be in denial/tortured about his heterosexuality? ;)

Come on people...we supposedly live in a liberal society where homosexuality is considered no better or worse than heterosexuality...right? RIIIIIGHT??? :p

Nightandday 10:39, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

The term Bona Drag is old gay slang for "nice outfite" 121.210.29.153 14:07, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Sexuality section

While I'm not sure that such a large portion of the article needs to be devoted to discussing his sexuality, part of his appeal is probably in some way related to his sexual ambiguity, and that deserves some mention. maxcap 15:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

There's no "probably" about it. Sex, sexual ambiguity, and speculation about Morrissey's sexuality have been a big part of his image and mystique since the start. The homoerotic images on record covers, the camp icons, the lyrics - this isn't a case of someone who has kept his sexuality private. Morrissey has made a big deal of his sexuality without making explicit statements about it, and there has accordingly been a lot of speculation in the press about it. Much of his appeal in the early days was to people (straight or gay) who were uncomfortable with conventional notions of sexuality and masculinity. That absolutely needs to be mentioned in the article. --ajn (talk) 17:39, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I hate to read that gay or bisexual celebs mentioned in WIKIPEDIA are always being given "novels" about their sexual preference. Funny! I never read explicit, lengthy "stories" about the sexuality of straight celebrities. Sexual preference is of no importance at all. Who has sex with whom is totally irrelevant for an encyclopedia. --Fromgermany 20:15, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
It is quite clear that many people who have studied Morrissey's music consider that his sexuality has influenced it. As such, it is an encyclopaedic subject. David | Talk 20:19, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Morrisey himself places importance on it by being so coy about it. maxcap 20:23, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
Encyclopedic subject? I wouldn't say so. If it were an encyclopedic subject with encyclopedic relevance then we would have to discuss the sexuality and sexual preference of ALL celebrities, the gay and the straight ones. Like I stated above I think it's rather unfair that gay sexuality is still considered as something which needs extra mentioning. This shows me that gays are still treated as "something alien and unnatural". We must stop regarding homosexualiy as something special. It's as normal and as uninteresting as heterosexuality. Therefore we do not need this extra mentioning at all!!!!! --Fromgermany 20:43, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I've every sympathy with wanting to change society, but it is not our purpose in writing an encyclopaedia. We have to report accurately on society, and in a society in which homosexuality is still largely viewed as unusual, it is still the case that people link homosexuality with other character traits. There are some serious academic studies of Morrissey's music and the effect of his (presumed) homosexuality on it. I don't accept that we should censor these opinions if we happen to disagree with basis on which they were formed. David | Talk 20:47, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
The point is that Morrissey has used his sexuality as part of his art. There's a common myth among fans that because he's never actually said "I'm gay/bisexual/straight", and has claimed to be celibate, that he's some sort of asexual figure, doesn't present any sort of sexual image, and discussion of the subject is out of bounds. It's not that people are interested in his (implied) homosexuality because it's seen as being odd, people are interested precisely because he's spent his entire career strongly implying it without being explicit, and that's what has caused the speculation and discussion. --ajn (talk) 21:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)
I think its encyclopedic in morrisseys case. He has made questions over his sexuality far too strong a part of his image for us not to mention it. horseboy 18:06, 22 July 2006 (UTC)
I agree. It is an intrinsic part of his music and his public image. There are other cases where I don't feel that the artist's sexuality is encyclopedic, for example, Bob Mould. I can appreciate wanting to be completely neutral on the subject of sexuality, but there are times, such as with Morrisey, where the inclusion of it enriches the article rather than cheapening it. --GentlemanGhost 09:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)
Actually, I'd even disagree that it's necessarily non-encylopedic in the case of Bob Mould; while it's true that his music rarely if ever touches on explicit themes of sexuality, I've seen music critics pointing out in some depth that the tension between Mould and Grant Hart toward the end of their sexual relationship significantly informed the creative dynamic of Hüsker Dü's later albums and hastened that band's demise. Bearcat 19:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
a bit off-topic -about Husker Du: Bearcat: Mould and Hart were never in any kind of sexual relationship, at least if you believe them. Bob Mould even laughed it off (at the time when he was already open about his homosexuality) and I don't see why he would need to lie about that. It's time for people to realize that the mere fact that one guy is homosexual, and the other one is bisexual (that's what I think Hart is, but it wouldn't make any difference if he was homosexual either) does NOT mean that they must have had a sexual/romantic relationship. (Just like a hetero man and a hetero woman can work together without getting into a sexual relationship.) To the disappointment of all the lovers of band slash, the tensions in Husker Du had probably more to do with Hart's heroin use... and Hart has also admitted that he was angry at Bob because he (Bob) had 'a wonderful person' who loved him and took care of him for years, yet he never felt grateful (according to Hart), while he (Grant Hart) had a series of relationships which ended because of his touring and not being at home. I don't think Hart would go so far to make up such a story.Nightandday 10:59, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
The admission by Morrissey that he is no longer celibate is meaningless unless the article also mentioned when he said he was. Could someone please add this? Dev920 18:06, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also worth noting that even back in the day when Moz was proclaiming his celibacy, his lyrics never suggested a person who experienced no sexual feelings whatsoever, or one who was happy being celibate — they generally depict a person who has a strong sexual desire, but for a variety of reasons (shyness, difficulty connecting with people sexually and romantically, not being found attractive by potential sex partners, etc.) feels stymied and knocked down and unable to act on that desire, and who experiences profound loneliness because of these barriers. Which is, needless to say, a very different thing than being asexual or celibate-by-choice. FWIW, anyway. Bearcat 19:37, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

well, Bearcat, I can only say that I completely agree with this statement.
Nightandday 11:07, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

"It's not that people are interested in his (implied) homosexuality because it's seen as being odd, people are interested precisely because he's spent his entire career strongly implying it without being explicit, and that's what has caused the speculation and discussion. --ajn (talk) 21:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC) "

Sorry? "Strongly implying it without being explicit"?! Could you please provide examples when he implied, strongly or not, that he was homosexual?? I have read / seen pretty much all of his interviews, and I can only think of statements where he has strongly implied (even explicitly, you might say) that he is NOT homosexual. You might only say that he has implied that he is bisexual, or something between bisexual and asexual. But certainly not homosexual, if that still means (as I presume) that one is attracted to the same sex while not being attracted to the opposite one, or at least that one is more attracted to the same sex than the opposite one. And Morrissey has never said or implied that.
Nightandday10:49, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, I interpret some of his lyrics as implying it. "Keats and Yeats are on your side / While Wilde is on mine," for example. But, of course, that's just my interpretation. It's OR that I wouldn't want put in the article. Regarding recent edits to this section, respectfully, I don't think we can speak for Morrissey. We can certainly quote him if we have a reliable source, but we shouldn't presume to speak for him. Also, we should be wary of putting unsourced rumors about living people into a Wikipedia article. --GentlemanGhost 00:24, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The second paragraph in the sexuality section is so beautifully written its almost unencyclopedic Leopold Stotch 07:30, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Links

That flash video of "Morrissey Dance" is not informative, and does not belong on Wikipedia. Please check the policies on links before adding one. Thanks. -- ¢² Connor K.   17:04, 19 October 2006 (UTC)


Far too POV orientated

The article is far too opinionated for an encyclopedia. The author claims Britain was obsessed with draping pop stars in the Union Flag and Morrissey came to the rescue to take the flag back? This is merely someones interpretation and has no factual basis. The racism accusations are also trivialised and the author even offers an explanation in case we think badly of Morrissey!.

"One song cited by the NME as proof of Morrissey's racism was "Asian Rut" from 1991, which vividly describes the murder of an Asian man by white racists. However, with lines such as "it must be wrong/three against one?" Morrissey appears to be quite obviously sympathising with the victim in the song, not the perpetrators.:"

Yes quite obviously.

This needs a re-write by someone impartial.

Like who...you, for instance?

So... you're trying to say that it's likely that 'it must be wrong/three against one" he it could be interpreted as if he was sympathizing with those who killed the Asian boy?! 212.200.209.73

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