Talk:Mormonism and Judaism

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[edit] older comments

Article Created 7 Aug 2004. As of 16 Apr 2006, there have been 136 Contributers, 60 are IP addresses, 76 are registered Users
Total 7 Aug 2004 to 16 Apr 2006, 924 Edits
Stats from (VChapman 16 APR 2006)

[edit] Jesus

The Mormon doctrine that Jesus is Jehovah (and not God the Father) has a special significance in relation to the Jews and their covenant with Yahweh (or Jesus?). Jonathan Tweet 02:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The Jesus section needs some work; the info is basically fine, but the current text has quite a combative tone. In particular, the lead-in characterizes it as a fallacy that Jews think about Jesus at all. This is non-neutral and somewhat silly. It's true that Jesus does not have a central or large role in Judaism, and perhaps that was all that was meant. But of course Judaism has teachings about Jesus, as the article goes on to describe. I'm reworking it a bit now, feel free to comment on my changes. --Reuben 22:27, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
"of course Judaism has teachings about Jesus"?! By all means, share them with us. FiveRings 00:01, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
My pleasure. There's a Wikipedia article on that subject: Jewish view of Jesus. See also Yeshu, who appears in the Talmud and has traditionally be understood by Jews and Christians as referring to Jesus. Maimonides wrote about him. There are books on the subject [1], articles [2], an FAQ [3], etc., just as there are Christian view of Mohammad or a Muslim view of Buddha. One simple example of a Jewish teaching about Jesus is that Jesus was not the Messiah. I would be happy with a different wording than my version, but I think your edit still comes across as somewhat combative. It's not necessary to repeat the qualification "if such a person even existed," when the very next sentence already makes it clear that many Jews do not believe this. Also, the comment about a "trinity, even of divine beings" does not reflect trinitarian Christian belief. See for example Trinity. --Reuben 00:39, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Looks much better, thanks. I'm changing "trinity of divine beings" to "trinity of divine persons," because a trinitarian Christian would not describe the trinity as consisting of three separate beings. For the same reason, "any deity but God" still isn't quite right, because trinitarian Christians don't believe that Jesus is an additional deity. I think there's probably a better way to put this, but I haven't thought of it yet... --Reuben 01:08, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
It's not just Jesus as an additional diety that's the issue though, it's also the duality between Father and Holy Spirit. Many xtians seem to believe that Jews believe in a trinity without Jesus. That unity thing should be re-emphasized. Perhaps a link to the sh'ma? FiveRings 01:29, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
That would be good in the "nature of God" section, just before "Jesus." --Reuben 01:41, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Friendship" and mormons afforded special privilidges in Israel.

The following paragraph (now reverted) was added to the intro:

"Despite the great theological gaps that exist between the two peoples, since the beginning of modern Jewish history in Israel, close friendships have existed between Israeli leaders and Mormon leaders, and Israel has afforded the Mormon people many benefits in Israel that other denominations have been denied (i.e. the BYU Jerusalem Center)."

this memo from the jerusalem center for public affairs explains what actually happened: http://www.jcpa.org/dje/articles2/mormon.htm

Mormons aren't considered differently from any other xtian denomination. FiveRings 01:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I think an acceptable question to answer is there any evidence that other Christian groups been denied benefits granted the Mormon people? The article cited does not address the final point made that there is not difference. Currently, that can only be assumed an opinion and not a fact.
Who was the editor that made the claim and what evidence do they have for such a statement? Storm Rider (talk) 03:33, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
The memo cited specifically references Israel's policy of freedom of religion, and the need to treat all xtian denominations equally: "The establishment of a Mormon presence on the proposed scale will present a challenge to other Christian groups to whom Israel will then be unable to deny equal access as their right. If the Mormons do build, some guarantee against missionizing will have to be made part of the charter agreement if constant battle is to be avoided (although such a guarantee would not necessarily deflect the opposition of groups opposing a substantial Christian presence in Jerusalem as a threat to Jewish survival)."
The editor wasn't named, just an IP address. FiveRings 05:03, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Unfortunately, even if true, that is original research by that IP unless there is a reference. --Trödel 15:07, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I think the structure was already built; it is the BYU Jerusalem Center. I don't see how its construction is a favor; I suspect the editor was being overly optimistic or just naieve. I know the LDS church and the Mormon people are highly favorable towards Israel and its people, but I am not aware of any mutual relationship beyond that. Storm Rider (talk) 17:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
In fact, many religions have centers near or in Jerusalem (I visited the Bahai temple when I was there). If you read the entire referenced memo, you'll note that one of the concerns was Jews *attacking* the Mormon construction. FiveRings 01:08, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sourcing - Wikipedia not a reliable source

The AFD discussion currently underway contains the statement "I added a lot of the Jewish information, and it was taken from other Wikipedia articles and other disparate sources." This is a reminder that per our guideline on reliable sources, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. The material sourced from Wikipedia articles should be resourced to reliable sources. GRBerry 02:54, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I could have said "as I was taught in Hebrew school", but that's harder to cite. What is considered common knowledge in the jewish community isn't common knowledge at all in the mormon community, and isn't necessarily common knowledge (or thought of at all) in the general community. So at what point is a citation needed? (The sign on the wall at the Mikveh says "take off all makeup and jewelery". I suppose I could take a photo). FiveRings 03:12, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] LDS Baptism

Would someone check into LDS baptism and confirmation. It is listed incorrectly here. Baptism is only for the the washing away of sins. Baptism does not make one a church member. Afterwards priesthood holders confirm the candidate as a member of the church and give them the Gift of the Holy Ghost. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.165.101.30 (talk • contribs)

There are two different baptisms of water. Baptism for remission of sins and baptism as an entrance into the kingdom of God (or the Church). In the church today, we rarely practice the first independent of the second. In the early days of the church, members were baptised when they joined the church, before going to the temple for the first time, before recieving the priesthood, before entering into a new plural marriage, etc. In fact, Oliver Cowdery and Brigham Young both were baptized at least six times each, if not more. Later prophets clarified that the ordinance of the sacrament was adequate for renewing the covenants of baptism and that baptism solely for the remission of sins was not essential after one had already been baptized as a church member. In otherwords, people only needed to be baptized once in their life unless they lost their church membership. Whenever we participate in a new ordinance, according to Wilford Woodruff, their former covenants associated with previous ordinacnes are renewed as if they were participating in the original ordinances for the first time. For example, when you go to the temple to be married, your baptismal coventant is renewed and you are again washed clean of your sins. Same when you partake of the lords supper.
Baptism is the introductory ordinance to church membership. While it is true that Baptism is for the remission of sins - ie to demonstrate that one has partook of the atonement (blood) unto the remission of sins, not merely for the washing away of sins (water) or the sanctification and justification required (spirit) to keep one clean. Baptism does make one a church member. That membership is "confirmed" at the time of confirmation or when a member is given the gift of the holy ghost. See for example: D&C 20: 37, 41, 68, 72-73 ("truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church"; "And to confirm those who are baptized into the church"; "The duty of the members after they are received by baptism.") also, Mosiah 25: 17-18 (Therefore, Alma did go forth into the water and did baptize them; yea, he did baptize them after the manner he did his brethren in the waters of Mormon; yea, and as many as he did baptize did belong to the church of God; and this because of their belief on the words of Alma.
Bottom line? Baptism by water is for church membership and to signify a remission of sins, which comes from accepting the atonement or "received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins," and precedes the baptism by fire (or spirit). Baptism signifies a remission of sins, not neccessarily "washes them away." Baptism is a symbol of the death, burial and ressurection of christ and that we are volunarily laying down and burying our old sin-filled life and lifting up a new life as a disciple of Christ. John the beloved gives an interesting discourse in 1 John 5 on these three baptisms (blood water and spirit). hope this helps. -Visorstuff 21:21, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Split?

Anyone else think this rather long article would work better as two separate ones? "Mormonism and Judaism" would be a comparative religion article (cf. Judaism and Christianity), currently all of section 7 and subsections, and "Mormon views of Judaism" (a similar idea to Judaism's view of Jesus) would include the current introduction and following sections up to 7. Kaisershatner 16:00, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

An even better template is Relations between Catholicism and Judaism. I'm going to make the split if no-one comments. I'm going to solicit comments from major editors here and maybe the Mormonism project?  :) Kaisershatner 17:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I have no objection to the split. In any case the article could usefully be rewritten and significantly shortened. In particular, many of the sections read as simply a statement of Mormon belief, followed (or preceded) by a statement of Jewish belief. It would be better to combine sections into a running text that just touches on the most significant points, since there are already very thorough articles on the two religions individually. If you would like to reorganize the article, and a split would help you do it, it sounds fine to me. --Reuben 17:59, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Not sure I agree with the split. The point-by-point format was the end product of a lot of editing and arm wrestling - integrating the two texts never worked out (in my opinion, because the Mormon editors kept trying to find analogies that didn't exist). FiveRings 22:38, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
This is a tough decision, but I am mildly against at this point. There is no relationship from the perspective of Judaism. The relationship is one way, from Latter-day Saints to the House of Israel. I do agree that the article may be improved. Let's mull this over a bit longer. Storm Rider (talk) 22:56, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Community of Christ, number of members??

Either 275,000 or 245,000 or (more probably) some other number. Not both numbers of members. (OK if they have 275,000 members they for certain have at least 245,000 members, but such sloppy logic won't be accepted by common encyclopedia readers!! :) Rursus 12:33, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a refernce for the current membership - I believe the current number comes from adherents.com. --Trödel 14:11, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Places of worship

Can we get a reference for "Latter-day Saint places of worship are frequently offered to Jews for their use in religious observances or celebrations."? Cdwiegand 22:28, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mention of Mormons in Judaism

I had deleted the following text:

"and in Jewish observance, scripture and commentary (both ancient and modern) there is no belief in or mention of a connection to Mormons or Mormonism."

The reason I had deleted it is that it leads the reader to the question, does Jewish observance, scripture and commentary mention a connection to others and thus there is some additional significance the statement? Also, I assume we are talking about blood relation here. I suspect there would be something about Hagar's son Ishmael, but are there others that it defines specifically?

To me, I thought it was just too belt and suspenders, or redundant to say after first stating that Mormon claims of membership in the House of Israel are not acceptted. Maybe the fist phrase could be strengthened by saying, "Mormon beliefs with regard to their membership in the House of Israel are generally rejected both from a theological and cultural stand point by the Jewish community. Thoughts, FiveRings? --Storm Rider (talk) 04:28, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

My concern was that the edited (tightened) text gave the impression that this was just a jewish community (social) issue, and not a theological issue. There are in fact groups that have been recognized as belonging to the "lost tribes" by modern religious authorities (the Lemba, the Bene Israel). I don't mind the proposed strengthened phrase. FiveRings 05:54, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that stating "both from a theological and cultural" position is appropriate, but I still have reservations about the term cultural. What I think we are trying to say is that within Judaism there is no theology that contemplates any "kin" relationship between the Jewish people and the Latter-day Saint people. We are also trying to say that outside of theology there is no common discussion that would lead to any acceptance of this peculiar LDS concept; however, cultural works, but can you think of anything that would improve it? --Storm Rider (talk) 06:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
The current change is ok, I guess. Many Jews haven't even *heard* of Mormonism, or of the House of Israel claim, so I'm not sure you can even say 'generally rejected,' or talk about conflict. Maybe "From the Jewish standpoint, there is no theological or historical support for .... and Jews who are presented with Mormon claims of such typically reject this idea out of hand." (not original research, if you look at the Jews for Judaism site (http://www.jewsforjudaism.org). FiveRings 17:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the vast majority of the Jews simply are unaware of Mormons or have a limited knowledge of them and their claims and religion.
Upon hearing of LDS claims of being members of the House of Israel, I would assume they are more perplexed or even flummoxed. I don't really think the second sentence is truthful, is it? Are you aware of any problems this claim makes beteen interrelationships? In my interactions with my Jewish friends, most of them are Orthodox, I have never sensed anything more than interest as in "that is interesting". I never have thought it was an acceptance of fact, but an understanding of my beliefs. Membership in the House of Israel carries several layers of meanings for Jews than for LDS. For LDS it is limited to a realization of being in covenant with God. Jews, I think, feel the same thing, but it is greater than that. It is a nationalistic sense among others.
I shortened the "conflict" concept because it is more ambivalence than conflict except when it comes to those Jews who are familiar with the Baptism of Dead concept which appears to be a highly offensive practice to the Jewish people.
Five, is there something else you would add or say that is not already expressed? --Storm Rider (talk) 17:27, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I would say that the orthodox are mostly perplexed, but more secular jews (who are more likely to have been actively proselytized) can actually get pissed off. We do not have a positive racial memory with regard to attempted conversions (and the Mormon claim looks a whole lot like Jews for Jesus tactics). I was taught that "House of Israel" referred to descendants of the person (Israel/Jacob), so yes, it's "nationalistic" in the old Hebrew sense of "nation" (not the same as country).
How about: "From the Jewish standpoint, there is no theological or historical support for Mormon membership in the house of Israel. Several groups have made such a claim in both historic and modern times, and while some of these groups have in fact been recognized as "lost tribes" (for example, the Lemba people of Ethiopia), Mormons are not among them. While this dichotomy of belief can cause conflicts between individual Mormons and Jews, this rarely descends to active anti-Semitism or anti-Mormonism." (Some Jews would say that *any* attempt at conversion constitutes anti-semitism, but that's more depth than I think belongs here). FiveRings 20:08, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, thta works with two changes: change claim to claims and reverse the anti-; what we are talking about is Jewish issues with LDS claims so it would be anti-Mormonism. I question even stating anti-Semitism; I don't believe I have ever heard of any LDS expressing anything similar to anti-Semitisism. It is a foreign concept and I would think almost impossible for a LDS to express; of course all things are possible. What about just leaving anti-Semitism off? Are you aware of any incidents (except for what I would consider a radical definition of anti-Semitism you described above)?
Have there been any writings regarding the restoration of the full 12 tribes of Israel? The concept of Jewish tribal affiliation appears to have lost its value except for maybe the Kohns. --Storm Rider (talk) 20:24, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

As an aside, LDS believe that there are both literal descendants of Ephraim and those adopted into the tribe within the church. Though there is a belief that most LDS are of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh, I am aware that there are believed members of all the tribes of Israel. I am not aware of LDS who seek to claim acceptance or acknowledgement by Jews or the nation of Israel for their membership in the House of Israel. However, I would have to say that it would not have surprised me if a Mormon had tried to gain recognition; that would have been a personal act and not on the part of the group or the church. This is unlike the other groups you mentioned who sought recognition, which did not come quickly or easily. I think LDS beliefs are quite independent of those of others. --Storm Rider (talk) 20:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

There's a travel agent from here in Utah that does tours of Israel about once a year. He advertizes that he is both LDS and Jewish, implying (with surrounding language) that one must be Jewish to be a tour guide in Israel. This would be an instance of what you are talking about, an individual who is in both groups. But, I have never heard of a group seeking recognition. — Val42 21:17, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
WRT anti-Semitism, I have personally had the experience (and it appears to be common) of Mormons telling me they were MORE of the house of Israel than I was, because of the influx of new members to the Jewish community over the centuries. This is in fact a claim made by several anti-Semitic groups (that modern Jews aren't really Jewish). While that may not have been the general Mormon intent, it is the same tactic (similarly, the Mormon practice of claiming to be Jewish, and to follow Jewish rites and holidays, while worshiping Jesus, is also a JFJ tactic). So at what point do we stop looking at motivation and start looking at the offensiveness of the action? (By their fruits shall you know them, and all that). I did specify "individual" action in the proposed wording.
WRT to lost tribes, some seek recognition, and some just make the claim. Its a huge area of discussion. See the lost tribes page - Lost_tribes#Groups_claiming_descent_from_specific_Lost_Tribes (I see that this too needs work, since the last time I looked at it).
WRT the tour guide, I wonder if the Jewish community would consider him Jewish. I'm guessing it's an advertising ploy. FiveRings 17:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think we are okay with the wording, but I do think that individual experiences should be understood as such and they should not be construed as reflective of a group. Within Mormonism one thing is very clear, the covenant with the House of Israel is still intact and valid, i.e. we believe that the Jews are the covenant people; we just do not believe it is an exclusive covenant. In reality, we have to understand that people have differing degrees of understanding and there is not accounting for stupidity. I don't know how one gets to a point of claiming to be more of a Jew than a Jew!
It does appear that it is easy to paint the actions of others with the same brush (JFJ and Mormons for example); too broad a stroke is seldom a good idea.
WRT being Jewish - I think LDS make a distinction between the House of Israel and being Jewish. The House of Isreal is the assembly of all the Tribes while being Jewish is being a member of the tribe of Judah; it is a clear distinction. --Storm Rider (talk) 18:46, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
But you see, I'm not of the house of Judah. And I am most certainly a Jew. (If you're ok with the new wording I'll make the change). FiveRings 21:05, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unfermented Wine

I've heard a handful of Mormons claim that "new wine" means "unfermented wine." Can any provide a citation for this? I've inserted a citation request into the article. Paulistano (talk) 23:54, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Good catch; the scripture states "pure" wine, not new wine. All cross-references led to clarity that it was wine without clarification of being unfermented wine. Further, I find no commentary that one would use to produce an interpretation of new wine. I changed to reflect the actual language of the scripture. --Storm Rider (talk) 03:24, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] =Chronological Contradiction

The chronology has:

  1. July 23, 1857 (Rosh Chodesh Av (the first day of the month of Av)) - June 29, 1857: U.S. President James Buchanan declares Utah in rebellion of the U.S. government. Buchanan appoints Alfred Cumming as governor of Utah. Cumming is to be escorted by a regiment of the U.S. army, initially led by Col. Edmund Alexander.
  2. July 18, 1857: Two Mormons, Porter Rockwell and Abraham Owen Smoot, learn of Buchanan's declaration in Kansas City while on a mail run. The same day, Col. Alexander and troops begin the journey to Utah.
  3. July 23, 1857: Rockwell and Smoot arrive in Salt Lake City and inform Brigham Young of the government's plans to overthrow Utah. 10 Years of predicted peace comes to an end.

So they heard about it and Alexander movesmfive days before it was declared and arrived the day it was declard? Avraham (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 04:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC)