Talk:Morganatic marriage

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Discussion Page for Morganatic marriage - all comments should be added to the very bottom of this page and remember to sign your posts by typing four tildes. Thank you!

Contents

[edit] Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Phillip

Is this the same principle as Victoria and Albert? I'm fairly sure he's pretty much Prince Consort material. --81.174.244.104 02:01, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Charles & Camilla

Does the upcoming marriage of Charles, Prince of Wales and Camilla Parker Bowles count as a morganatic marriage?

I remember this being talked of before the announcement, but I haven't heard much since. I think that because Camilla is presumably post-menopausal no one will waste time making the necessary arrangements (an act of parliament) to remove any children of the marriage from the succession. As for preventing passage of titles to her as Charles's wife, AFIAK she will be Princess of Wales—there's no avoiding it—but the title will never be used or referred to, making her de facto not the Princess of Wales. I'm no expert though. Perhaps one of "Team Peerage" could add something about this marriage and its status to the article. — Trilobite (Talk) 06:57, 11 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Although it won't happen, any hypothetical children of Charles and Camilla would be styled HRH Prince/Princess from birth, and would be in line to the Royal succession after Prince Harry (but before Prince Andrew). It would take an extraordinary Act of Parliament to specifically deprive them of that. Britain does not have morganatic marriages - the children of any legal marraige can inherit the throne. Indisciplined (talk) 15:35, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
According to http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7257427/ "...Constitutional Affairs Minister Christopher Leslie said in a written statement that the marriage of Charles and Parker Bowles would not be “morganatic” — in which the spouse of inferior status has no claim to the standing of the other. “This is absolutely unequivocal that she automatically becomes queen when he becomes king,” said Andrew Mackinlay, the lawmaker who raised the question. The Department for Constitutional Affairs confirmed that interpretation, saying that legislation would be required to deny Parker Bowles the title of queen. Similar legislation apparently would be required in more than a dozen countries — such as Australia, Jamaica and Canada — in which the British sovereign is the head of state...."206.156.242.39 20:05, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, that's right. Any change to the succession is extremely complicated because it needs all the Commonwealth Realms to do the same thing. The UK is unable to just unilaterally mess with its royal family in ways that affect all those other countries. — Trilobite (Talk) 16:21, 9 Apr 2005 (UTC)

This is pretty interesting but doesn't really belong in this article. Just one sentence pointing out that Charles and Camilla is not morgantic, although it looks a little like it.

[edit] United Kingdom

"Marriages have never been considered morganatic in any part of the United Kingdom." So how, then, does one refer to the marriage between Catherine of Valois (Queen of England, consort of Henry V), and Owen Tudor? They married sometime between 1428 and 1432 in apparent defiance of the statute of 1428 which "forbade marriage to a queen without royal consent on pain of forfeiture of lands for life". They had three children Edmund, Jasper and Margaret. The marriage itself was recognised on Catherine's tombstone by her grandson, Henry VII. The children did not gain at all from their mother's estate or status which would appear to satisfy the definition in the opening paragraph of this article. In any event the marriage is described as morganatic in several reputable texts eg Dictionary National Biography (current), The making of the Tudor dynasty by R. A. Griffiths and R. S. Thomas (1985).--Silver149 09:36, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

This entire paragraph is irrelevant to the article, and I'm removing it:
Notwithstanding the above, there may have been at least one morganatic marriage or its resemblance in the British royalty. Catherine of Valois, dowager queen of Henry V, is said to have entered into such a union with Owen Tudor about or before the year 1429, or they never married. (Their eldest child, Edmund Tudor, was the father of Henry VII.)
If they were married, this was not a morganatic marriage. Britain (and England before it) does not have morganatic marriages in any form. Catherine of Valois was not born a member of the English Royal Family. She was the French widow of an English King. The children of her second marriage to Tudor, therfore, had no claim on the English throne, because they did not have English Royal descent through either parent. Their son, Edmund Tudor, married a noblewoman with some Royal descent, and Henry VII's claim on the English throne is based on that. This is not the only example of a British Royal widow re-marrying to a man of 'lower' rank - they are allowed to do so.
The children of the Valois/Tudor marriage were not titled, as in England (and I believe in France) common-born men do not automatically take on Royal Status when they marry a Royal woman (unlike when common-born women marry Royal men) - see the modern day Princess Anne and her husbands. The children don't automatically get Royal titles either, but are still in line of succession - See Peter & Zara Phillips, 9th & 10th in line to the throne today. Children of continental morganatic marriages cannot succeed to their respective thrones, because having 1 non-royal parent prevents it. That's the difference. Indisciplined (talk) 15:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Prince Alexander

Ludwig II, as the husband of Prince Alexander's mother, was the legal father of Prince Alexander, and nobody else was ever acknowledged to be his biological father (although obviously there were rumors). The issue of Prince Alexander's parentage is a secondary one having nothing to do with this article, and it is, in fact, not incorrect to call Alexander Ludwig's son. Note that at Prince Alexander of Hesse and by Rhine, the intro simply calls him the son of Ludwig II, although the questionableness of this, biologically speaking, is discussed later. At any rate, point is, he's the legal son of Ludwig II, and that's all that matters for purposes of genealogy. Everything else is speculation, and not worth discussing in an article which has nothing to do with the subject of Prince Alexander's parentage, and only with his marriage. john k 19:54, 29 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] factual error?

Someone made an assertion about Diana Wales nee Spencer, which I believe is factually incorrect.

In the systems of Nobility of some nations every child of a noble is a noble. This is not the case in the British system. At the time of the French revolution fully 4% of the French population is noble. Only one individual holds a title at a time. Their are five levels in the British system. Duke at the top rung, Barons on the bottom rung. The eldest son of a Duke, and the next level or two down, is generally addressed by the secondary title of the parent. But they are still a commoner, until the parent dies. They can, for instance, run for a seat in the "House of Commons.

IIUC, the honourary titles the children get don't make them nobles. Geo Swan (talk) 07:37, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

You are absolutely right, GeoSwan. I think someone had said that because Diana was born with the courtesy title 'Lady' (as the Daughter of an Earl), that she wasn't a commoner before her marriage. In fact, she was, for the resons you have outlined above. This was almost certainly a good-faith error by someone unfamiliar with the British system. Indisciplined (talk) 17:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Royal Marriages Act

I really want to remove this entire section on grounds of irrelevance. Marrying in contravention of the Act means the marriage isn't legal - which is completely different to a Morganatic marriage (which is legally recognised). Currently, a large section of this article is handed over the the UK, a country which has never had Morganatic marraige anyway. I think we could then slim the UK section down to 4 paragraphs:

  • Opening paragraph explaining the UK has never practiced this system (using the modern Royal Family as examples)
  • The section about William & Mary, and William's apparant expectation that he would be King, as Mary's mother was a commoner, only to find out that that system did not apply in Britain (I never knew about that controversy, well done to whoever found it!).
  • That Edward VIII was refused a Morganantic marriage to Wallis, because there was no legal mechanism to do so.
  • The Royal Marriages Act could then get one sentence, to explain why it isn't a system of Morganatic Marriage, and should not be confused with it. The Royal Marriages Act has it own article, and all relevant meterial shoudl go there

Indisciplined (talk) 17:35, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

Implemented these changes. I have moved the information on the Royal Marriages Act to the right place - the Article on the Royal Marriages Act. Indisciplined (talk) 19:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question

What about (pre-Union) Scotland? Was there ever any such notion there? —Ashley Y 09:59, Jan 16, 2004 (UTC)

  • I don't think so. Mary, Queen of Scots married Henry, Lord Darnley. If this notion was inplace in Scotland it would be considered morganatic.

[edit] Elizabeth Bowes Lyon a commoner?

Surely she was born into Scottish nobility. Her wikipedia article says so. I've removed that section. --Mongreilf (talk) 11:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)