Talk:Monty Roberts

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Couldn't add a hyperlink cuz of url blacklist so entered it as text: horses.suite101.com/article.cfm/monty_roberts 'Monty Roberts... Horse whisperer, or a bag of wind???' - Duane Isaacson says that Join-Up is just another form of 'breaking' Lil 18:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

I removed a poorly-written explanation of the so-called 'join-up' procedure. It may be better to have that as a separate article. Lil 07:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The book Horse Whispers & Lies has been returned to the website www.HorseWhispersandLies.com and may be read there. Lil 18:17, 31 January 2006 (UTC)


Deborah Loucks, who listed the accomplishments by Monty Roberts in the article, is his daughter. A few of those items, such as having doubled on movies, have been questioned by other persons. For example in the Feb. 1999 issue of Horse & Rider, there is an article, 'Horse Whispers or Horse Feathers' in which the author, Ronna Snyder, wrote "The archives of the Screen Actors Guild, The Academy Library Of Motion Picture Arts & Sciences, and the Stunt Men's Association of Motion Pictures appear to back up her (Innocenti, of the Salinas Police Dept.) questions. These entities keep histories of Hollywood's performers and stunt doubles. There's no record of Monty Roberts working in 100 movies, as was published in his book." Lil

http://www.horsewhispersandlies.com/index.html suggests that Monty Roberts "traded truth for glory", but the website has only a front page.

Lil, I say your Amazon review of the video. I think we can work together to present both sides of the controversy. Again, I stress that I have no desire to make Roberts look good (or bad). I mostly want to talk about the horse training methods that he's promoting. Whether he discoverned them himself (or copied them without credit from others) is also interesting, but frankly of secondary importance to me. Uncle Ed 14:47, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Cut from intro:

The book inspired a novel and a movie, and not a little controversy.

There is controversy about whether Roberts was the model for The Horse Whisperer:

In reference to the book and movie The Horse Whisperer, Roberts has told reporters from the onset, that he was Nichols Evans model for the character of Tom Booker. He said Evans¹s novel was 70% about his life. Evans denied this. [1]

So we got a guy who seems to have "discovered" a wonderful technique, railing against the past, believed and beloved all over, who might be perpetrated a fraud. No wonder this article has never been written. Uncle Ed 15:24, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

Author Nicholas Evans makes it very plain on his own website that MR was not the inspiration for 'The Horse Whisperer' which was published before MR's 'autobiography' anyhow. MR's father Marvin published a book from which MR apparently borrowed heavily. I have found and purchased a copy of that little book; hopefully will receive it this week.
BTW Ed, I saved a zip copy of Horse Whispers & Lies. If you want to see it, email me. Click on my name to see my email address. You can also buy a used copy on amazon.com or get a copy through interlibrary loan. Lil Peck

Thanks. There are quite obviously two sides to this story. I don't know anything about horses, but I know a bit about the yearning for a harmonious relationship.

Here are some notes I've made from surfing:

The fallout of his mantra has caused the public to believe that most horse trainers are cruel and use archaic methods. This is a terrible injustice to thousands of honest trainers. One such trainer criticized by Roberts, was Rex Peterson, who trained the horse Pilgrim, for the movie The Horse Whisperer. [2]

In reference to the book and movie The Horse Whisperer, Roberts has told reporters from the onset, that he was Nichols Evans model for the character of Tom Booker. He said Evans¹s novel was 70% about his life. Evans denied this. [ibid]

Roberts takes credit for inventing what he calls join-up. Roberts' father, Marvin described the same approach in a book he wrote in 1956. Marvin was not the only one to use this approach; it has been done for years under different names, such as, hooking on, and advance and retreat.

Joyce Renebome is Monty Roberts¹ aunt


The book inspired a novel and a movie, and not a little controversy.

SHARON KOZY wrote:

Roberts began working on his first book at the suggestion of Queen Elizabeth. She first invited him to England to demonstrate his techniques in 1989, and has since had all of her horses trained using his concepts. Roberts's method of starting an untrained horse, "join-up," achieves its goal through a series of silent body language motions that he has termed Equus. Roberts learned this form of nonverbal communication by studying horses in the desert as a teenager [3]

SHARON KOZY wrote:

he is able to appeal to a wide audience because his underlying message emphasizes communication rather than coercion and brutality. He is on a mission to bring his concepts to as many people as possible and to promote their application in human relationships [4]

I don't know if the above helps or not. Roberts tells a very appealing story, and has an endorsement from the British Queen. But his own aunt disagrees with him. Is he just making up stuff about his dad, or what? I know two things: people who have been hurt will often look for a scapegoat to blame their problems on (Monty R might be doing this). People who abuse their children often find ways to get away with it (Monty's father might' have done this).

I don't know, and I'm not going to take sides. I will write objectively about both sides of the story and avoid drawing any conclusions (see NPOV). Uncle Ed 16:53, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

You are correct to remain objective and I would hope that everyone would. I am not objective because of information I have that I am not at liberty to post in a public forum. You can find articles that corroborate 'Horse Whispers & Lies' by searching the archives of Time Magazine and the San Francisco Examiner newspaper. There is also an article by attorney/writer Jonathon Turley that refers to the gentleman in question as a "notorious liar". I must emphasize that the gentleman IS an accomplished horseman; it is simply his allegations of having been a battered child and some of his more grandiose claims of discoveries and achievements that I have issues with. It is said that one may learn from anyone and that it just as true with this gentleman as with anyone else.

I would also offer that Nicholas Evan's denial of MR's involvement with 'The Horse Whisperer,' and MR's continued claims to have been the model for Tom Booker, illustrated his propensity to take bold liberties with the facts.

I know that abusers are often very successful at keeping the abuse secret. However, it appears unlikely that Marvin Roberts would have been successful at keeping child or horse abuse secret; his home was a 'grand central station' for kids and horsemen. On the other side of the coin, just because some abusers are successful at hiding the abuse, it does not follow that everyone who claims to have been abused actually was. (Consider false memory syndrome, for example.)

One thing is certain, to my satisfaction, and that is that Marvin Roberts was a kind and gentle man. Lil

Take a look at Dave_Pelzer, who could have been a model of how to turn having been an abused child into a career. Pelzer does have a brother who has also published a book about HE became the abuse target after Dave left home. True, or jumping on the cash bandwagon? I don't have a clue. I'd like to add that movie horse trainer Rex Peterson is apparently well regarded as a humane and effective horse trainer. Lil

Thanks for taking this all so calmly. My take on it so far is that Patrick knows a lot about horses, you have some dirt on Roberts that you can't share (but I believe you have it!), and I'm fairly good at laying out two sides of a controversy fairly.

I'm also sympathetic toward anyone who can present useful methods of team builidng and cooperation, so please help me to avoid letting this sympathy bias me toward MR. Guide me gently towards objectivity, please! Uncle Ed 18:05, 3 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Not a model for the "horse whisperer" book

I have briefly scanned the above discussion. Even if you pnly read the novel or see the movie and don't happen to read anything the author writes about his sources, you would know that the methodology used by the "horse whisperer" story is that of John Rarey. I don't remember the personal life of the horse trainer, at least as it appears in the movie, to have been a real element in the story. The story is about a lady and her daughter who have a problem with their horse. The horse appears to have been "ruined" by a traumatic experience, but rather than giving up on the poor animal the mother and daughter get the horse into a trailer somehow (despite the fact that it is presumably wild with fright) and take it all the way to wherever the trainer lives. He takes pity on them (even though, as I seem to remember, they haven't warned him they are coming). The Rarey method of getting the horse to lie down on the ground and then demonstrating to the horse that, even though it is completely helpless in that situation, the trainer exhibits only kindness. The horse learns that it can be around people without having the previsous traumatic situation reoccur, and thereafter the horse does not freak out over situations that remind it of the original trauma. The budding romance between trainer and client does not go anywhere, and she and her daughter return to her husband.

There is no indication whatsoever of using the Roberts method whereby the horse is put in a circular pen and "sent away" as though for bad behavior and then a "join up" is negotiated.

As Lil Peck says, there are plenty of people who have advocated non-abusive ways of forming productive relationships with horses. If Roberts did not discover the process of negotiation he describes being used within the herd, then somebody else discovered it. I did a lot of reading about horses in the late 50s and early 60s and never saw the slightest hint of this kind of idea. I have a magpie's eye for all kinds of information that appeals to me. Having read a rare copy of Rarey's original book in the RBR of my college library, I would have forevermore been primed for anything that showed an additional insight into how to get on the right side of a horse. I never saw the negotiation idea until I read it in Roberts's book (or maybe I saw it on TV and then got the book). If somebody else had the insight first and published first, then we must give that person credit. Just think about it. Xenophon knew and taught the basics of good horse training, and other people have explicated a thing or two here and there. Rarey discovered a way to rehabilitate horses that otherwise were so freaked out by human beings that nobody could handle them. That was around 1850. The next major paradigm shift was the negotiation idea. That's a quantum leap. (I don't, by the way, agree with Roberts that you ought to use it on every horse. If you're already "joined up" with your horse then why do you need to re-do the contract?) That's some one person observing what every person who has raised horses has probably observed once or twice without ever twigging to the significance. "My horse just made a marimba-like sound with her teeth. What the hay was that about?" From Xenophon down to the late 20th century, from England to Japan and back around the world, nobody ever figured it out. So who really did notice this first?

Usually in the worlds of science and of patents, the credit goes to who published first. Newton beat Leibniz to publication of the idea of integral calculus by weeks or months, and then they fought about who was really the discoverer. But in the case of the horse negotiation behavior, nobody that I know of has said, "I published before Roberts," nor has anybody even claimed to have written to a second party about it. But maybe somebody got there first. We ought to be able to find citations if somebody else got there first. P0M 02:32, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

Marvin Roberts "got there" before his son. Ristau and Renebome quoted from Marvin Roberts's own book and compared it to what MR does. Virtually identical.
John Lyons was published, through video media, doing hooking on before MR published his book. John just didn't give it a cute little name and stick a ® on it.
I'll ask Marv Walker how long he has been doing his "bonder" which is virtually the same thing. It is possible that Marv may have published before MR.
>Usually in the worlds of science and of patents, the credit goes to who published first.> Edited for courtesy: Is that precedent appropriate for this topic? I am not an academician.
Not only is Roberts' procedure not appropriate for every horse, it won't even work with every horse.
Edited for courtesy: Is hooking-on aka join up getting more importance than it deserves? Now, working with a horse for a period of years until the horse carries itself in frame, collected -- that's impressive.
Another thought occurred to me, and that is, that there may be a conflict here on the topic of horse training as opposed to ETHOLOGY. There is some overlap, but not all good horse trainers are ethologists and I would imagine that rather few genuine, certified ethologists are good also good horse trainers, because of the time and study and work that it takes to become exceptional in either field.

Here is an excerpt from Horse Whispers & Lies, where the authors compare Marvin Roberts' procedure to MR's:

Marvin Roberts - Training A Horse to Catch


• Use a corral about fifty feet in diameter, turn the horse loose.

• Take a rope about thirty-five feet long, toss it at the horse, and pull it back.

• Make him go one way around the corral and then the other.

• When he slows, make him go on, but do not whip him.

• Keep throwing the rope over his back or behind him.

• When he begins to tire, step in front of him, hands up, and say, "Whoa."

• If he stops, walk up and pet him.

• If he runs away, throw the rope over him and make him continue the run.

• Do this two or three times; soon he will face you when you walk toward him.


Monty Roberts - Join-Up


• Use a pen that is fifty feet in diameter.

• Have a light sash thirty feet long.

• Pitch the line toward his rear quarters, it will not hurt him.

• Keep the horse moving. He is retreating. You must advance.

• Get the horse to canter five or six revolutions one way.

• Reverse and repeat.

• When he wants to stop, coil the sash and assume a submissive mode.

• If he stands and faces you, move closer to him, but not straight on.

• Soon he will reach out with his nose to your shoulder, this is Join-Up.

Ed, if you will email me (click my name for contact info) I will email you a 'paste' of chapter 16 where this and more information may be read.

The way John Lyons demonstrated this was better than the above. BTW: if y'all MUST have Marvin Roberts' procedure in print somewhere in order for it to be academically rigorous enough for him to receive credit and to be lauded as the "discoverer", well, he DID publish it in a little book. I tracked down a copy and hope to receive it this week. Lil

OK, looked up my John Lyons book, 'Lyons On Horses.' I believe I have a spiral bound book by Lyons that was published earlier than the 1991 date of this book somewhere. Anyhow -- Chapter Two, Round Pen Reasoning, is the same procedure as the one MR uses for his demos, only Lyons described it in more detail.Lil
Further perusal of HW&L Chapter 16:

In 1957, Marvin called it Training a Horse to Catch.

In 1997, Monty called it Join-Up. Monty’s Herculean effort to promote himself, his book, and a nonviolent method of horse training has generally been well received across this continent and abroad. Many of his clinics’ attendees are mesmerized by Monty’s almost mystical power over the horse. How does he do it?

In the 1960s, Dr. William "Billy" Linfoot, a veterinarian from Pleasanton, California, offered demonstration clinics on a method of working with horses that would allow him to mount a "wild, unridden" horse in a matter of minutes. He used the terms "Advance and Retreat" and "Approach at a forty-five degree angle." A review of Dr. Linfoot’s early films offers a glimpse of the natural horsemanship wave to hit the horse industry. Marvin Roberts was a fan of Dr. Linfoot and often spoke highly of the equine veterinarian.


In Horse and Horseman Training, Marvin E. Roberts offered advice on how to teach a horse to be caught in an open area. His directions were simple in 1957. He gave no reason for the action. He only offered that it worked.

Lil Peck

[edit] Monty's father's book

Perhaps people would like to judge for themselves the training methods of Monty Roberts' father, Marvin E. Roberts in 1957. http://www.montyroberts.com/images/jui_photos/horse_horseman_training.pdf

and found here: http://www.montyroberts.com/jui_about.html

In contrast, Monty Roberts, the man who listens to horses, writes [5]:

http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/toc_1.gif http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/toc_2.gif http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/page_5.gif http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/page_11.gif http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/page_13.gif http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/page_93.gif http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/page_129.jpg http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/fmhty_front_cover.jpg http://www.montyroberts.com/images/fmhty_book_excerpt/fmhty_back_cover.jpg

::::NOTE: The links above were given by Deborah Loucks, one of Monty Roberts' daughters who is also an employee of his organization, on 19:48, 20 November 2006. Lil

Well, the photographs and text would indicate a preference for force over persuasion. I saw several images of a horse tied with one leg up, in reference to sacking out. --Uncle Ed 21:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
How interesting that the book image links were given by Debbie Loucks (a check of the page history shows) who is Monty's daughter and is employed by Monty. She frequently leaves glowing reviews of her father's work around the web without disclosing her relationship to him and his organization. I do give her credit for using her real name, however. I believe it is important to read the text of Marvin Roberts Sr's book along with viewing the pictures, to understand the context. For example, he mentions that it may be necessary to lay a horse down in order to castrate it. He also gives lots of advice about handling horses gently and taking care for their health and wellbeing. Take into account also that this book appears to have been written with range-raised colts in mind. These were also colts that may have not had the most naturally easy-going temperaments. Today, many of the bloodlines we work with have been selected for trainability and innate gentleness. Much of this book is very similar to Professor Beery's advice. 18:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Monty claims a lot of credit for the success of the stallion Johnny Tivio. According to records online at the AQHA website, Monty bought the horse 12/13/1965. The AQHA has the following as show records for the horse:

NATIONAL CUTTING HORSE ASSOCIATION $ 5,188.90 Earned thru 01/01/1966 1965 OPEN HIGH POINT WESTERN RIDING STALLION 1964 OPEN PERFORMANCE REGISTER OF MERIT

It appears that Johnny Tivio did a great deal of winning before he came into Monty's hands. According to people who knew Johnny Tivio, those wins were done under the training and riding of Harry Rose.
As for Monty's horse Dually (PEPINICS DUALLY), in his autobiography, MR wrote, "Dually was a cull from the Greg Ward Ranch, a throw-away horse whom no one would buy."
Yet, a check of official AQHA records shows the following information about this horse:

AQHA ownership records show as dates of sale: CURRENT OWNER : MONTY AND PAT ROBERTS SOLVANG, CA 01/09/1995 2ND PREV OWNER : GREG AND/OR LAURA WARD TULARE, CA 03/01/1994 It should be noted that Greg Ward (deceased) is known as one of the greatest and most respected Reined Cowhorse trainers of all time.

AQHA performance records for Dually show:
NATIONAL CUTTING HORSE ASSOCIATION $ 6,295.51 Earned thru 01/01/1994
NATIONAL REINED COW HORSE ASSOCIATION $ 5,404.18 Earned thru 11/02/1995
Apparently, the "thow-away" horse that "no one wanted" had earned over $6000 before acquired by Monty.
Dually was a product not only of Greg Ward's training but also of his breeding program that has produced many world class money earners in NCHA, NRHA, NRCHA, and AQHA, descended from Greg Ward's great mare Fillinic.
As evidence of Greg Ward's love of horses and his skill, consider this quote from an article in Western Horseman magazine, 'Could it have been that the high-strung Fillinic had proven too much of a challenge for the earlier owners, needing the sure and steady hand of the "Master," Greg Ward, the man who was to make Fillinic, just as Fillinic was to make him?'
FYI- 'Horse Whispers & Lies' at http://horsewhispersandlies.com ; the Feb. 1999 issue of Horse & Rider magazine's article, 'Horse Whispers or Horse Feathers?'; San Francisco Examiner Article: 'BIOGRAPHY CALLED UNBRIDLED FICTION' January 11, 1997; "Horse of a Different Color" by John Skow & James Willwerth, Time Magazine Dec. 14, 1998; "Now! Read the True (More or Less) Story!" Tuesday, February 24, 1998 The New York Times; and "A Peddler of Court Gossip May Pay the Piper" by Jonathon Turley.

Lil 15:58, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

I feel very fortunate to have the text at last. Thank you. I looked at a few of the places that I know to be problematical and in several of them I saw advice to hit the horse with a whip or a length of rubber garden hose, or even one for each hand. I also noted something to the effect that the rider must establish dominance over the horse.
Somewhere in the back of my mind I hold the mental image of photographs of horses being tied to rings attached the the side of a barn and left to struggle against their bonds. The statement accompanying these photographs said that sometime the horses were seriously injured or even broke their necks. I almost wouldn't believe it except that I saw virtually the same thing being done on a local breeding/training center. I'll have to look for the photographs, but I think they were provided in one of Monty's books.
My vet is a horse person, someone who rode first and became a veterinarian later. She is probably a little more extreme than I am on never hitting a horse. (I learned one way to give an injection to a horse without having it be really aware that a needle was going in, about the same method that our family doctor used on my little brother, pinching him gently before and during the insertion of the needle.) She strongly disapproved of using even a "tap a couple times with the back side of the hand and then turn the hand over and insert the needle on the next 'tap'." The one instance in which she is in favor of aversive reinforcement is when a horse attempts to dominate the owner by rushing him/her in the field and biting or kicking with serious intent to do injury. In that case the human is doing pretty much what another horse would do if this horse tried to bite and kick it. Horses seem to understand that there is an "opportunity cost" involved for exhibiting aggressive behavior. Monty Roberts's father seems to be far more in favor of "showing the horse who is boss" by using the whip.
I'll have to take more time with the text. I particularly want to look at the part about "sacking out" because some people use a technique that gradually accustoms horses to things that might originally be interpreted as threatening, e.g., the knocked-down garbage can that looks like a crouching predator. Other people use sacking out to terrify a horse while it is constrained in such a way that it learns that it is powerless to avoid any fearful thing. The latter is both cruel and stupid. The former is nothing more than a contrived situation to do what the gentle Xenophon advocated more than two thousand years ago.
Just tying a horse's foot up is not bad. It can be no worse for the horse than for a human to have his/her arm in a sling. (If your arm is not broken and you rest it in a sling to see how that feels I don't see how it would be at all a bad thing. If you tie my arms so I can't move then and then menace me with rattlesnakes I think I'd be just a mite traumatized by the procedure.) P0M 03:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Patrick. As usual, you've hit the nail on the head. I hope to see these facts and insights incorporated in Natural horsemanship, Domestication of the horse, horse training, horse gentling, horse starting and/or horse whispering.

I've placed my arm in a sling to see how it feels, and I wouldn't appreciated being menaced by a rattlesnake or a whip. I might not be a PETA supporter, but I sympathize with animals nonetheless. Moreover, I see parallels between the techniques Roberts (Jr.) has brought to the public's attention, and ways of bringing peace to the human world; on the family, school, national and even international level.

It's really about dominance (based on fear or force) versus natural, peaceful, harmonious cooperation. The former is the way of the world since history began. The latter is what my church is all about. --Uncle Ed 18:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Patrick, I found the part you referred to that suggested the use of quirts or pieces of garden hose. It was in a paragraph about curing rearing, a vice that is dangerous to both horse and rider. I'm guessing that Marvin Roberts found the method to be relatively safe and effective.

Lil 19:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

The first, and one of the only ever, scathing remarks I read in my early library of horse training and horsemastership books was by someone commenting on the practice of "curing" a horse of rearing by striking it on the head while it is rearing.
To me, the dynamics involved in rearing and in unprovoked and aggressive kicking and biting are quite different. If one believes in the rectitude of dominating a horse, then I guess any negative reaction of a horse toward a rider should result in the human's using the most effective means to punish resistance. I don't believe that attitude can even be supported on the grounds of naked self interest.
If I go into a pasture and a horse rushes me with hooves and teeth, I'll exact the traditional opportunity cost. I'll do the same thing to tell the horse to stop that another horse would do, and the horse will understand the transaction. It won't be remembered weeks, months, or years later as my aggressive act.
If I'm tightening my horse's girth and she turns around to glare at me with open mouth, I do not interpret that action as aggression. It's her way of telling me that I'm hurting her enough that she's going to have to get herself away from the pain if I don't cut it out. So I figure out what was pinching or sore and go on from there.
Rearing is indeed dangerous. Interestingly, it is the "vice" of the intelligent horses. It's a normal action, either the adaptation of the horse's preparation to use its forefeet to strike downward with maximum force at a predator on the ground, or the adaptation of a move used to counter an attack by a large predator that has landed on the horse's back. Either way, it is a defensive move. So the question becomes, what is the rider doing that is offensive to the horse.
One's object has to be to avoid future rearing, not to vent one's anger at the current action. It wouldn't make sense to smack the horse between the ears for rearing if something in pinching or cutting the horse and s/he's trying to get away from it. But if it is not a mechanical problem like that (and it usually isn't because the smart horse will let you know while you're putting the saddle on), then the question will be what the rider is doing that is offending the horse, and why has this issue festered to the point that the horse is so impatient with it. If the horse has already taken an intense dislike to the rider's lack of good technique, then whacking it for objecting to the bad behavior is going to result in a match of willpower, and maybe a match of physical force.
As a riding instructor in a very fine summer camp I had problems with one large black gelding. He was a beautiful animal, very nice to ride, but with certain riders he would rear. From the ground it was difficult to be sure, but the likely diagnosis seemed to be a conflict of aids. Being urged forward with the legs while being jerked back with the bit would probably make anybody a bit inclined to be malignantly literal in the interpretation of instructions. When ever that happened I would take over riding the horse for a few minutes, ask him to back in a polite way, and if he did start to rear I would just urge him forward and make him do a few tight circles in each direction. When I turned him back to his rider he was always o.k. for the rest of the day. I wished the camp owners hadn't supplied me with that particular animal, but once I got onto his temperament I just made sure to give him to one of the best riders. They liked the challenge, the ride, and the animal's power, and I liked not having to straighten messes out. Fortunately I only had to school him a couple times.
Earlier I mentioned the local trainer who ties untrained horses between two trees and watches them rear and pitch trying to free themselves. That trainer is also the person who told me how terribly, terribly dangerous horses are. (I have known good trainers and good riders all my life, and that was a new one to me, although the guy who had care of Triple-Crown winner Omaha warned me not to get too close to his stall one day -- not saying "because he's dangerous" but "because his arthritis is terrible today.") Maybe one of the reason that such trainers find horses dangerous is that they pick fights with them. P0M 02:23, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that the rider needs to run though the checklist of pain/comfort/horsemanship issues. However, some horses will rear simply as an attempt to be dominant over the rider. Horses do have minds and personalities of their own.
I wouldn't care to whump a rearing horse between the ears myself simply because having never done so, I would be afraid that the horse might rear even more and possibly fall over backwards with me. However, I have known of folks who have done that and cured the vice without harm to themselves or the horses. (I prefer to rein the horse low and wide into a tight circle while whumping him with my outside leg as the correction.) I don't think that the method that Marvin Roberts used was cruel. I think that the reason he suggested use of a piece of garden hose was because it would make a lot of noise but would be dull and light and not cut the horse. Even now, it is easy to find similar advice being offered, such as to smash a raw egg on the horse's head when he rears.
With regard to 'the local trainer' you mentioned, I wonder if this person lacks empathy with their family members as well?
Some of my clients have commented about how calm and affectionate most horses become after having been under my care for a few weeks. Their prior coaches were not deliberately cruel or inhumane people, yet after coming to me, their horses seemed to just settle down and become happier and more relaxed. I don't know what accounts for that.
One of my mantras is "Don't judge what the horse gives us as good or bad. It just is. Take what he gives us and work from there." Sometimes, while my friends and clients watch me working with various horses at different points in training, they'll make comments such as, "She's being stubborn!" Such comments always catch me by surprise because it never occurs to me to classify my equine students' behaviors that way. To say, "She's being stubborn," is unhelpful. It is like a programming 'stop point.' I'll explain that the horse simply may not understand what I want, that perhaps I have not made my request clear to the horse and that I can finesse her through it. Sometimes, I'll hear the "stubborn" observation when the horse is simply a quieter and less reactive horse.
Patrick, you wrote >If I'm tightening my horse's girth and she turns around to glare at me with open mouth, I do not interpret that action as aggression. It's her way of telling me that I'm hurting her enough that she's going to have to get herself away from the pain if I don't cut it out.
Your experience with your horse has shown you that this is her way of letting you know there is a problem. However, I am reminded of a spoiled mare that was brought to me to have some behavior issues fixed. Her teenage owner told me, "She'll act like she is going to bite you when you saddle her, but don't hit her because she doesn't mean it." The mare did try to take a chunk out of me and I impulsively and immediately whumped her on the neck with the flat of my hand. She never again offered me any resistance during saddling. I think most potential saddling issues can be avoided by using quality tack and pads correctly positioned, and by making girthing a very gradual process. The girth should be tightened just enough to keep the saddle on, then the horse should be walked out several paces and the girth tightened a little more.

Lil 08:24, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

The immediacy of response to aggressive action is important. Trauma need not be involved. I made an accidental discovery at Home Depot one time. I had found some blue plastic corrugated half inch conduit and I was thinking that it would make a really interesting noise if whipped around in a circle. I was twirling it and experiencing this effect when the blamed thing suddenly changed orbit on me and hit me right in the lips. It felt about like I had gotten hit with a golf club or something. Looking sheepishly around I was relieved to note that nobody seemed to have noticed. Then I decided that even if they hadn't noticed me hitting myself they would see the swollen lip and the bruise. But, wait, when I felt my lip I realized that it was perfectly o.k. The mass of the stuff is low enough that it gives you the sensation of really having been hit by something but doesn't actually damage anything. And, actually, there is no sensation of pain. In other words, it tricks your nervous system. That's not true, by the way, of garden hose. Garden hose is used by bad cops, prison guards, and other people who want to give a guy a painful beating that doesn't leave evidence of torture.
I've used an even lower mass "club" to break up fights between my two dogs. (The one I got from a rescue service survived "on the street" for a year, and she really learned to fight. On top of that the border collie in her goes into action on a pretty regular basis. The other dog grew up being dominated and run ragged by her until he got big enough to fight back.) It's about like hitting them with a soda straw, but they are terrified of it. On the other hand, the female once was chasing a goat in the pasture and banged my knee with her head while running at full speed. I was immediately walking funny, but she acted like she hadn't felt a thing. For both dogs and horses, it's not the pain as much as the fear of pain I think.
For some people it seems important to do damage to "give the animal a good lesson." My farrier has some good stories about people who have gone beyond disciplining a horse or dog to try to prove their "manhood" (or whatever the heck it is) by beating the poor animal into the ground. Then they learn that when their "possession" decides that the human is an actual enemy the animal has more than enough strength and courage to give the lordly human a serious injury. Better to give a stimulus that is sufficient to stop misbehavior, doesn't leave trauma, and then get off the subject. P0M 09:23, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

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