Talk:Montserrat
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[edit] Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board
I would like to announce the establishment of the Wikipedia:Caribbean Wikipedians' notice board. Anyone with an interest in the Caribbean is welcome to join in!! Guettarda 1 July 2005 13:37 (UTC)
[edit] Rename
As this island is named after the mountain in Spain, I propose that according to Wikipedia:Naming conventions and Wikipedia:Disambiguation#Topic_page_naming, this article should be retitled Montserrat (island), and the Montserrat (mountain) article be moved here. Any objections? --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 15:39, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
YES- dorrettydor96 Yes- Johngoryanderson5660 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.227.204 (talk) 17:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Poll
As there is some disagreement, I am reformatting this as a poll and listing it at Wikipedia:Current polls. Summary: Montserrat was originally a mountain in Spain, then an island nation in the Carribean was named after the mountain. However, it can be argued that the island nation is a more "searchable" topic than the mountain.
Please sign your name using three tildes (~~~) under the position you support, possibly adding a brief comment. If you are happy with more than one possibility, you may wish to sign your names to more than one place. Extended commentary should be placed below, in the section marked "Discussion".
- Keep current articles named as they are
- A search for "Montserrat" I suspect is more likely to be about the island of. No? CaribDigita 19:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- mountain can have a see also sentence at the top of article page -- max rspct 19:36, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- Link to a dab page from Montserrat (mountain), but make Montserrat (island) the default page. Nightstallion 19:55, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- Strong Disagree - the country of Montserrat is the most common usage of the name in English. First usage does not trump dominant usage. I am unaware of any country which does not get first claim to that country's name. Guettarda 20:06, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
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- see Georgia for one. Also Java is a much bigger island that's disambiguated. Peking Duck 20:10, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
- That's because of a partially US-centric bias in Wikipedia, I'd say. If anyone heard "Georgia" in Europe, I'm fairly sure the majority of people would first think of the sovereign state, then the part of the US. As for Java... Well, the language is in my opinion far more important than some minor Spanish mountain, isn't it? —
ナイトスタリオン ㇳ–ㇰ — 09:27, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
- That's because of a partially US-centric bias in Wikipedia, I'd say. If anyone heard "Georgia" in Europe, I'm fairly sure the majority of people would first think of the sovereign state, then the part of the US. As for Java... Well, the language is in my opinion far more important than some minor Spanish mountain, isn't it? —
- see Georgia for one. Also Java is a much bigger island that's disambiguated. Peking Duck 20:10, 7 August 2005 (UTC)
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- Montserrat the island is far more common than the mountain. I think it could either be treated like Saint Croix or Boston. Gruepig 21:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- Agree with the above, keep where they are. Markussep 12:02, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
- Move current article to Montserrat (island), move article currently at Montserrat (mountain) to Montserrat
- Actually, I now think that the island article should be Montserrat, West Indies (precedent at: Saint Thomas, United States Virgin Islands). DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:03, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
- Gyrofrog (talk) 19:00, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- The way it is now is wrong, and like ナイトスタリオン said, it's a US-centric bias, like 99% of the things in this Wikipedia (another example of this, is the article United States: it links to the United States of America; the official name of Mexico is also United States of Mexico, so following the Wikipedia's policy, United States should link to a disambiguation page. But what can you expect from a country whose name is United States of America? Maybe they think they are the only united states that exist in the whole continent). The anglosaxons are not the center of the world. The name Montserrat means Jagged Mountain in Catalan, and the island recieved this name because Cristòfol Colom was Catalan. Montserrat is not a minor mountain: it is the spiritual center of Catalonia, and treating it as a minor mountain and subordinating to such insignificant island, and more when the island owes its name to the Mountain, is an insult to the Catalans. In my opinion, all this discussion is pointless: Montserrat is a MOUNTAIN, and the Island of Montserrat is an island of the Caribbean. No matters if the ignorance of the anglosaxons reaches the point to ignore the mountain and attribute the whole meaning of Montserrat to the island; this kind of behaviour is not new in such people, but the wikipedia must be kept safe and unbiased. Onofre Bouvila 23:32, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Discussion
- Are you going to propose moving United Kingdom to United Kingdom, Europe too? Guettarda 20:08, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- Moved this comment, please see directions for discussions under "Poll" or at Wikipedia:Surveys. First of all, there's no need to get hostile or overreact; your comments and edit summary "reject first-world chauvanism" are extremely reactionary, when I am simply placing forward a proposal. A simple disagreement will be fine. Secondly, your example is not congruent to the matter at hand, not because of the country in question but because there is no need to disambiguate United Kingdom. If there was another encyclopedic topic named "United Kingdom" that preceded and was the geniture of the name of the country, then yes, I would definitely propose moving that article. However, as it stands, the example you give is clearly not analagous to the situation we have here. I just want to say, because you seem to be taking this personally, that this is not meant as an affront to the country, but I am simply trying to figure out the best name for this article based on policy. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:23, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
- You are putting forward a proposal that you would never put forward for a developed country. It isn't conscious bias, it's unconscious chauvanism. Policy is very clear - you use the most common name. Replacing a (relatively) well-known country with a (relatively) obscure mountain is contrary to the policy which you know well of using the most common name in English. It's not like you are a newbie - you've been an established presence here long before me. And look at United Kingdom (disambiguation) - apart from the United Kingdom of Great Britain etc., there's a Scadinavian entity several hundred years earlier. Boston redirects to Boston, Mass, not Boston, Lincolnshire. If you had started with any of the well-known examples, or if you were a newbie, I would see this as fair. But you are an old hand, and you chose to start with a small third world country. Quacks like a duck, as they say... Guettarda 20:42, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- OK, there's a reason I put up a poll, because I wanted to know what people think. Just so you know, I put forth renaming proposals wherever I see a problem (for example Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Comics#Ultimates'_Naming, and I proposed moving Main Page to Main page, but it wasn't successful). It just so happens that I was looking for Montserrat (the mountain) today, and it seemed odd to me that it was the origin of the name, but was a disambig page. That's all. If everyone else agrees that the articles should stay I have no problem with it. You seem to be taking this really personally, so I'm going to leave this alone and let the poll decide it, but your accusations of "chauvinism" on my part are completely unjustified; it's really just rude. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:51, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you find my comments rude, but the simple fact is that you proposed replacing a third world country with a mountain. You spat in our faces. If you thought that the mountain was somehow the more common usage in English, you could have said so, maybe backed it up with some evidence...not proposed a page move. If you want to ask people what they think, you ask them what they think - but instead you went straight to a poll, which makes consensus impossible. I did not intend to imply that you were intentionally insulting - the insult was in the unthinking dismissal of us. Maybe chauvinism was the wrong word. Maybe it was just unconscious bias against the third world, or against the Caribbean. I was wrong to propose motivation. But it's still an insult, but what's far more disturbing is that you obviously don't have a clue why it was insulting. Guettarda 22:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- Uhh, I asked if other people thought that a page should be moved, and you think i'm "spitting in your faces"? All I'm saying is, dude, chill the fuck out. I thought this was a discussion page, but apparently it's a soapbox for you to rant. You can go on imagining that everyone is slighting you in some unspeakable way, but the truth is, I found what I thought was a naming discrepancy, I wasn't sure, so I asked the community. Stop trying to villify my motives for some cause you've just created out of nowhere. Peace. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:52, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
- "Chill the fuck out" and "Peace". Nice juxtaposition - insulting obscenity followed by "peace", which makes it all better. Obviously you think that a mountain in Spain is more important that a nation in the Caribbean, otherwise you would not have raised the issue. And yes, it's a slap in the face - you chose this page to tell us what you think of us. If you had seriously wanted clarification on an issue of naming convention you would have taken this to the village pump, or the naming conventions pages, where the input would have been from people who's "thing" is naming. Bringing it here looks sneaky. Since your response is not "no offense intended", it was "well, I will bring myself to accept community consensus" - which is saying nothing, since we are all bound by that. And now insults an obscenities. But I'm somehow the one treating this page as a soapbox. If you did not have an agenda you would not have reacted the way you did. I was not villifying your actions, you did that all by yourself. And here I was thinking you were a decent and well-intentioned member of the community. How stupid of me. Guettarda 15:44, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
- Uhh, I asked if other people thought that a page should be moved, and you think i'm "spitting in your faces"? All I'm saying is, dude, chill the fuck out. I thought this was a discussion page, but apparently it's a soapbox for you to rant. You can go on imagining that everyone is slighting you in some unspeakable way, but the truth is, I found what I thought was a naming discrepancy, I wasn't sure, so I asked the community. Stop trying to villify my motives for some cause you've just created out of nowhere. Peace. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 14:52, July 26, 2005 (UTC)
- I'm sorry that you find my comments rude, but the simple fact is that you proposed replacing a third world country with a mountain. You spat in our faces. If you thought that the mountain was somehow the more common usage in English, you could have said so, maybe backed it up with some evidence...not proposed a page move. If you want to ask people what they think, you ask them what they think - but instead you went straight to a poll, which makes consensus impossible. I did not intend to imply that you were intentionally insulting - the insult was in the unthinking dismissal of us. Maybe chauvinism was the wrong word. Maybe it was just unconscious bias against the third world, or against the Caribbean. I was wrong to propose motivation. But it's still an insult, but what's far more disturbing is that you obviously don't have a clue why it was insulting. Guettarda 22:13, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- OK, there's a reason I put up a poll, because I wanted to know what people think. Just so you know, I put forth renaming proposals wherever I see a problem (for example Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Comics#Ultimates'_Naming, and I proposed moving Main Page to Main page, but it wasn't successful). It just so happens that I was looking for Montserrat (the mountain) today, and it seemed odd to me that it was the origin of the name, but was a disambig page. That's all. If everyone else agrees that the articles should stay I have no problem with it. You seem to be taking this really personally, so I'm going to leave this alone and let the poll decide it, but your accusations of "chauvinism" on my part are completely unjustified; it's really just rude. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:51, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
- You are putting forward a proposal that you would never put forward for a developed country. It isn't conscious bias, it's unconscious chauvanism. Policy is very clear - you use the most common name. Replacing a (relatively) well-known country with a (relatively) obscure mountain is contrary to the policy which you know well of using the most common name in English. It's not like you are a newbie - you've been an established presence here long before me. And look at United Kingdom (disambiguation) - apart from the United Kingdom of Great Britain etc., there's a Scadinavian entity several hundred years earlier. Boston redirects to Boston, Mass, not Boston, Lincolnshire. If you had started with any of the well-known examples, or if you were a newbie, I would see this as fair. But you are an old hand, and you chose to start with a small third world country. Quacks like a duck, as they say... Guettarda 20:42, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
- Moved this comment, please see directions for discussions under "Poll" or at Wikipedia:Surveys. First of all, there's no need to get hostile or overreact; your comments and edit summary "reject first-world chauvanism" are extremely reactionary, when I am simply placing forward a proposal. A simple disagreement will be fine. Secondly, your example is not congruent to the matter at hand, not because of the country in question but because there is no need to disambiguate United Kingdom. If there was another encyclopedic topic named "United Kingdom" that preceded and was the geniture of the name of the country, then yes, I would definitely propose moving that article. However, as it stands, the example you give is clearly not analagous to the situation we have here. I just want to say, because you seem to be taking this personally, that this is not meant as an affront to the country, but I am simply trying to figure out the best name for this article based on policy. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 20:23, July 25, 2005 (UTC)
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- The statement about "Saint Thomas, United States Virgin Islands" being a reason to replace 'Mountain' with 'Island' isn't exactly valid. Saint Thomas is a part of the USVI. So technically saying "Saint Thomas, United States Virgin islands". Is no different then saying: Miami, Florida, Los Angeles, California, Atlanta, Georgia. Many other countries are named after something else. And not to be comfrontational. But, I only came along and found the part about Montserrat "being named after a Mountain in Spain" but do we know that fact is true? Under that same logic wouldn't it just make more sense to rename Montserrat_(Mountain) to Montserrat, Spain? CaribDigita
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- Actually it already appears someone has proposed to move "Montserrat (mountain)" instead to "Montserrat, Spain"? on Talk:Montserrat_(mountain), which I think-- would be under Wikipedia local naming conventions? CaribDigita
- There are a lot of links to Montserrat. Undoing them seems like a lot of work. Josh Parris ✉ 01:38, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
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- Judging by the passion shown for the island of Montserrat I imagine that this page has readers who know a lot about the history of the island of Montserrat. May I humbly request, therefore, any information that anyone may have on a certain James Mead, for a long time treasurer and later president or at least acting president of the island between 1950 and 1890 approximately (should be able to reedit this with more precise dates in a day or two)? Have fun with the naming debate! If you want an 'impartial' (which you could also read as 'ignorant') opinion I'd say that the name of a country has priority over that of a mountain. If I remember rightly Montserrat is in catalunya, which isn't a country either (yet). I imagine Montserrat the island is bigger than Montserrat the mountain. Perhaps you could judge it by how much ash each one produces: Montserrat the island wins again. Don't really understand why the mountain should take precedence over the island therefore.
[edit] How Irish is Montserrat?
There is a three part series under the above title in the Irish Roots magazine. Information about the editions in question is here: http://www.iol.ie/~irishrts/Archive%20Of%20Irish%20Roots.htm Beir Bua! El Gringo 18:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
(Re-edited with dates:)Judging by the passion shown for the island of Montserrat I imagine that this page has readers who know a lot about the history of the island of Montserrat. May I humbly request, therefore, any information that anyone may have on a certain James Meade, treasurer and later president or at least acting president of the island from 1880, deceased 1890. Have fun with the naming debate! If you want an 'impartial' (which you could also read as 'ignorant') opinion I'd say that the name of a country has priority over that of a mountain. If I remember rightly Montserrat is in catalunya, which isn't a country either (yet). I imagine Montserrat the island is bigger than Montserrat the mountain. Perhaps you could judge it by how much ash each one produces: Montserrat the island wins again. Don't really understand why the mountain should take precedence over the island therefore.
Maybe this might be just one reason why Mt. Montserrat should take precedence...again depending on an individual's interests for posterity's sake...one of Montserrat's hermits from Spain, accompanied Christopher Columbus, who dedicated one of the first churches in the New World to the Virgin of Montserrat, where an island today bears the name. The same Isle., If I may presume, from which everyone is referring....-Gil- —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.63.104.245 (talk) 06:24:00, August 19, 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Montserrat Pictures.
Please refer to Talk:Volcano discussion on pictures. If you may be interested let me know. Subject of course to a favourable licencing decision on the continuing availability of my pictures on Wikipedia. Also for really worthwhile projects I may be willing to put a small number of low res pix into the public domain.
[edit] "forced" Migration & Volcanic Activities
- What prompted its people to begin emigrating from the colony?
- Did it happen before the eruption began?
- Whom, if anyone, were they forced by?
- Were there other signs of volcanic activity before the erruption?
- Are they back on the path to eventual independence now?
As far as I know - forced by the wish to avoid death under tons of volcanic ash and I was not aware the the Monserrat was on a path to independence....
- Independence may happen for Montserrat one day... [1](See the last part of the history section) The Volcano situation was the last nail in the coffin for independence talks right now, but it could come up again when more islanders complain from time to time about British domination of the island.[2] CaribDigita 13:32, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
British Domination?! Is that the same as sending a big fat cheque every year? There would be very little said in Britian to independence - I am not sure the majority of people would even notice. The fact is that the territory needs the money.
[edit] Proposed WikiProject
There is now a proposed WikiProject for the Caribbean area, including Montserrat, at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Caribbean. Interested parties should add their names there so we can determine if there is enough interest to start such a project in earnest. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 17:02, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Where is the source for the "Crown Colony of," title? As in "Crown Colony of Montserrat"
What source says Montserrat is currently titled "The Crown Colony of Montserrat"???? As far as I know Montserrat has a Chief Minister so it can't be a "Crown Colony".
Crown Colony would mean the British Parliament closed down the Montserrat government completely. CaribDigita 13:22, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- The official name according to the CIA World Factbook and British government documents (including The Montserrat Constitution Order 1989) is 'Montserrat'. If you wanted to be descriptive as to status, then it looks from .gov.uk sources that the correct term is "United Kingdom Overseas Territory of Montserrat", but that isn't an official name. 136.2.1.101 14:21, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Montserrat is a "Crown Protectorate"
[edit] Article split
This article should be made into a disambiguation page, due to the fact there is another Montserrat, in Greater Manchester, United Kingdom, here.
Would anyone support/oppose this proposal?? --sunstar nettalk 11:09, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
- Create one at Montserrat (disambiguation). Guettarda 19:27, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
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- Done. Guettarda 19:33, 12 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Population
There seems to be a lack of agreement regarding the population. This page currently gives a value of "4,4882" The CIA World Factbook puts it at 9,538, while the list of countries by population cites a UN estimate of 5900. Also, this page gives the country's rank as 216th, not 225th as given in this article. Either way, I only found one website giving 4,488 as the population, and the site notes that this was the estimate in 2005. --Pyrochem 14:50, 20 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Joseph Sturge
He died in 1859, Montserrat article says he founded Montserrat Company in 1869! Was it perhaps a son? Or just a misprint. I will investigate further. Neilhow 15:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- I think it might be a son Joseph Sturge (1847 – 1934) see eg. http://slaveryonmontserrat.blogspot.com/2007/08/more-sturge-montserrat-stuff.html which makes the link to Joseph Sturge in the article inappropriate do you not agree? Neilhow 16:01, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
- Help now I'm confused - I think it might be the correct Joseph Sturge but 1857 not 1869 as in article - I also think he would be more appropriately described as perhaps "Quaker anti-slavery activist" - see http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=12743&CONTENT_ITEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=11004 & original Sturge family documents at http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/GenerateContent?CONTENT_ITEM_ID=2046&CONTENT_ITEM_TYPE=0&MENU_ID=10596 Neilhow 17:03, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
