Talk:Monmouthshire (historic)

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Contents

[edit] general geographic area

" remains in use as a general geographic area " might imply it is shown on maps. which it isn't. we need to make it clear it's not shown on maps. Morwen - Talk 11:28, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't directly imply that - it implies that people use it when referring to the area. There are plenty of things that don't appear on modern OS maps, such as Berkshire, Merseyside, &c that people may use to refer to an area, and plenty of things that do appear on maps, such as Caerphilly, Halton, &c that people don't use! In any case it depends where you source your map data from! Owain (talk) 11:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English status

I have added the English traditional counties box to the page, as Monmouthshire's status was ambiguous before the creation of Gwent. If you have anty issues with this, feel free to raise them here. Marky-Son 14:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The only problem being that Monmouthshire isn't listed in the box! Lozleader 14:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have now added it. Lozleader 14:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Thanks, I didn't know how to do it. I thought it appeared by magic for a few minutes there. Marky-Son 14:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] So what do the locals think?

I find Monmouthshire's ambiguous status weirdly fascinating - although one thing missing amidst the legal detail is any mention of what the people who actually live there think about the issue. Are there any published facts or figures suggesting what proportion of the population think of themselves as Welsh or English or are bothered about which they are classed under? The dry academic study of the issue is interesting in itself but without the views of the populace it isn't clear if this is just an interesting if obscure point of law or something a bit more vital. It's easy to understand people liking or not liking how the place they live is classified or governed; it's less easy to imagine them not being quite sure what it's supposed to be classed as! -- Jellyman 22:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

There's some ambiguity in some parts of the county, but generally this is no doubt that this is Wales. You can roughly divide the county into three parts: the Monmouth/Abergavenny/Usk planes to the east; Newport and surrounding areas; and the Rhymney/Islwyn/Ebbw Vale Valleys areas.

I'm sure that there are plenty of people in Monmouth/Abergavenny that believe that they are in England. There may even be some in Newport/Cwmbran, although my experience of people there is that they consider themselves Welsh, albeit 'Anglicised' Welsh. They certainly don't speak Welsh, and often don't even pronounce the names of the towns they live in in the Welsh way, but come 6 Nations time and there's no doubt that they're supporting Wales not England. The Valleys areas though are unmistakably Welsh and in many ways define our notion of Wales. The idea of towns like Tredegar, Ebbw Vale, Blaenavon, Abertillary or Pontypool being part of England, or of Neil Kinnock, Aneurin Bevan or the Pontypool front-row being Englishmen would be a strange notion to any person that I've met that lived there.

I'm not sure that there has ever been a poll, or any referencable evidence that would confirm this but I have no doubt that it is correct. Anyone, English or Welsh, will tell you that if you go over the Severn Bridge you are going from England to Wales.--RJP1979 14:19, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I am Newport born and bred and I am Welsh. One must take into account the majority (I think) of people in the "new Monmouthshire" were actually born in England, compare this to Blaenau Gwent which is 92% Welsh-born, the highest in Wales and Newport is somewhere inbetween.
I have met a couple of people from Newport that consider themselves English, but this isn't the case with the majority. It may be a generational thing, those born before the 70's are more likely to consider themselves English but my father still considers himself Welsh. There is definately dislike distrust for the Welsh Assembly from many people in the county, but this doesn't mean they're not proud to be Welsh. The fact our 1st language is English doesn't mean much because it's the same in other parts of Wales that have always been considered Welsh. Marky-Son 15:55, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Not sure if the English Democrats Party vote in the assembly elections is an accurate reflection:
  • Newport East 2.2%
  • Newport West 2.7%
  • Monmouth 2.7%[1]
They didn't stand in Islwyn, Blaenau Gwent, Torfaen or which ever Cardiff constituency includes the bit east of the Rumney.
They got 0.9% in South Wales East.

Lozleader 09:19, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

"also polling far less than Plaid Cymru which received between 7.1% and 10.4% of the vote in the same constituencies."

Someone removed the level of the plaid vote it was clearly relevant so I restored it in that if the level of the English democrat support has any relevance to the question then so does the numbers voting Plaid in the same election. --84.13.77.172 23:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

One thing the article doesn't mention is that the town of Monmouth itself was part of England prior to the Norman invasion. Infact it's been part of England as long as other places such as Northumberland have. Whilst parts of Monmouthshire might be Welsh, the area around Monmouth itself is and has been English for a very long time. It's not listed in the Domesday Book for nothing. Perhaps the article could relfect that parts of Monmouthshire were England and parts were Wales and they ended up being combined together over time into one county.--Gothicform 05:34, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is there one single view?

Often a rejoinder to "Monmouthshire is historically in England" is "try telling that to someone in a pub in Newport" (although historically given the different English & Welsh licensing laws, said person might prefer it to be in England when the pubs are closed in Wales!) or in Blackwood, but it's telling that these are in the west of the county.

A friend has just written a piece on this and come to the conclusion that the east and west of the county have more in common (culturally, politically etc..) with their neighbours over the county border than with each other - the west is heavily Welsh, the east is mixed. A copy is in a note on Facebook: http://qmul.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=4973591039&pwstdfy=e27a6e2ef8cd5c8a7de2bed68957dd84&ref=nf

Incidentally it wasn't just the Oxford circuit that made Monmouthshire "English" - the county was given the status of an English county by Henry VIII and so had two MPs at Westminster like English counties, not the single one the Welsh counties got, and the higher taxation for England. Timrollpickering 11:32, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dual Status

The motto of Monmouthshire county council translated into English is "Faithful to both", which of course is reference to its double allegience to England and Wales (as are the lion and dragon; the leek and the rose which also appear on its amorial bearings).

So...

I don't know if its still the case but if you were born in Monmouthshire you could either play for Wales or England.

[edit] Deletion

I have deleted an addition at the bottom of the page that was incredibly POV, mentioning things like the 'cock-up' of 1974 and other statements. To use a POV phrase myself it was total drivel. Darkmind1970 (talk) 10:51, 20 December 2007 (UTC)