Talk:Mongolia Proper

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I think what is meant in this article is Greater Mongolia. Greater Mongolia seems to also be the much more common english term (is there even a term for Mongolia proper in Mongolian?). I propose to put the list from this article into the intro sentence of that other article, and delete this one. Any objections?—Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaan (talk • contribs)

What is Mongolia proper? The Mongol territories were not defined until the Qing dynasty, so I suggest this list be deleted or renamed.--Amban 04:37, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
The article is English for "Mengjiang", not for the puppet-state, but for territories with Mongols residing traditionally, which makes it "Mongol proper". The areas have some Mongol legislature in some kind. Greater Mongolia would tend to Great Tartary including Kazakhstan, Uzbekstan and many other.--Dagvadorj —Preceding comment was added at 09:12, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
At the Moment, the Greater Mongolia article deals exactly with those areas that are inhabited by Mongols, and I tend to think this also is the correct definition of Greater Mongolia in English. I never came across the term Mongol proper, so I suspect it is a neologism. Again, is there even a Mongolian term for it? Yaan 09:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC)
OK I agree on that, though let's extend Greater Mongolia article! It must explain areas in detail. Dagvadorj 09:23, 30 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.75.80.229 (talk)

I would like to see someone giving a credible academic use for the term "Mongol Proper" before we expand this article. There are already several articles on Mongolia and I don't see the need for yet another one, just like I don't see the need for several overlapping articles about China.--Amban 15:17, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the terms "Greater Mongolia" and "Mongolia Proper" just as any "Greater something" and "something Proper" are very-very context-sensitive. The article should start with a statement defining the context. Then we'll be able to contribute. Gantuya eng 05:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] According to Wiktionary

According to wiktionary "proper" as used in Mongol proper or China proper seems to mean "in the very strictest sense of the word". The examples given are "According to the Supreme Court, tomatoes do not belong to the fruits proper." and "The school is located in the town proper."

So, shouldn't this page really be a redirect to Mongolia? Yaan (talk) 18:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Oppose! Mongolia is just a part of the Mongol proper. Rather it should maybe redirected to Greater Mongolia, but regions must be listed like here. Dagvadorj (talk) 11:47, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Dagvadorj

I think we need the advice of an native english speaker here to confirm what 'proper' means in this case. Google seems to confirm that "Mongolia proper" only refers to Mongol Uls: google. If you have no objection, I could ask for some third opinion. Regards, Yaan (talk) 14:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, although its name is "Mongolia", the republic of Mongolia is only part of Mongolia, because in reality it's Khalha only and even not whole of Khalha, but just Northern Khalha, the piece inherited to prince Gersenz. Why don't they call it "Republic of Northern Khalha"? Isn't the name "Mongolia" for this state deceptive. Mongolia Proper refers to the 6 tumens of Dayan Khan and Jungaria. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:29, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Would you object if I asked for a third Opinion? Yaan (talk) 15:35, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Bitte. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
But what would the nativeness of the English speaker do with this topic? This is an issue of which context we should choose, not a lexical issue. It's "собственно Монголия"--there is no problem in understanding the word. Gantuya eng (talk) 15:51, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't speak russian. But I think it's really a semantic issue. Yaan (talk) 15:58, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
We don't need someone to explain us the meaning of the word "proper".
Maybe I do. Yaan (talk) 16:12, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
"Eigentliche Mongolei". Richtig?Gantuya eng (talk) 16:37, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I would like to have that confirmed by a native speaker. Yaan (talk) 16:39, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
I am actually wondering now what "Germany proper" would have referred to before 1990. Yaan (talk) 16:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually this was talk between you and Dagvadorj. Aren't I the third opinion? I thought that's why I'm here. Gantuya eng (talk) 16:45, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Hehe, there is a Wikipedia:Third Opinion site. You don't count, I want someone completely uninvolved ;). And a native English speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaan (talk • contribs) 16:50, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Don't want another English language teacher from Peace Corps;). See you later. Gantuya eng (talk) 16:53, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
See you. Yaan (talk) 16:57, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third Opinion

If Mongol proper and Greater Mongolia are identical regions, I would suggest merging it. If they aren't, I'd leave the article in place, although I might change the intro text from "Mongol proper refers to:" to "Mongol proper encompasses the following areas:". As the text appears now, it suggests that "Mongol proper" has several different meanings, which would be slightly confusing to the average English reader, as using the term "proper" in this context conveys a very specific area. Justin chat 11:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree, the two articles clearly talk about the same thing, so I added the respective merge tags. And although I'm not technically a native English speaker, the word "proper" implies something specific and concrete, and not just an abstract concept like this here. "Mongolia Proper" would normally be the country of Mongolia, in contrast to the rest of Greater Mongolia. I've never before seen "Mongolia Proper" being used as a synonym for "Greater Mongolia". Because of that, I suggest that after the information has been merged, this page is made into a redirect to Mongolia --Latebird (talk) 09:37, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Name change

The geographic name is Mongolia, not Mongol. It should be Mongolia Proper. Also I'll delete some regions that I don't think part of Mongolia Proper. Gantuya eng (talk) 11:54, 14 December 2007 (UTC)