Talk:Mongol raids into Palestine

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[edit] Merge

Recommending merge of Mulay and Kutlushah into this article. Neither one of them has sufficient independent information to really justify separate articles at this time. Instead, they both list large quantities of sources that are either only peripherally relevant, or in most cases have nothing to do whatsoever with the topic. --Elonka 22:28, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The few scraps of biographical information on these two commanders ought to be merged with this article. Aramgar (talk) 23:05, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

I think they are fine as separate articles, but as always, the sources and footnotes need to be greatly reduced. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:35, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree Mulay and Kutlushah deserve their separate articles. I will bring more biographical information soon. PHG (talk) 16:12, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Adam that they are fine where they are, but the sources at least need to be restricted to those actually of use. Srnec (talk) 00:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dispute

It is my feeling that the article makes too-heavy use of primary sources, in order to push a POV about a possible Mongol capture of Jerusalem. I have attempted to copyedit the article,[1][2] but PHG (talk · contribs) is simply reverting me and re-inserting his own information.[3][4] Rather than continuing to edit war, I am bringing the situation here to talk. What do other editors think? --Elonka 19:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

As written, this article looks like a POV fork created so that PHG can pursue his idiosyncratic theories about the capture of Jerusalem. The article definitely overuses primary sources. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:05, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I've read this version of the article, and it looks OK to me. Specifically, wording such as "temporarily successful", "a period of time of a few months", "appeared to have no intention on either occasion of integrating Palestine into the Mongol administrative system, and a few months after the Syrian invasions, the Mamluk forces returned from Egypt and reoccupied the area with little resistance.", "modern historians believe that though Jerusalem may have been subject to at least one Mongol raid during this time, that it was not otherwise occupied or formally conquered.", seem to be better presented than the Franco-Mongol alliance article that lead to the arbcom case. The sections "The fate of Jerusalem in 1300" and "European rumors about Jerusalem" also make things a lot clearer. I actually think this article is one of the better ones at presenting information in a structured and coherent way. I've learnt a lot about this period of history that I didn't know before (and yes, I know the next article or book I read might say something different), but I do think articles like this, while maybe not completely accurate, do help to remove some of the myths and common perceptions among the public about this period of history. Carcharoth (talk) 09:59, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I worked hard to find wording that was neutral, and covered the different opinions of modern scholarship in an appropriate way. --Elonka 10:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Elonka, I appreciate the work you've done to make the article neutral, but I think this article, like others that PHG created, is inherently a POV fork--Mongol activity in Palestine is a footnote to the invasions of Syria, and devoting an article of this length to them is giving undue weight to the subject. I'd rather see the material cut down, and integrated into Mongol invasions of Syria. --Akhilleus (talk) 16:14, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

That was more informative than your first comment. I wasn't sure why you said "POV fork" at first. It would have helped if you had mentioned the Mongol invasions of Syria article in your first comment - not everyone knows what articles exist around these topics. Carcharoth (talk) 17:27, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

We also have to be careful about applying WP:UNDUE to articles and across series of articles and to Wikipedia as a whole. Sometimes an appearance of undue weight appears when some articles are not yet finished or haven't been written. It helps to layout what you would see as proper weighting across an entire period of history and set of articles, and then identify the areas where things need to be either expanded or cutback. Difficult, but probably needed here. Carcharoth (talk) 17:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry for being unclear at first. If you've been following the Franco-Mongol alliance arbitration case, you can see that User:PHG has been busy creating a bunch of articles related to the supposed Franco-Mongol alliance, and inserting references to the alliance in a bunch more articles. The result is that a fairly minor aspect of the history of this period is being treated as if it's the most important thing that happened.

You make a good point that this article might not give undue weight in the context of a fully developed series of articles about the Mongol invasions. This is an area of history I'm not very familiar with, so I'm not going to be very dogmatic about this, but I think that the Mongol raids in Palestine are a minor matter, and tightly connected with their invasions of Syria, so I'd prefer to see the material from this article merged into Mongol invasions of Syria. But if others feel differently, I'm not going to be too upset. The big problems with the article--the overuse of primary sources, and the obvious POV problems--have been fixed already. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:39, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the tags, since I think that the major concerns have been addressed. Did anyone still have any outstanding issues that we need to talk about? --Elonka 06:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading image

Both of the (PHG-created) maps in the article are fairly misleading. Starting with just the first one about 1260, it implies that the Mongols invaded all the way through Palestine, engaging in a series of major battles all the way to Gaza. However, mainstream history is that the key battles were just in Aleppo and Damascus, at which point the majority of the Mongol Army withdrew, and a much smaller force under Kitbuqa proceeded as far as Ain Jalut, where they were engaged by the Mamluks and decisively defeated. I am unaware of any major confrontations at Baalbeck or Aljun (unless this is referring to the Battle of Ain Jalut?), and there was no battle at Gaza at all. The Mongols did send raiding parties southwards during this period, and set up a small garrison in Gaza for a few months, but when the Mamluks advanced northward from Egypt, the Mongols fled from Gaza without resistance. I recommend either improving or replacing the map to something more accurate, or if we can't find anything, I think we should remove it from the article, and possibly nominate it for deletion on Commons. To be specific, the map needs at least the following changes:

• It should indicate that the majority of the Mongol Army withdrew before Ain Jalut (so it needs a much smaller arrow from Damascus southwards).
• Remove the "clash" marks at Baalbek and Gaza
• Remove the word Aljun
• Remove or drastically reduce the arrow pointing to Gaza
• Indicate something of the Mamluk troop movements at the time, coming north towards Acre to engage the Mongols at Ain Jalut (this would also be a useful image to have at the Battle of Ain Jalut article)

The second map in the article has WP:UNDUE issues as well, but I figured I'd start with the first one since it's easier. What do other editors think? Get rid of it? Or keep it for now because it's better than nothing? --Elonka 19:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

• The arrows already get smaller, but the contrast could be heightened.
• The clash marks need to be defined in the key. Maybe we'd know where they ought to be if we knew exactly what they were for.
• Is there a significance to Aljun? Why remove it? But why is it there?
• Keep a small arrow into Gaza, perhaps looping around and pointing back out.
• Sounds great.

I think the map ought to be improved and kept/replaced, but not yet removed. Is there anybody with the abilities to fix it? (And the other one?) Srnec (talk) 04:44, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

We could ask User:MapMaster. He excels at this type of thing, as his name suggests. Kafka Liz (talk) 09:52, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

RE: 'Ajlūn and Ajlun Castle. This place is one of a series of Mamluk fortifications destroyed during the invasion and later rebuilt by Baybars. I am not sure why it is emphasized on the map when the other fortifications are not. See Reuven Amitai-Preiss, Mongols and Mamluks: the Mamluk-Īlkhānid War 1260-1281 (Cambridge University Press, 1995), pp. 33, 76.

The location of 'Ayn Jālūt ought to be adjusted: it is west of the Jordan and southeast of the Sea of Galilee. Perhaps its importance should be emphasized with some sort of symbol for battle. With User:Srnec I am unsure of the significance of the little red "blasts". I support the other changes mentioned above. Aramgar (talk) 12:27, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

I have moved to my work computer and have only now noticed the little circle, in more or less the correct location, representing 'Ayn Jālūt. It should be noted that 'Ayn Jālūt is a very small place, only important as near the site of the battle. The circle ought to be replaced with the little crossed-sword symbol used to represent the location of battles on maps. I really do not like the red "blast" symbols. Aramgar (talk) 13:10, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Upon the request of Kafka Liz I have created a map of the 1260 Mongol engagements that I am hoping you all will find suitable. While adding it to the article, I also added a bit of information from Amitai about Kitbuga's smaller campaign in mid-1260. I would be happy to discuss any aspect of this map further or to make changes as necessary. What do you think? MapMaster (talk) 02:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

P.S. I'd also like to make additional maps, of the Ain Jalut campaign as well as something to replace the other map in the article.

I personally think it's a big improvement, thank you for your work.  :) --Elonka 04:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)