Talk:Mongol Empire

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[edit] Koryo as part of Mongol Empire

As a Korean guy who was taught of Korean history in Korean middle school, I was taught that even though Koryo's royal court had surrendered to Mongol Empire, and became the tributary state to Mongol Empire, Koryo retained its independent governance at the price of being royal son-in-law state of Mongol royal court. So does that make Koryo as a part of Mongol Empire even though it had its own King and government? It sure was much different from what China had gone through at that time. China didn't have their own King or Emperor, Han chinese were colonized by Mongol Empire so Chinese state didn't exist during the period of Mongol rule. However, Koryo retained its own royal court even after the fall of Mongol Empire and had retained its lineage since its foundation until the rise of Chosun dynasty. If Koryo was a part of Mongol Empire, it doesn't make sense, does it? Or is it the same case for the most of other nations at that time? Please enlighten me with the detailed history of Eastern Europe and Arab regions at that time, because I am not sure whether other parts of Mongol empire were allowed to have their own King and retain its own governance at the price of being royal son-in-law state or just being colonized without their own government.

Isn't Chosun much earlier dynasty? Temur (talk) 19:34, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
You can say Han Chinese were colonized by Mongol before Kublai Khan's reign. When Kublai Khan founded the Yuan Dynasty, Kublai Khan (and his successors) was officially the emperor of Yuan China, although not ethnic Chinese. But anyway, according to the traditional Chinese ideology, anyone who attains the "Mandate of Heaven" can rule as the emperor. And Kublai did claim that and ruled as Emperor of China, so China at this time had emperors, although not native ones. As for Koryo, the things were very different. Korea became an independent country long time ago, but it was also an tributary state of China for a long time until the end of the 19th century. In this aspect, although Korea was an independent state, it was also a subordinate of the Celestial Empire according to the traditional values, at least nominally. Kublai, like native emperors of China, didn't attempt to annihilate Koryo, but instead just requested the Koryo/Korea to be a subordinate and pay tributes. So Koryo still had its own kings. This was kind of similar to what happened to Korea when Manchu Qing Dynasty was established in northeast China.--207.112.51.98 (talk) 06:21, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


[edit] Organization

The organization of this article is a total mess. It ought to describe the reigns of the different khans in rough chronological order, including descriptions of the individual military campaigns, rather than the current weird topical organization. Then it can go on and describe the histories of each of the major divisions. john k (talk) 21:41, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

This article and the one about Genghis Khan are in a constantly bad shape. If you want to do anything about it, please do. I somehow lack the enthusiasm. Yaan (talk) 09:47, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Technological Achievements?

The statement "The Mongol Empire is also responsible for many technological achievements that are in wide use today." lacks any facts or examples, except for the adjoining, sourceless claim: "In addition, they discovered a unique way to increase the population of fish in a given body of water.". I would recommend the first statement be removed until it is substantiated.

[edit] Viet

The article currently gives the impression that the Mongols destroyed the Kingdom, while History of Vietnam gives the impression that they only suffered defeats (I am assuming that Viet and Dai Viet are just two different terms for the same state?). Which one is correct? Yaan (talk) 12:03, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Khagan

It's true that the Mongol Empire was ONCE joined by a Great Khan (or Khagan). The five Great Khan are (in order): Genghis Khan, Ögedei Khan, Guyuk Khan, Mongke Khan, and Kublai Khan, who was the last Great Khan. During Kublai Khan's reign (actually from the beginning at 1260), the Mongol Empire was already in the processing of splitting, with only Ilkhanate recognizing Kublai Khan as the Great Khan, whereas all other khanates (Chagatai Khanate and Golden Hord) didn't recognize and even fought again him. When Kublai Khan died, and no more accepted Great Khan existed, all khanates (including lkhanate) were formally splitted up, as explained in the main article. Even Kublai Khan's successors didn't attempt to sommon the kurultai to claim the title of Khagan, but ruled as emperor of the Yuan Dynasty instead. So by this time Mongol Empire was fragmented and indeed existed in theory only.--128.100.109.52 (talk) 19:28, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that one Ilkhan tried to gain approval from the successor of Khubilai, and got it. I will try to look up sources, but it will take some days. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yaan (talk • contribs) 21:41, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Btw. how do I have to imagine the formal split of the empire? Did Khubilai or his successor send documents to each of the other Khans and released them to independence? Yaan (talk) 21:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't say if one Ilkhan indeed tried to gain approval and got it (please try to look up sources if you can), but if it was really the case, then the only possibility seems to be Baydu, who however only ruled Ilkhante for only 4-5 months in 1295, and was executed on the same year. The khan before Baydu was Gaykhatu, who ruled from 1291 to 1295, so he had no need to get any approval from the successor of Kublai. Gaykhatu even tried to introduce paper money to Ilkhante, but was a complete failure and disaster, and he himself was assassinated shortly after. The khan after Baydu was Ghazan, who managed to take power after a civil war in 1295 and executed Baydu. He reorganized the khanate and actively converted the entire country to Islam, and prosecuted all other faiths as soon as he got power from the civil war. He obviously did not try to get approval from the successor of Khubilai.
As for the formal split of the empire, it can happen in several ways. For example: separate king for each kingdom, and no "overlord" who can join them together exists. Even in the case of personal union, these entities are considered separate and sovereign states. With each khan for each khanate, and the a absence of a great khan after Kublai ("the last great khan"), the empire was formally and permanently splitted. Consider the example of Roman Empire. It was divided into Western Roman Empire and Eastern Roman Empire in 286. However, the Roman Empire was not permanently splitted until Theodosius I, the last Roman Emperor who ruled over a unified Roman Empire, died in 395. After 395, both the Western Roman Empire and the Eastern Roman Empire are considered independent from each other, since they were not joined together by an "overlord". The Mongol Empire was kind of similar in this aspect, as explained above.--128.100.109.22 (talk) 22:45, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
I will look up the bit on the Ilkhans, but I think the wording in "By the time of Kublai Khan's death, the Mongol Empire was formally splitted into four separate khanates." is rather misleading. I think what you mean is that the empire had already de facto split up. What it sounds like is that, upon Khubilai's death, someone released the other Khanates into independence, or that they declared their independence upon Khubilai's death. I think it would be more accurate to write ""By the time of Kublai Khan's death, the Mongol Empire had already split up into four separate khanates." - unless we find sources that describe the formalities involved in the split-up of the empire. Yaan (talk) 23:09, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Good point about the wording, I think. The word "formally" was originally used as a response to the IP user 71.229.195.124's statement "the joint property of khagan, Kublai Khan, it didn't became independent". By using "formally", I was roughly saying "so then, after the death of Kublai Khan, the last khagan, they did become independent after all". Yes, I admit this usage was somewhat informal in another sense, unless more sources are found. "By the time of Kublai Khan's death, the Mongol Empire had already split up into four separate khanates." is more accurate in a general sense.--128.100.109.9 (talk) 02:04, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
All right, after our changes, it now reads "However, by that time the empire had already fragmented, with the Golden Horde and the Chagatai Khanate being de facto independent and refusing to accept Kublai Khan as Khagan. By the time of Kublai Khan's death, with no accepted Khagan existed, the Mongol Empire had already splitted up into four separate khanates", which stated the two steps: during the time of Kublai Khan's rule and after the time Kublai Khan died.--128.100.109.9 (talk) 02:32, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
By the way, Ghazan of Ilkhanate did renounce all allegiance to the Great Khan after he converted to Islam in 1295[1].--128.100.109.9 (talk) 05:01, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Micheal Weiers, Die Mongolen im Iran, in Michael Weiers (editor), Die Mongolen. Beitraege zu ihrer Geschichte und Kultur, Darmstadt 1986, p.323ff states that beginning with Gaikhatu, the Ilkhans did not await their appointment from Beijing before declaring themselves Khan. Weiers also states that Ghazan began using a new title on the coins he had made etc., but describes these steps towards independence as rather informal ("formlos"). However, the Ilkhans and Yuan dynasty did remain friendly, and Oljeitu Temur sent the Ilkhan Oljeitu an official seal in 1304 (ibd. p.333). So while none of the later Ilkhans actively sought approval from Beijing, one of them at least received it. Yaan (talk) 16:53, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
Good information. Just a quick note, remaining friendly to some degree and being a vessel are different concepts. Ilkhans no longer sought approval from anyone else, as Ilkhanate started to become independent and Khagans ceased to exist. Sending a seal once later in the history may represent a symbolic peace and/or friendship between them (which in effect also acknowledged its practical independence), but not an authority or so.--207.112.4.206 (talk) 23:59, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
agree. Yaan (talk) 11:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

J.Bor had written about a commonwealth of sub-khanates of Mongol empire in his book, "The history of Eurasian diplomatic relations" Евразийн дипломат шашстир боть 2',: Great khan in Peking is a king of kings. grand lord Uzbeg (known as Ozbek), Khan in moghulistan, and Abusai (Abu said) respect him and sent tributes such as jewels, furs and pets to the great khan every year. (talk) 8:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vassals of Mongol Empire

Though the above article appears to have been created in good faith, it has no sources, and I'm not sure it's really an appropriate subject for its own article. For now, I am recommending that the information be merged here, unless someone has a better idea? --Elonka 02:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I would assume that much of the information at Vassals of Mongol Empire is already included here. I too would support a merge of whatever useful information may be salvaged from the former. Aramgar (talk) 02:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Agree with Aramgar and support merge. The other article looks like a partially listified excerpt from here. --Latebird (talk) 05:31, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I created the page. Although, you guys have written so much about Mongol empire, there is so much to be done. For example most of people still believe Mongols not invaded Lithuanina. And mongols in russia counted them as their special subjects (see a book by Gumilev) Enerelt —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.131.1.12 (talk) 01:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Was Korea a vessal of Mongol Empire or a part of Mongol Empire? During that time Korea (Goryeo) was ruled by its own kings, and maintained its sovereign power according to the treaty with Mongols (see Mongol invasions of Korea for details). Hence, I think it's more accurate to say Korea was a vessal of Mongol Empire, rather than a part of it.--207.112.122.3 (talk) 04:22, 8 March 2008 (UTC)


It is merged. everything. i think this is a good information and i didn't remove anything but source seems to need to verify these information. it is helpful information 71.237.70.49 (talk) 06:40, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Questioned information?

Someone previously added the sentence "(Note: This information is questioned, since Möngke died on July 21st 1259.)" to a paragraph discussing Möngke Khan and Kublai in the main article, but it seems that he did not understand the information correctly. What really happened is: (1). Möngke Khan assigned Kublai to a province in North China before his death; (2). Möngke Khan died in 1259; (3). Kublai won a chance to become Khan in 1260. The event (3) is the result from (1) and (2), i.e. the chance was provided unwittingly by Möngke Khan's action of (1) before his death. It clearly does not mean that Möngke Khan assigned Kublai to a province in North China in 1260 after his death in 1259, which would be ridicious. Obviously that sentence should be removed.--128.100.109.33 (talk) 20:45, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Why?

While reading the article I was thinking about why the Mongolians created/conquered such a huge empire. I know near to nothing about the period or the subject, but read the article out of curiosity. It made me wondering whether there are any theories of historians around. I know a little more of the Roman empire, which seems to have initially been a result of fear for neighbouring people or states, attacking and conquering them out of defence. Later, when the Roman state found itself winning a lot of battles and taking possession of a lot of territory, they occasionally justified their conquest with an ideology of civilization. So, what about the Mongolians? TJR Lanjouw (talk) 17:26, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

This is very interesting question. Mongols conquered many empires and won numerous battles. Great khan was seen as the God or messenger of the lord above heaven (tengri)by the mongols. That's why they were considered as lord of earth. You know that Guyuk khan said in his letter to Pope, "There is only God in heaven, and only one lord, Genghis khan on land.".
Otherwise, foreigners especially Jurched, Khwarizmians, turks and russians, hungarians all killed mongol messengers and was threatening safety of their empire. For example, jurcheds destroyed and enslaved mongols once a year in order to keep them weak. So, mongols had only one way. That was conquest!. Enerelt 8:59, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. So, the Mongols saw themselves as 'natural' conquerors, following Genghis Khan who was considered the lord of the earth. But this still leaves the question of how this ideology, as you might call it, came into being. This was the first time, and the last time they conquered 'the earth'. Did they see their Khan as 'lord of the earth' before Genghis? Did they have a conquerors mentality before Genghis?
In another article on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasion_of_Central_Asia, it is written in the introduction that the mongols initially unified all 'people in felt tents'. This all happened with little bloodshed. They could have stopped at this point.. but no, now they had become a power to be reckoned with, they got involved with other empires.
It seems to me that the Mongol empire was, in fact as I believe like rise of many empires, partly a result of a series of coincidental military and political successes that gave them a lot of power. As their successes accumulated, Genghis Khan slowly came to be seen as the legitimate ruler and lord of the earth. This may have been the incitement for more conquest.
Ah, well. This is just a theory. As I have said above: I have close to no knowledge (apart from the wikipedia articles) of the Mongol empire and this part of world history. What do the specialist historians have to say about this matter? Hm... maybe I should read some real books... TJR Lanjouw (talk) 18:08, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
It's not that hard to understand. Basically they invaded people and when the resisted, they were notoriously brutal, killing almost everyone. When people submitted they were expected to behave submissive and supportive to Mongol garisson. Follow the Yasa and respect the Mongol leaders. If not they were wiped out. Mongols needed land, goods, property and action. Simple as that. 71.237.70.49 (talk) 17:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
"For every complex problem, there is an answer that is clear, simple — and wrong." (H.L. Mencken) --Latebird (talk) 18:34, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Purportedly major events

The two subsections Major events in the Early Mongol Empire and Major events in the late Mongol Empire are continously getting filled up with stuff that isn't major at all. They should both be radically reduced to include only the really important and crucial events. Many of the battles are rather insignificant in context, and most administrative trivia (eg. the establishment of a school nobody's ever heard of) is of no importance at all. On top of that, according to WP:STYLE#Bulleted and numbered lists, the two lists should be turned into normal running text to begin with. Who's up to the task? --Latebird (talk) 04:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

Dear Latebird,

Thank you for your offer. We should make the section more useful. But the school founded by Kubla is true fact. Mongols were not simple barbarians ad you think. They had and still have their own unique culture. Thank u. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.131.1.11 (talk) 01:01, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Whether those schools existed or not (you'd need sources for that anyway), their creation clearly wasn't a "major event" in the big picture of things. --Latebird (talk) 04:56, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] vassals

no single item from the vassals list seems to be sourced. The Second Bulgarian Empire article sais the Bulgars (who have already been removed from the list) paid tribute, but nothing about military support or protection. I am somewhat inclined to remove all of them unless someone presents a reliable source. Any thoughts? Yaan (talk) 14:13, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Bulgaria was under protection of Nogai khan, the great grand son of Genghis khan. Although, he invaded the kingdom a dozen of times, mongols and bulgars together attacked Byzantine empire. So it should not be removed. Enerelt 9:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If you really want Sources, See: The books of Rene Grousset, Amite Press, J.Saunders. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Enerelt (talk • contribs) 10:32, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, if you have the sources, just add them. In fact, I have now also found sources for the Bulgars recognizing Nogai as their souzerain, but very scetchy ones - not good enough to add here. It would also be cool to give some additional info - when did they become vassals, etc. I am also still unsure about using some other word than "vassal" - "tributary" might be a better choice, unless we can show that the attack on Byzantium was more than just a case of common interests.
In any case: what is the source for the Byzantine empire being in any way subordinate to the Mongols? And when did Nogai become a Khan? Regards, Yaan (talk) 11:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Re. Byzance, I just checked Rene Grousset's Empire of the Steppes, New Brunswick 1970 (those pages mentioned in the index under "Byzantine Empire" and "Constantinople", anyway) and could not find any references to "tribute", only to "alliance". I will therefore put up a "dubious" sign for now. Yaan (talk) 18:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)