Talk:Monaco Grand Prix/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Current F1 Article Improvement candidate

OK.Can I start the ball rolling with suggestions for what needs improving here to put this up as the next selected article? I'll be boring and say that references need sorting out (sorry!).

What else needs doing?

How long do we want to take to get this article up to standard? I've trying to alter the timing of selected articles so that they go in at the beginning of the month (so they can be labelled as 'F1 selected article for Month '.) I've just put 2005 US Grand Prix up for the August article, so we can either leave it there for two weeks or about 6 weeks, so it would be the September or October article. What do you want to aim for? --4u1e 20:20, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

A small list of notable Grand Prix? like we did with Damon Hill? I suggest that the 1996 race is featured in the list --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 13:50, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree, and also suggest 1933, 1965, 1982 and 1984. Readro 21:10, 17 August 2006 (UTC)
Sounds like a good idea. Um - I can't think of any at the moment - anything from the 50s? Anyway the above suggestions would be an excellent start! --4u1e 07:32, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
I've started the section, and written a few lines for each suggestion so far. Readro 21:01, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Looks good. Should we include the first race as well? I might have something on that somewhere....
Some points of clarification:
  • Need to mention why Ickx was fined - I presume for favouring a fellow francophone?
  • How did Patrese win in 1984 when he'd run out of fuel (I can look this up next week if need be - it'll be in one of my books on Brabham). 4u1e 07:52, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
- Duh. Not awake yet - read 'Pironi' as 'Patrese'! Disregard previous point! 4u1e 07:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Ickx was fined for not consulting the stewards before stopping the race. I've added that to the article. Readro 14:04, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I suggest the 1961 Monaco Grand Prix (Stirling Moss defeats the Ferraris in a privately entered and outdated Lotus) and 1988 Monaco Grand Prix (Senna leads until a series of rapid laps by Prost puts him off his stride and he crashes out) as well? Or is that too many? 4u1e 02:17, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

That introduction to this article looks very long to me? Does anyone else agree? I think some of the introduction should be moved to the history section at least. --Jsydave 12:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

If others agree I can edit the lead down without losing much in the way of content. --4u1e 20:16, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
For what it's worth I don't think you need to lose anything. The first paragraph is great as it is. I feel the second paragraph should be under the "history" heading and the 3rd under "the circuit". The fourth appears to have a lot of overlap with the "notable drivers" section. Happy to edit myself but seems a lot to do without some consensus. --Jsydave 09:17, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Hold on, the Lead is supposed to do that. It's supposed to summarise the subject and the paragraphs mentioned are just copied and pasted from their repsected sections... --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 10:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Probably shouldn't be a straight copy though - well, bits of it will be, but the lead should cover all of the content of the article, but in much briefer detail. The reason why there's duplication on the notable drivers piece is of course that I copied it from the lead to form the nucleus of a section on notable drivers, as this content wasn't covered in the main body of the article at the time. I haven't finished expanding it yet, though!
Certainly no content should be lost overall (except possibly the contested 'King of Monaco' and 'Master of Monaco' stuff - see discussion further down the page!). My view is that the coverage of the lead is about right, but some of the more minor details can be deleted from here only (i.e. they should remain in the main body of the article) and that I'm sure the wording can be cut down to say the same thing in fewer words (again, no content loss). I'll have a go at it - revert it if you don't like it. --4u1e 12:09, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
OK - done it. I think that covers the entire content of the article, but in fewer words (see WP:LEAD) --4u1e 12:21, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The other reason it looks long is that we haven't expanded the rest of the article enough yet! --4u1e 12:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

I know the bottom of the article is already a bit list-y...but shouldn't we have winners by nationality as well? I mean, sure it's trivial...but then again you could say the same for the List of F1 Champions... --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 12:31, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Lap description

I think the lap description is nice from a fan's point of view, but not necessarily the best style of writing for an encyclopedia. I don't want to step on anyone's toes, so haven't changed it yet. But I think it needs to be altered. Readro 21:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Where does it come from? Quote or personal view? --4u1e 07:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't know, but looks like a personal opinion to me. Readro 10:26, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
Found it on the net by accident. It's an edited version of this, so most likely copyrighted to the Automobile Club de Monaco. I'll get working on a new one. Readro 15:36, 18 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've drafted a new one, but feel free to change wording, add/remove bits etc. I'm not 100% happy with it but it's not infringing copyright any more! Readro 16:33, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Does the lap description actually belong in this article? It's more a description of the circuit than the race, and so I believe it's more suited to the Circuit de Monaco article. Alexj2002 14:45, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Alex - you're probably right, should we have a
Main article: Circuit de Monaco
type link from this article though? --4u1e 16:06, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah I think we should have the short bit (the first two paragraphs under circuit heading) in this article and have a main article link like you described. The lap description can then be moved to the Circuit de Monaco article. Alexj2002 16:18, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Right - I've copied all of the text on the circuit to the Circuit de Monaco article. I've left the first para as proposed as a summary. Your work has not been lost Readro! Just to get me clear on the distinction here:
  • Anything directly describing the circuit itself should primarily appear in Circuit de Monaco
  • Anything directly describing the race known as the Monaco Grand Prix (whichever category it was being run to) should primarily appear in this article.
This is the only circuit other than Monza that has been used so consistently throughout the history of the race, so the lines can get blurred. To pre-empt a possible comment, I do not think the circuit and race articles should be merged as the circuit does hold other races (the F3000 and F3 ones) and such a move would take it out of step with all the other race and circuit articles. 4u1e 01:38, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:Monaco grand prix race over.jpg

The year of the race featured in this picture is unknown. However there are clearly Michelin trucks which would mean it's 2001 or later. One of the cars is a Toyota so it must be 2002 season or later. Zepter's sponsorship of the Monaco GP ran from 2000-2004 which puts the image either 2002,2003 or 2004. This would correspond with the EXIF data which states the image was taken 1 June 2003, which is the correct date of the 2003 race. I have therefore changed the information page to reflect this. Alexj2002 14:19, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

NIce detective work! 4u1e 07:53, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Drivers Swimming

Quick Q: When and who was it that last took a swim in the drink? Article states that it was in the 60s, but is not specific. (I believe that it is notable enough for full inclusion, but I know not the answer.)-slowpokeiv 16:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

I've altered the article to mention only Alberto Ascari at the top, because Paul Hawkins' swim is mentioned later on in the notable grands prix section. Readro 21:00, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Notable drivers

Senna and G. Hill, most obviously. Their achievements are mentioned in the lead (correctly, I think) but don't appear further down the article. We could cover this in a section on 'notable drivers'. Who else, if any, would be in there? 4u1e 08:00, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Off the top of my head, possibly Prost, Schumacher and Mansell. Mansell was always very quick, but just never won. Readro 19:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Prost should be there as well - Being the only Frenchman to win their more then twice is notable, isn't it? --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 13:14, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
You're right - let's add Prost too. --4u1e 18:04, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

1996 Race

"Only three cars finished the race."

This seems a bit misleading. Three cars finished on the lead lap, four cars were classified as having finished. Frentzen in fourth was in the pits when the flag fell, so was lapped before the end of the race and therefore classified. Source:http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/rr587.html How could this be reworded to better say this? Shall I change it to only four cars finished? Alexj2002 14:33, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Done --4u1e 16:08, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's listed as a record for fewest cars finished: 3, so I think it should be listed as three. If anything, that's misleading.

Where is it listed as a record (what's your source?) Alexj2002 09:01, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Brabham pushing a car to the finish?

Didn't Jack Brabham push his car to the finish here one year? (1950s?) I know he did at the US GP in 1959, but thought he'd earlier done it at Monaco. I'll check it out next week. --4u1e 16:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Well remembered! My book says that during the 1957 race, his fuel pump failed five laps from the end, and he pushed the car half a mile to eventually finish sixth. Readro 19:15, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Customs

Idea for another section - Monaco is unusual in several ways:

  • First practice on Thursday, not Friday (I guess to reduce disruption, although I can't imagine that works very well!)
  • Race starts always used to be at 3pm local time, not the 2pm Bernie got all the other races standardised to in the early 1980s. (This seems to have stopped now, but was the case up to the late 1990s I think)
  • No podium - trophies are awarded on what I have always assumed are the steps of a hotel by the circuit. (This is really a circuit issue, but it does go with the other two).

Any others, and would this make another section? 4u1e 02:21, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Can we work in something to cover the 'glamour' angle - is the the race at which you're most likely to see celebrities? There're certainly more yachts at this race than any other! :)
I've been looking at the Indianapolis 500 and 24 hours of Le Mans articles for more ideas, and I think something on 'Traditions' would fit, based around the stuff I've mentioned above. Feel free to have a go, or I'll try and convert it into better prose later today. Where would it fit best? --4u1e 07:06, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Nicknames

I can't find one instance of Graham Hill being called King of Monaco or Ayrton Senna being called Master of Monaco. I've found several sources that say Hill was called Mr. Monaco but no hint of Senna having a nickname. Readro 10:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I should change it to match your references - if we find references for the others later we can change it back. --4u1e 12:37, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, I think I managed to get the Senna nickname referenced :). --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 14:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Skully - I hate to mention it, but I think the reference you have used has been copied from an old version of the wikipedia Ayrton Senna article. Try comparing the wording with versions of the Senna article from the back end of last year. Very similar wording can be found on Reference.com, which normally draws its material from Wikipedia as well. As no firm reference for 'Master of Monaco' is given in the Wikipedia article, the whole thing becomes a circular reference and unfortunately proves nothing. Bummer. :-( Googling around, I can find the title applied to Senna, Hill and Schumacher - often in association with various prints ([1], [2], [3]). Although all three drivers have been casually referred to as 'master of monaco', I've found nothing online to suggest that this was ever a 'title', which is what the article currently implies. I think it needs to go until we can find a proper reference saying something like "Ayrton Senna was often titled 'Master of Monaco'" or words to that effect. Preferably in a hard copy publication. --4u1e 20:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry, it looks like we'll have to wait until I can rent out the book I used to reference some things in the Hill article, which will be in about September, can you guys wait till then?

I think we have to go with what Readro has and just refer to Graham Hill as 'Mr monaco' and remove the other titles. --4u1e 20:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've found a source for Graham Hill being King of Monaco! But I've found that the nicknames are referred to twice within the article, maybe we should merge the last paragraph of the lead-in with the Notable drivers section? Readro 13:53, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Also found a vague reference to Senna as Master of Monaco, in Chris Hilton's biography. Will that do? Readro 14:54, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Things appearing twice isn't a problem - if the first time is in the lead, and the bit in the main body of the article is more detailed than what is in the lead. I'm a bit suspicious of the 'vague reference' though - there are lots of these on the web, but if they're as vague as the ones I linked above I'd be inclined not to. --4u1e 18:24, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, it's quite vague, so maybe we should take it out. Readro 21:48, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
The titles are quite subjective anyway really. It's easier to back up Senna was the most successful driver because he won more races than anyone else than Senna was known as the "Master of Monaco" (by who?). I'd say take it out. Alexj2002 22:45, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Done. --4u1e 07:07, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Technical Analysis

Skully - excellent idea for a section: I should mention steering lock as well, at times in the past (don't know if currently or not) teams have found it necessary to fit a new steering rack and possibly even redesign the whole front suspension in order to get round the Loews/Station/Gasworks etc hairpin.

However, like the lap description I think this should be moved to the Circuit de Monaco as it's about technical changes for the circuit not the Grand Prix itself. Looks like we might be getting two articles for the price of one! --4u1e 11:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe ;-)...oh and thanks for the compliment :-) I thought I might as well put my "National Award in Engineering" and *some* of my technical know-how to some use... --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 13:02, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
It's a nice idea, but I'd have to afree with 4u1e here - it belongs in the circuit article. Readro 15:15, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'll move it over to the other article then. Cheers. --4u1e 17:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Triple Crown?

Um, I have never heard of the "triple crown of motorsport", furthermore, has anyone ever won this so called "triple crown"? If so, someone please educate me. Thanks... -slowpokeiv 16:16, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I've heard of it, but I couldn't provide you with any references. However, take a look at Triple Crown - it's there as well!--Diniz 16:25, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'd prefer hard copy references, but for now see: www.formula1.com, www.forix.com and www.forix.com. all reputable sites ;). I'll ref the article from these, but if anyone's got hard copy refs that would be better. --4u1e 17:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I stand corrected, thank you sincerely for the education. :) (And yes, I was too tired to see the mention of Mr Hill in the article, I apologize for that...) -slowpokeiv 19:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
No worries. It was a little harder than I expected to find those references - the subject is raised less often than it was 15 or 20 years ago. In recent years drivers have become far more zoned into their respective categories - it's no longer possible to get a one-off ride in an F1 Grand Prix and even at Indy the number of one-off appearances (certainly competitive ones) seems less than it was. F1 drivers are no longer permitted by their teams to race in other events, so it's become very much harder for anyone to even think of achieving this - Montoya could do it, although I imagine there's a clash between the NASCAR schedule, which is insanely crowded, and Le Mans. --4u1e 07:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Won by one G. Hill esq. as stated in the article! It's not an official title, any more than golf or tennis' grand slam (all four majors) is, but it is equally 'real'. If I've given the impression that it is a competition of some kind, perhaps I should revise the wording. --4u1e 17:39, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Graph

I made this graph for an F1 forum to illustrate the increasing speed of F1 cars over time. Could it be suitable for usage in this article?

--Diniz 16:32, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it would need your sources of FL and Pole times. Alexj2002 19:54, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

I have a problem with this in that the layout of the circuit has changed to slow the cars down, so it is not a great way to display the information. Readro 20:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Not many changes though - could you tag off where a major change has occured? I think it would need some more explanation of what it was showing for a non-expert audience. --4u1e 21:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
It might look nicer in gnuplot too. Readro 21:35, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I think that's OK now - this is probably the only race where you can do this relatively sensibly. In a way I feel it could look more polished, but I don't have the knowledge to tell you how! --4u1e 07:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)


Sorry for not mentioning this update yesterday; I uploaded it, but the file didn't change straight away! I think it could look more polished too, but MS Excel is the only suitable program I have. I'll try out a few ideas. My sources are: 1950-2001 - 2001 Formula One Annual, 2002-2005 - relevent edition of AUTOCOURSE, 2006 - formula1.com --Diniz 12:14, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've added vertical line and the circuit map from the article. The changes should be visible soon...--Diniz 12:22, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Back seat editor here - Can you make the wording bigger. There's room to do it and as a picture at this size it would need to be bigger to be readable. --4u1e 17:31, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Done!--Diniz 20:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Diniz, do you have the original Excel data (.xls file)? If so could you upload it to yousendit.com (enter your own email address and it'll send you the link) and post the link it gives here. There are a couple of things I think I can do to make it look nicer and the version above has been saved in JPG when PNG should have been used. Thanks, Alexj2002 15:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
OK, just click here.--Diniz 17:38, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I've got a WIP version of this on my sandbox. It's missing the circuit changes boxes and the labels on the axis are temporary but wouldn't mind peoples opinion. Has too much clarity been lost? Would it be suitable for inclusion in the article or would it be better to have a link to it in a see also section? Alexj2002 18:53, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
It looks nice, but the 3D perspective makes it too hard to read, in my opinion. Let's wait for a 'neutral' view, though.--Diniz 20:15, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I've been working on one in gnuplot, this any good? It's an SVG too. Click here. Readro 22:48, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Comparison of all three here. Readro's GNUplot one IMO is the best, as it looks good and is relatively clear even when size is reduced. A few changes need to be made before it can be used - it's continuous at the moment with no breaks for wet races. I should be able to fix this in a couple of days if necessary. Alexj2002 00:07, 27 August 2006 (UTC)
I prefer the gnuplot version as well.--Diniz 13:53, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

"A hotel by the circuit"

It's actually the Royal Box! Readro 20:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Ooops - I knew I was taking a flyer there. I'll amend. But it looks like it backs onto a building - so what is the building? Surely there's not a permanent royal box built by the side of the road? --4u1e 21:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure but it looks like a permanent royal box to me, here's a link to a picture - [4]. You can see it's not attached to a hotel. Readro 21:31, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough - although I recognise it in your picture, it doesn't half look different when you see it on the telly with crowds all around! --4u1e 21:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't suppose that's a picture we can use is it? --4u1e 21:42, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Don't know. It's copyrighted, but I guess we could email the guy and ask to use it, or use it under fair use. Readro 21:43, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I've had some luck with that approach elsewhere (see Brabham and Fittipaldi Automotive) - if possible best to ask them to release it under the GFDL. Just giving permission to use it on Wikipedia is not enough. The whole question of copyright is a bit complicated though! Where did you find it? --4u1e 07:39, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
P.S. There's a whole bunch of photos at Flickr - if you do an advanced search you can selected ones released under Creative Commons licensing for 'modification and further use', which I think is OK for here.
Yeah - they should be okay - because it has a Creative Commons licencing icon at the bottom of the page when you view the image fully. --Skully Collins Review Me! Please? 13:40, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
It's OK, I found an alternative image which is released under the Creative Commons license. Arguably it's a better image anyway. Readro 14:09, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry guys, i've had to remove the image. It's licenced under CC-BY-NC, the NC being non-commercial making it not freely licenced enough for Wikipedia. If you wanted to use it, you'd have to claim fair use as you would with a copyrighted image. Two other points when using Flickr photos, upload the highest resolution version of the image to Wikipedia (click all sizes, and choose original) and secondly always provide the full link to the image (in this case [5]). Alexj2002 13:57, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Oops, my mistake. Sorry. Readro 17:26, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Sorry - I should have explained that more carefully! --4u1e 17:26, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

GA nomination

Not to say that this article is done yet, but I think it's close enough that I've nom'd it for Good Article status. Things I think it could still do with:

  • Perhaps some more on the relationship between the race and Monaco's royal family (The Grimaldis)
  • Something on the number of F1 drivers who live in Monaco and for whom this is their home race. I think Ayrton Senna once crashed out, stalked back to his apartment within a few minutes and wasn't seen for several days.
-New 'Glamour' section covers these two to a certain extent. --4u1e 20:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comparison with other similar races - Long Beach and the Macau and Pau F3 races comes to mind.
  • Thorough start to finish copyedit to pick up the usual spelling and grammar as well as multiple (or insufficient) incidents of wikilinks.
  • Pick up any missing refs.

What do you guys think? --4u1e 07:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

We'll have probably finished by the time it's reviewed so I'd wouldn't dispute nominating it already. I'd agree with the summary above as well. Only thing I'd add is tidying up some of the pictures used but that's best done when the article is mostly done with. Alexj2002 13:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Things like "Some general guidelines which should be followed in the absence of a compelling reason not to: Start the article with a right-aligned image." from Manual of Style are what I meant by the above, we start with a left-aligned image. Alexj2002 14:03, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Image:DamonHill Monaco1994.jpg

Same problems as with the Royal Box image discussed above. This uses an even more inflexible licence as it's noncommerical and with no-derivatives. I've removed it from the article and flagged it as a speedydelete on commons. Alexj2002 14:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Selected Article

Guys - I've put this up on the portal - probably slightly premature as not quite al tidied up, but I'm going to be on wikibreak for a while and it looks like activity has petered out here. I think it is a great improvement on its previous state and hope this meets the expectations of those who nominated it. Cheers 4u1e

I agree. I think it should pass GA. Alexj2002 22:34, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

GA comments

Hi, it's a nice article and I enjoy reading it. However, there are some small things to fix first before it goes to GA:

  • In the lead section, I found the following statements, which require a source, as it is a comparison between Ayrton Senna & Graham Hill.

Brazil's Ayrton Senna has won the most Grands Prix here, taking six victories. Five of them were consecutive from 1989 to 1993. However it is Graham Hill, a 5-time winner of the race, who is known as the "King of Monaco".

I don't understand what you mean. The statement that Graham Hill is known as the "King of Monaco" has already been referenced under the "Notable Drivers" section. --Skully Collins 12:59, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes, you know where, but for a reader? People read lead section first, not directly to the specific section. Thus they might raise a question like me: "well, if Senna won 6 times, why Hill with 5 times winning is called the king of monaco?". It's no harm — even suggested — to have one source cited multiple times in the article. All right, as you've told me where is the reference, I'll fix the lead section, and hence the GA status. Congrats for such a nice, compact and have reliable source of this article. — Indon (reply) — 14:04, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Is there a complete circuit map? It would be nice, if it is available.

For other criteria, this article qualifies for GA. — Indon (reply) — 16:11, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Circuit map inserted into article. cheers --Skully Collins 12:55, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't think there should be a circuit map. After all, this page is about the Grand Prix, not the circuit. Readro 14:23, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
A non-specialist reader like me will ask: "isn't grand prix is a racing car in a circuit?". — Indon (reply) — 14:35, 19 September 2006 (UTC)