Talk:Moi dix Mois

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User 24.185.161.165, I removed your link. Please see Wikipedia's policy on linking to copyrighted works. Specifically: "Linking to copyrighted works is usually not a problem, as long as you have made a reasonable effort to determine that the page in question is not violating someone else's copyright. If it is, please do not link to the page."

The page you linked is full of material violating the artists' copyright. flowersofnight 13:41, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Genre

Leysau seems to be doing the idiot act again, acting as if she owns every article she edits and anyone else who edits those articles must be "vandals", anybody who has witnessed her trolling and POV pushing on the Children of Bodom, Gothic Metal and other related articles will be aware that she has been caught out and confronted with such actions before.

Moi Dix Mois do NOT play "Gothic Metal", they dress in a Gothic Lolita fashion style but do not play any kind of "Gothic" music, stop trying to connect random bands to the genre you are a fan of, totally unfoundedly.

The style they play is Heavy Metal mixed with Neo-Classical and Visual Kei. You do NOT own this article, it is a public article where people work together and edit, do you understand the concept of that? I doubt it. - Deathrocker 16:31, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This revert war over exactly what kind of metal Moi dix Mois plays is silly. I've created a compromise version that just attributes his style to "metal". Really, the metal bands Mana's expressed interest in are Slayer and Motley Crue. Why not just mention these influences in the article? Also: Moi dix Mois don't dress as gothic lolitas. Gothic lolitas are female, and none of the members incorporate female dress in their stage act. Mana's mostly phased out the cross-dressing at this point in his career.

Also, why did you revert my version? I'd like to get something up that we can agree on for now, till we work out the differences. flowersofnight (talk) 16:36, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

"Heavy Metal" as it is, is used as a general term that covers all of the metal subgenres, they simply do not play "Gothic Metal". The user who vandalises this article is a fan of that genre and is the only reason for its mention in the article, she has frequent "freak outs" on Wikipedia and goes on edit warring crusades with numerous editors, unfortunetly this is nothing new. - Deathrocker 16:46, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Please not that an admin has before banned DeathRocker for inciting revert wars on the Gothic music and Nu Metal articles against me, for claiming both ownership of articles and open violation of the 3RR.

On a second note, i suggest reading the Gothic metal and Neo-classical metal articles. Heavy Metal mixed with Classical is, Neo-classical metal. The band also does not soley play Gothic metal, but have indirectly blended the genre into their music. Reading up on what a musical genre is should help the understanding of how they are what they are named as.

The article also stated that the band plays a combination of Neo-classical metal and gothic metal BEFORE Deathrocker changed it, which has been enforced by many anons and the WP:HMM project, of whom im one of the most active members.

An admin is also now involved that has banned Deathrocker before. Ley Shade 16:53, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Let's just say for now that M10M plays visual kei/heavy metal. User:Leyasu is on a one-revert-per-day restriction from Arbcom [1] and you're both over the WP:3RR limit anyway, so I'm going to go ahead and reinstate my attempt at a compromise version. As for Shadow X, the official lyrics booklets list his position in the band as "Death Voice", so I'm going to list him as that, without linking to the metal term. I think that's reasonable. I'm also going to remove the part about Gothic Lolita as I mentioned above. Mana's image in Moi dix Mois is outright masculine at present. flowersofnight (talk) 16:55, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


The reason it said "Gothic Metal" before I edited it, is because YOU edited it in before, once you've had an edit on an article you think it becomes yours. Also the same admin has banned YOU TOO before.

And to flowersofnight if Mana now dresses more masculine there should be some kind of picture showing this aswel as mentioning the bands fashion before he recently changed it. - Deathrocker 16:59, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Death voice means Death vocals, thus changing that i will change back. If yew change the genre, ill change it back because its called POV Pushing, and what im endorsing was the one before Deathrocker POV pushed anything onto the article. For evidence i typed up to the admin involved in Deathrockers persistant trouble causing, look here. Im sorry, and i dont want to war with yew flowers because your trying to help, but in the course of Wikipedia Prose and wikipedia being about factual accuracy and consensus, all balls are in my court. Previous consensus lists them as what they where before Deathrocker pushed their POV onto the article, thus thats ill uphold until Deathrocker respects both the policys WP:NPOV and WP:CITE.

Also despite Deathrockers claim, i actually changed the article to point out the band isnt a purely Gothic Metal band, and made minor gramma edits to additions by anons when they occured. The Gothic Metal addition was done before i even joined Wikipedia!! Ley Shade 17:05, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Deathrocker: Well, he never was masculine in M10M to begin with, so it's not really something new. While the makeup-wearing might be somewhat effeminate by Western standards, he was clearly intending to present himself as masculine throughout M10M's history. I think the picture we have will do.
And would the two of you please stop reverting in violation of WP:3RR? I'm trying once more with a compromise version. Re: Shadow X, I think it's fair to call him what the band itself calls him. I put it in quotes to make that clear. flowersofnight (talk) 17:10, 14 March 2006 (UTC)


I'll agree to settle for your compromise edition for now flowersofnight. - Deathrocker 17:15, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

This isnt about fairness and i will openly violate 3RR to stop vandalism. Albight your not vandalising the page Flowers, Deathrocker has.

In light of the band calling themselfs anything, Wikipedia doesnt list bands based on their own views. Death Voice means Death Vocals, so we direct to Death Grunt and list voice as vocals, because thats proper prose.

If people want to discuss genre, then start a bullet issue below where each person lists their beliefs on why they are a given genre, and why they arent another. Also please remember to cite sources per WP:CITE. I can do this at will, i just dont until someone does it first.

As for the compromise edition, i stand for consensus and fact overall, thus if the article lists what the article said before it was changed, im more than happy to sit here and discuess the genres and views with both of yew. Ley Shade 17:18, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Not to add more fuel to the fire, but while searching for M10M US tour cancellation information, I stumbled upon this, an article about gothic metal that explains M10M is not gothic metal. Defining Gothic Metal: The Truth And Lies Of The Scene Calicore 07:52, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

While I don't think Moi dix Mois are Gothic Metal, the author of the link you provided seems to be quite misinformed.

For example, it says "this specific metal genre MUST have references and influences from the gothic rock/dark wave scene from the 80s".. and then mentions how Gothic Metal must be influenced by the likes of Virgin Prunes, Bauhaus, the Mission, etc.

This isn't true, the guy who wrote it was working with the common-misconception that "Gothic Metal" is a form of "Goth Rock"... its explained in the Gothic Metal article on here how the two aren't related. - Deathrocker 08:17, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Deathrocker is right. Gothic Metal has no connection to Goth Rock. The author of that article seems really to just be promoting their favourite bands. He also goes on about how a bunch of bands who have openly stated they dont like Goth Rock take influence from it. The author of that needs to know what he is on about, before typing such misinforming articles. User:LeyasuLey Shade 11:27, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Why Moi dix Mois is not Gothic Metal? I think they are Gothic Metal. Someone please explain simply. 7:48, 19 October 2006

[edit] The theory of consensus

Leyasu seems to be confused on this concept. I am agreeing to the version edited last by flowers. The only editor backing Leyasu's POV filled version is Leyasu herself, If I am agreeing with flowers version for now, so that is 2 vs. 1, how am I editing against concensus? Oh, I'm not, kthnxbye. - Deathrocker 17:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Despite the snide remarks and personal attacks of Deathrocker, Deathrocker went again consensus by POV Pushing a change to the article and initating a revert war. Deathrocker went on to start reverting Flowers, and only has agreed to Flowers version when Flowers version represents Deathrockers POV. Regardless, the original consensus still stands, regardless of what way Deathrocker trys to POV push. Ley Shade 18:02, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I agreed with flowers concensus after discussing points on this very talk page, it became clear that, that version was a fair neutral version, there was no previous concensus, previously in your mind you "owned" the article and pushed your POV and favouritism of a genre you're a fan of. Until a few days ago when I began editing it, liberating it from your clutches, to be a free public article that anybody can edit... you seem to be against that idea. - Deathrocker 18:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Please provide a diff of me claiming ownership of the article. The also irony og it is, when yew check my edit history, ive only ever done spellchecking and gramma edits to the article. Irony when i apparantly 'own the article'. Ley Shade 18:16, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Calling sock

Please try to discuss your changes here, instead of repeatedly reverting to versions your user name (User:Leyasu) was banned for 42 hours for pushing.

What are your reasons behind removing reliable info which is sourced, and article reworks which were agreed on via concensus?

[edit] Concerning Citations

Deathrocker: The policy WP:CITE states that as long as their is a source, the information on it goes into the article. It doesnt matter if you disagree with the sources information, as often in the objectivity of WP:NPOV, you have to work for the enemy, which means finding sources that state things you disagree with.

If you wish to debate the bands genre with me, and claim they are not Gothic Metal, please state 'how' they are not Gothic Metal. Also state 'how' they are not Neo-Classical Metal.

Thank you. Ley Shade 21:48, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The source you are claiming says Visual Gothic Metal.. as you can see, that does not exist. There is no comma, it could mean "Visual Gothic" because the bands use a Gothic image. and Metal because they play a form of metal... or it could mean they have Visuals and they play Gothic Metal, there is no way of telling either way from that source. - Deathrocker 21:52, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

That is called interpretation, and it says 'Gothic Metal', which is enough. We are both agreed that they are Visual Kei, and i can find a number of sources saying that. I alos have more sources for them being Gothic Metal.

Such as, these, [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10].

Well there is less than half of my sources. Now ive provided them, it stays, wether yew like, or dislike, it. Ley Shade 22:02, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

2. The debated source we were discussing. 3. A message board post. 4. Answers.com just shows an earlier version of this very article. 5. Says "somewhere between Goth, Metal, Neoclassic and Industrial.".. there is a comma after Goth... it doesn't say "Gothic Metal". 6. A compiled list by a random user on Amazon.com I could join up to Amazon right now and start a list of Hip Hop acts and include Moi Dix Mois, it holds no water. 7. The opening sentence says "I'm not the most qualified person to be reviewing a J-Rock albums"... but they go on to review it anyway, and say the music has a Gothic sound, it does not mention your beloved "Gothic Metal" until later down the article, when another random review says their sound is Gothic Metal, and Gothic/Deathrock = Two different things and an Oxymoron. 8. A message board post. 9. One reference that calls them Doom. 10. A database that says "Members of Moi dix Mois No Information. The base is updated daily.".. they don't even have any information on the band, not very acurate is it?

Please find reliable sources, not blog posts and message board posts.

To clear up your confusion. Slashes in front of Metal are often used to mean a mixture of both, ie: Doom/Death, and Symphonic/Power and indeed, Gothic/Doom. I dont use slashes myself, but i have changed articles such as Rhapsody that have had them. Someones use of punctuation isnt a dismissal. And three of them explicitly say 'Gothic Metal'. WP:CITE doesnt make pickyness of 'who' says what, it also states that O.R. is allowed if yew make a website or publish what yew think in other media. Thus any source counts.

Now if yew disbelieve them to be Gothic Metal, give a reason as to 'how' they are not Gothic Metal. 'Because i said so' arguments dont wash against Wikipedia policys. Ley Shade 22:24, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

We have established 8 of these sources DO NOT, say this band is Gothic Metal, so why do you continue to bullshit about that in the edit summary, what is wrong with you?? - Deathrocker 23:22, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

No, we have established they do, and you want to pretend they dont because it doesnt suit yew. Also, again, i will ask one last time, how are they 'not' gothic metal? Ley Shade 23:27, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gothic metal

OK, why don't we back up a few steps.

  • First off, I don't think the 10 links posted above are particularly relevant or authoritative. Looks to me like just a collection of fan-made sources from English-speaking countries (i.e. NOT Japan).
  • Second: referring to M10M as "gothic" doesn't really make sense in context. Prominent Japanese musicians such as Haruhiko Ash have stated that the gothic music scene in Japan is essentially nonexistent. M10M is not considered "gothic" anything by anyone actually involved in the Japanese music scene. As far as promotion goes, Moi dix Mois is still exclusively promoted in visual kei publications in Japan - though it is true that gothic publications such as Orkus have started to cover M10M overseas.
  • Third: Mana himself does not consider the band to be gothic metal; he also has no links to the gothic scene either in Japan or overseas. In recent interviews he has specifically stated that he considers the band to be simply "rock"; in overseas interviews he will also accept the "visual kei" label.

It seems to me that the "gothic" label is one applied to Moi dix Mois exclusively by Western fans, and doesn't really reflect the nature or intentions of the band. And if people would stop reverting every 5 minutes, maybe we could actually add this to the article! flowersofnight (talk) 03:01, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Some comments on genre, founding date and Mana's image

Hi,

I only have 3 comments to make but rather than trying to interpret things the way I would like to see them they are based on the words of Mana himself:

  • Moi dix Mois do not play Heavy Metal or Visual Kei but a mixture of Rock and classical music ("sympho rock" - see the official Moi dix Mois website http://midi-nette.com/mdm/profile-english.htm, JaME July 2004 http://www.jmusiceuropa.com/en/files/interview.php?id=30 and Neo Wing March 2006 http://www.neowing.co.jp/music/essentials/moi_dix_mois/index.html#2). I admit that this is a very general description (and therefore probably not very helpful to Wikipedia readers who don't already know the band) but since Mana says this whenever he is asked the question and since anything else seems to incite heated debates why not stick to Mana's own words? He never said that Moi dix Mois play Heavy Metal - any kind of Heavy Metal. He has however said (in an interview with Fools Mate, Nr. 285, July 2005) that he thinks Moi dix Mois' music is somewhere between Positive Punk (i.e. proto-Goth) and Metal but leaning more towards Metal, while the band's looks lean more towards Positive Punk, and that he thinks that therefore Moi dix Mois appeal to both the Metal and Goth scenes, which he is happy about - so perhaps Goth Metal or Gothic Metal is not such an inappropriate descripton after all. Also note that the European version of Nocturnal Opera was published on a German Goth label (Trisol) and that both Trisol and their new label Gan-Shin are targeting the European Goth and Metal scenes as audiences. As for Visual Kei, please bear in mind that this is not a musical style but an overall artistic concept that can involve any type of music, including a blend of different types of music. A band can therefore not play Visual Kei music, only follow the artistic concept of Visual Kei by complementing their music with an appropriate visual image. However, Mana has said more than once that Moi dix Mois are not Visual Kei (again, see JaME July 2004 http://www.jmusiceuropa.com/en/files/interview.php?id=30 and Neo Wing March 2006 http://www.neowing.co.jp/music/essentials/moi_dix_mois/index.html#2). Lastly, Haruhiko Ash's comments on the Japanese Goth scene at least partly reflect his own wishful thinking or his well-documented resentment of the Visual Kei scene, or both. The Japanese Goth scene is small but there are increasingly cross-overs between the Goth and the Gothic Lolita scene, with Gothic Lolitas frequenting Goth clubs and prominent DJs like Sisen/Violet DJing at both Goth events like Tokyo Dark Castle and Gothic Lolita events like Alamode. I have personally met Gothic Lolitas in Japan who were active in both the Visual Kei and Goth scenes and saw no contradiction in that, quite the opposite. Incidentally, they were all fans of Moi dix Mois and other Mana-related bands like Malice Mizer and Schwarz Stein.
  • Moi dix Mois were not founded on 19 October 2002 but on 19 March 2002 (Mana's birthday - see the Aesthetics blog on Mana's own website http://www.mana-sama.com or the official Moi dix Mois website http://midi-nette.com/mdm/profile-english.htm), and therefore not 10 months after Malice Mizer went into hiatus. The 10 in the band name refers to birth and beginning, based on the 10 month development period of the human embryo in the mother's womb, which in Japan is calculated in lunar months, therefore totaling 10 instead of 9 months (again, see Moi dix Mois' official website http://midi-nette.com/mdm/profile-english.htm as well as Orkus magazine February 2005).
  • As for whether Mana's image is masculine or feminine, he has said that he wants to express female beauty through his male being and that he wants to tear down the barriers between male and female (Astan magazine May 2005 and October 2005), so I guess you could say that he aims to be neither, or both.

Personally I think part of the beauty of Moi dix Mois is that they cannot be easily categorised because they blend several different musical and visual elements and I think it is kind of sad that this has become a cause for disputes.

Your view is respected, but, Wikipedia is a Enclyclopedia. Many bands express that they want to be thought of as one type of music, even when they have no connection to it. If your read the articles on Gothic Metal, and Neo-classical metal, Moi Dix Mois have elements from both. They do not completely have all the elements from either, but they contain an overwhelming amount of elements from both musical styles.
Wether the band, or Mana, has written the music to be this way on purpose, is neither here nor there. They, indirectly or directly, play music that is a cross between Neo-classical metal and Gothic metal.
Moi Dix Mois also fit the style of Visual Kei, as you have noted.
I suggest you clean up the parts of the article with things that are slightly dubious, such as the reasoning of the name, or Mana's image, providing an inline citatioc such as this one, [11]. When your done, ill copyedit it for prose and flow. Ley Shade 00:40, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Precision about "moi dix mois" traduction

Hello, You said that "moi dix mois" in french means "me ten monthes" and it's perfectly exact (i'm a french speaker) but i read that lthe the third word is "mois" because mana wanted to say "me" in plural to exprime multiple aspect of himself. It's just a supposition (because "moi" in french don't have a plural) but it's possible when we saw the many errors in french of mana song's titles... Bye

[edit] DISGUSTING BEHAVIOUR

I can't beleive the idiotic antics of Deathrocker and Leyasu. Do they realise how petty they are? sure whether or not they should be called Gothic Metal is dubious but it cant be denied they have connections and similarities to the genre. No band SHOULD fight exactly neatly into one genre unless they created it themselfs - the very fact that they can appeal to different groups only enhances the groups prowess. i dont listen to them myselves but i have heard mana's work in malice mizer (taking into account how mana's style had shifted during the Klaha Era especially) and i can with an almost complete certainty that any fan of gothic Metal would have no problem with listening to them without freaking out about how they are not Gothic metal, and that Wikipedia was lying terribly to them. personally i would not call them Gothic Metal myself but i have absolutely no problem with at least mentioning the links to the genre, in fact i would insist on it for a more indepth article User:coda_littleking

Malice Mizer doesnt have links to Gothic Metal. Moi Dix Mois has several core Gothic Metal elements, but do not however, have any interaction with the genre directly. And no, not every member of the Gothic Metal scene will adore Moi Dix Mois, as most do not have any admiration for Moi Dix Mois. Ley Shade 20:22, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You obviously misunderstood me, i did not say that any fan of Gothic Metal would adore them merely that they would most likely acknowledge that they could be considered to Gothic Metal. They do have a link with gothic metal - their european record label (and yes i know that doesnt make them Gothic metal), but anyway that inst even what i meant , what i meant was any article would have to address the issue of gothic metal in relation to the band. (oh and by way you do not have to be part of a genre's 'scene' to be considered connected to it) user:coda_littleking
Then yes, i did misunderstand yew. Their connection to the Gothic Metal scene however is musical only, and that is inadvertant. However, when i have more time i would like to go over how to best include the genre debate into the article. Ley Shade 19:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I've kept "Gothic metal" in the info box, but put "(debated)" after it, as this page clearly shows, it is debated whether they are or not. - Deathrocker 23:33, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] U.S. tour

I heard that MdM is going to have a US tour. Is this true? I thought that Wikipedia would have the information but for some reason the page seems to be protected... Calicore 04:01, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

  • It's 99.999% likely to be false. The (one-man) company claiming to be arranging the tour has disappeared all mention of it from the Internet, and it was a very sketchy-looking operation to begin with. flowersofnight (talk) 04:06, 18 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Mana is coming!!!! (excuse the multiple exclaimation marks, I'm just super excited.) The official M10M site even has the tour dates posted! Hoorray for that 0.001%!!!![12]. Calicore 19:18, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh how cruel you are, fate. NoFuture, may Mana bring you many misfortunes. Calicore 21:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

  • http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/6942/manaspringrl7.jpg As of November 2006, Mana has confirmed that the US tour is going to take place sometime in spring of 2007. I think it needs to be mentioned in the article. As of now, the article makes it look like no one has any idea what's going on. ThePlushMessiah 18:05, 05 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Image

The image has been removed from the article (quite unnecessarily, I might add, seeing as how it met fair use guidelines) and I'm wondering about what people would think to be a suitable replacement. There's an image that I think is a poster, but might just be an image that accompanies the album Beyond the Gate that includes Mana, Seth, and K all in the new Moi dix Mois style; I think that would do well. --Berserk798 22:16, 24 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] "Solo-project"

I understand the concept of Mana being the main creative force behind the band, the direction, etc, but a solo project? I can't be the only person who finds this odd and almost grossly inaccurate... Ric 17:23, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

  • In official promotional materials (posters, etc) Moi dix Mois is termed as a "Mana Project". And of course, he's the only permanent member of the group. I think "solo project" isn't an unfair assessment. flowersofnight (talk) 19:37, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
A "Mana Project" only says that it's a project by Mana. His being the only permanent member doesn't mean that he's the only member... Malice Mizer was, technically, a "Mana Project" since he was the leader of that band aswell. I've known a few solo projects in my day... four of them are my own. I just don't think that Moi Dix Mois qualifies as one. Ric 20:20, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Mana was not the leader of Malice Mizer; it was more like he and Kozi together, but Kami and Yu~Ki and the vocalist were all very integral to the band. Whenever a vocalist left Malice Mizer the band would turn in a very different direction, proving that each member contributed substantially. I don't think terming it a solo project is very innacurate at all; the only difference between this and other solo projects is that Mana is not a vocalist, making him not always in the spotlight. It should still be considered a solo project. --Berserk798 21:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Malice changed directions a lot. You have to take into account the musical trends of the other members: the changes didn't hinge solely on the vocalists.
So what I'm saying is in a lot of promotional photographs, the whole band is pictured. In interviews, the whole band is there. In a solo project, the contributing musicians would usually just be credited in liner notes and maybe in promo photos, and only the one member would be present in interviews. I also think Mana being in the spotlight just reflects that he is indeed the leader and, to an extent, he's flexing his ego. :) I still don't think solo-project is an accurate description, but it doesn't look like I'm convincing anyone otherwise. Ric 21:34, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Just saw this and it made me cough. "...formerly the leader and guitarist of the influential Japanese band Malice Mizer." :)
Ric 21:38, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

The only members that changed in the band were vocalists, so those are the only examples I have, but what I'm saying is that whenever a member changed, the band changed; that's how integral each one was. I never said that the band's style was hinged on the vocalist.

Mana is almost always the only one featured in promotional photographs; there is only one interview to my knowledge that includes more than just Mana; and Mana is in the spotlight because it's his solo project. The difference between this solo project and other ones is that he is not the vocalist; that's it. He calls it a solo project himself, also, so if for only that reason (though there are more in addition to it) we should call it a solo project. --Berserk798 21:47, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I think that article is innacurate; he wasn't the leader of Malice Mizer. Kozi composed about as many songs as Mana, and the vocalists almost always wrote all of the lyrics. Also, I think Yu~Ki composed the bass part for a lot of the songs. --Berserk798 21:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Writing the most amount of music or the lyrics doesn't make you the leader of the band. I think the article is inaccurate also. :p Ric 22:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
In Japanese bands, one member is often dubbed the "leader" - generally a main contributor, but I think other factors like seniority and popularity often play a role as well. Mana was generally recognized as the "leader" of Malice Mizer; I'll see if I can find a citation for this. Anyway, the point is that the usage of "leader" here is more of a reflection of the popular understanding of the band than an editorial judgement. flowersofnight (talk) 04:19, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Most good bands have a leader. A band is just a kind of group, it's like having a club president or something like that. Ric 11:31, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

It is essentially a solo project, Mana decides who joins, who stays and who leaves, he is the only person in the group who has the ability to fold the band if he wanted to. The other members don't have that power. - Deathrocker 12:29, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

That sounds a lot like what a leader does, except that Mana's "rule" is absolute... In a solo project, the others are usually referred to as collaborators and not band members. They're not considered part of the group. Ric 18:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Image

Image:Moidixmoisportrait.JPG

I like the idea this new image has, but Mana's head isn't completely removed from the picture featuring K and Seth; also, I don't think the black that covers up where is face once was is very clean looking. I have an image that I'm going to upload, and I think we should make a decision between the two. As a side note, I think the current image we have is a little bit small for satisfaction. --Berserk798 21:10, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm thinking maybe this? --Berserk798 21:21, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I think, for an infobox image, that one is a little bit too far-away. One that gets closer to the band's faces would be better. Ric 21:35, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I'll crop it and include it in the article when I find time. --Berserk798 21:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Just Rock

Mana has been quick to say that Moi Dix Mois isn't Visual Kei; he's mentioned in interviews that it's a blend of classical and rock, but it doesn't fit into any preconceived categories. I think we should change the article to say only that it's rock and mention the classical influence. Saying that it's neo-classical metal is way too specific and inaccurate. Ref: [13] [14] --Berserk798 20:40, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

  • He does seem to consider his project more in terms of rock, true. However he has on occasion discussed "visual kei" in the context of Moi dix Mois, especially in international publications. And he is still promoted in visual kei publications in Japan, which is one of the defining indicators of the scene in my personal opinion. I think perhaps listing him both as rock and visual kei would be best. The "neo-classical metal" bit is left over from some bizarre fixation some people have with pigeonholing every group into distinct sub-sub-sub-genres of metal. There have been huge reverting holy-wars over it on this article in the past. I've just left it alone so as not to stir it up again, but if you take it off, I'll back you up. ;) flowersofnight (talk) 12:57, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
Alright, I'm switching "neo-classical metal" to "rock". It's comforting to hear someone sensible is here to back me up ;). --Berserk798 14:35, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

To avoid people complaining about anything along the lines of “You deliberately placed ‘rock’ above ‘visual kei’ to give it more emphasis in the article”, I’ll say that I placed ‘rock’ above ‘visual kei’ in the list of genres because I figure it makes more sense to list the broader genre first, and then the more strictly defined sub-genre second.

After rereading the article, though, I have another objection; I think it’s inaccurate and, above all, unfair to say that Moi Dix Mois’s sound is similar to the later works of Malice Mizer. Mana may have employed similar instrumentation, but he used it very differently and created a completely different sound. The source that says it is similar to the later works of Malice Mizer is clearly erroneous in other aspects as well and probably shouldn’t be cited in this article. Does anyone have objections to me removing that statement from the article? --Berserk798 15:10, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

  • I gave a try at re-working those sentences. You can take it from there. flowersofnight (talk) 18:24, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
I don't think anything further is necessary on those sentences; nice job. --Berserk798 19:03, 25 July 2006 (UTC)
  • I think this is a Metal band, but is inside the Visual Kei style too.

--Iozhii


I just wanted to say that the statement that M10M is influenced by Slayer and Motley Crue is wrong. Mana never said that, he only said he liked them when he was a kid and they got him into Heavy Rock and Heavy Metal (source: MC at Dis Inferno IV, see: http://www.espguitars.co.jp/gallery/mana/20061226/ ). The only musicians he admits to being influenced by are Bach and The Goblin (source: interview in Astan, May 2005 http://www.scape.sc/translations/m10m-astan-apr05.php ). He also never said that M10M are a Metal band or belong to any other genre (including Visual Kei, which he has been critical of - also note the lack of costumes; as opposed to the usually custom-made VK costumes Moi-meme-Moitie was created as every day wear (source: GLB #12) and can be bought in normal shops). Yes, there are strong Metal elements, but also strong elements of classical music, Gothic Rock and more recently Industrial. In fact, the band profile on M10M's OHP states that the concept of M10M is not to play a specific musical style but to combine different styles in order to be unique. Quote: "It is the exercising of different musical styles according to song type and concepts [...] that drive Moi dix Mois to transcend the run-of-the-mill rock band framework." (source: Profile on OHP http://midi-nette.com/mdm/profile-english.htm hover cursor over "Moi dix Mois" to bring it up).

I also noticed that Trisol (European edition of Nocturnal Opera) and Mabell (European edition of Dix Infernal) are missing from the list of labels.

Geisha

[edit] "Citation needed"

"Citation needed" tags have been added to hardly-contestable statements like Slayer and Motley Crue influencing Mana, Mana's plan to have an American tour within the calendar year, etc. I guess we should dig up all of the interviews for these, because it looks bad to have these facts questioned so liberally. I didn't realize that this article claims Moi dix Mois started 10 months after Malice Mizer's breakup. I'm just going to remove that. Berserk798 23:20, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


As I said above ("Just Rock"), Mana never said that his music is influenced by either Slayer or Motley Crue. He only said that he liked them when he was a kid and they got him into Heavy Metal and Heavy Rock. For more details please see "Just Rock".

Geisha

If you want to play that game, he technically only said "I like Goblin". As you can see

here, he has come even closer to explicitly saying that Slayer and Mötley Crüe are influences than he has Goblin.

When asked what band's performance left a permanent impression on him, Mana answered Mötley Crüe. When asked later which other bands inspire him, he said Slayer has "absolutely stamped" him, and that he's liked them since he was a teen. We could say that he was "permanently impressed and inspired by Mötley Crüe and Slayer", but it's briefer and preferable to simply say that they have "influenced" him. If you watch a live performance of Unmoved and one of Raining Blood, you can see a very notable number of parallels in the composition and even the way the pieces are performed. So whether or not Mana has explicitly said "I have been influenced by Slayer and Mötley Crüe", he clearly has been and he has come very close to saying that himself. Actually I'll have to keep searching, because I think he might actually say that in some interview I've overlooked or maybe in a Madousho issue. --Berserk798 21:29, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

In the latest Madousho issue he says,"This spring, when I was on a German television, I was asked what artist had influenced me. I answered, 'In my teen years, Mötley Crüe really had an effect on me.'" So there, in his own words, he's said Mötley Crüe has influenced him. I could probably find a couple more instances in which he's said something of that nature about Mötley Crüe or Slayer, but I think we have enough sources to affirm that he has indeed been influenced by them. Berserk798 21:42, 24 February 2007 (UTC)


I strongly disagree. I don't want to play any game (?) but I think you're putting words in his mouth. He never said that his music is influenced by Slayer or Motley Crue and even if one M10M song bears some resemblance to a Slayer song that leaves some 30 who don't. In fact, he keeps saying that he tries to compose music that is unique and like no other, so I think the statement in the article is both misleading and unfair. Yes, he has said that he has liked Slayer and Motley Crue since he was a teenager but in the quote from the latest Madousho he says that Motley Crue had an effect on him in his teen years and in the issue dedicated to them (#29) he explained how discovering them changed his life by making him turn his back on normalcy. He also said that listening to them now they sound old and that he's losing interest in them. So I think he meant they helped make him the person he is, not that the music of M10M is influenced by them.

Geisha


The "game" you are playing is that he's never said Goblin influenced him any more explicitly than he's said Mötley Crüe or Slayer have—yet you deny that he's said Mötley Crüe and Slayer have influenced him at all while touting his admittance to being influenced by Goblin. In the source you provided, the interviewer asked him what has influenced him--he responded "I like Goblin". Interviewers have since asked him the same thing of Mötley Crüe and Slayer and he has responded the same way. Really, I'm not even sure what you're arguing. The article says, "Mana has stated that he was influenced by such bands as Slayer and Mötley Crüe", which is true.

He has been asked:

  • "Which artists have left a permanent impression on you?"

Mötley Crüe

  • "Which other bands inspire you?"

Slayer

  • "Which artists have influenced you?"

In my teen years, Mötley Crüe really had an effect on me

I used Unmoved as an example, because it really is like an homage to Raining Blood more than an original composition. If you see how the vocalist from Slayer roars "Raining Blood!" and Juka roars "Unmoved!" it's exactly the same. If you see how the lights flash when they headbang, it's exactly the way Slayer does it. The entire composition is a parallel of Raining Blood it seems. All of his latest releases have a very Slayer-esque guitar tone, like everything on Beyond the Gate and Lamentful Miss. Songs like Forbidden and Night Breed definitely wouldn't be too far-off to say they have a hint of Slayer in them.
Point: Mötley Crüe set him on the musical path he's on today. Slayer has clearly influenced his work with Moi dix Mois, especially lately. He has said that they have influenced him. The article also only says that they have been "influences". It doesn't say he tries to emulate them, or that his sound is exactly like theirs, it simply says they have influenced him. Which is true. This fact does not in any way undermine the uniqueness of his work (except, obviously, Unmoved), especially considering Mötley Crüe and Slayer sound nothing alike (you can't sound exactly like two completely different things). Berserk798 00:26, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


I don't understand: pointing out an alternative source is playing a game? I never said Mana as a person wasn't influenced by Motley Crue or Slayer, I said his music isn't. Yes, he said he likes them and they had an effect on him as a kid because they changed him as a person but that's not the same as citing them as direct musical influences, which he hasn't done (sorry to correct you again), yet the Wiki article makes it sound like they are the main musical influences of M10M. Perhaps that's the direction you would like M10M to take but the majority of their work to date, including recent stuff such as Eternally Beyond and Deflower, doesn't resemble either Slayer or Motley Crue, and therefore I think the article is misleading.

Also, you argue that in Astan he only said he likes Goblin, not that he is influenced or inspired by them, yet in the source you posted he says the same about Slayer, so I don't understand why you insist that Slayer and Motley Crue are major influences but Bach and Goblin (who I don't care for BTW, I'm just objecting to cherry-picking) aren't. If you argue that he's influenced by musicians he's expressed admiration for you'd also have to mention them and even Mylene Farmer, not just Slayer and Motley Crue. In fact, if you go by the official profile which defines M10M's music as "dramatic Sympho-Rock" or, in the DIXANADU news on the OHP, "the symphonic and dramatic melody, which is the root of M10M", it sounds like Bach is a major musical influence, yet the Wiki article actually plays down the symphonic element of M10M's music. I think that's misleading.


Geisha


Alright, I guess I'm going to have to break this down point by point:

  • "I don't understand: pointing out an alternative source is playing a game?"

You're lying. I hate to be so confrontational, but this is not what I said at all. In fact, I said nothing of pointing out alternative sources. You claim that Mana has been influenced by Goblin (which is obviously, undeniably true) because in an interview he said "I like Goblin" when asked what artists have influenced him. You deny that he claims to be influenced by Motley Crue and Slayer. In two interviews that I've provided, he was asked the same question and responded "I like Motley Crue" and "Slayer has absolutely stamped me". You have no more evidence for the claim that he was influenced by Goblin than I do for the claim that he was influenced by Slayer and Motley Crue, yet you're arguing against it anyway. That's the game. What do you have to say?

  • "I never said Mana as a person wasn't influenced by Motley Crue or Slayer, I said his music isn't."

Yet you claim Goblin has influenced his music... when he clearly hasn't said anything more of Goblin than he has of Slayer or Motley Crue. What's up with that?

  • "Yes, he said he likes them and they had an effect on him as a kid because they changed him as a person"

Wrong. He said that Motley Crue had an impact on him, because it turned him on to metal. That in itself is quite a musical influence. He has never said anything of Slayer having an effect on him when he was younger--he only says that he is inspired by them.

  • "the Wiki article makes it sound like they are the main musical influences of M10M."

I disagree. The wiki article mentions that he was merely influenced by them after it lists a host of other traits found in his music: "harpsichord, electric guitar, orchestral instrumentation, and operatic vocals". As it stands, it is correct.

  • "Perhaps that's the direction you would like M10M to take"

If you want to get into the personal aspect of this discussion I'll inform you: I was introduced to Mana's work with Bara no Seido, and I loved it because of it's classical sounds and intelligent composition. Many of my favorite Moi dix Mois works are the more sweeping and romantic ones like Monophobia. I certainly am not taking a personal interest in this matter.

  • "but the majority of their work to date, including recent stuff such as Eternally Beyond and Deflower, doesn't resemble either Slayer or Motley Crue, and therefore I think the article is misleading."

Eternally Beyond is both very symphonic and metallic. It is both elegant and rugged. This is the concept of Moi dix Mois, "To combine the diametric opposites". The metallic aspects of it are certainly not unlike Slayer, particularly the guitar sound. Deflower is also very in line with Moi dix Mois' concept, and it's guitar sound also has common factors with Slayer. Obviously none of Moi dix Mois' work sounds anything like Motley Crue, but they turned him on to the metallic direction he has today, which is a musical influence.

  • "Also, you argue that in Astan he only said he likes Goblin, not that he is influenced or inspired by them, yet in the source you posted he says the same about Slayer, so I don't understand why you insist that Slayer and Motley Crue are major influences but Bach and Goblin (who I don't care for BTW, I'm just objecting to cherry-picking) aren't"

This, again, is untrue. I hope it isn't an intentional lie. I never said that he wasn't influenced by Goblin and Bach, and I would never say that in my life. Bach has had extremely obvious influences (Deflower is a perfect example of this. It's also a perfect example of Slayer-esque guitar sound). I've been arguing all along that he has said the same of Goblin and Bach as he has of Slayer and Motley Crue. So for you to deny that he has been influenced by the latter is illogical and self-contradictory, considering you tout the former.

  • "If you argue that he's influenced by musicians he's expressed admiration for you'd also have to mention them and even Mylene Farmer, not just Slayer and Motley Crue"

You're right. He has been influenced by Mylene Farmer. She's more relevant to Malice Mizer, but she gave him the idea to use whispers in music and things like that. Let's add that. And Goblin and Bach as well, since they are wrongly absent from the article.

  • "it sounds like Bach is a major musical influence, yet the Wiki article actually plays down the symphonic element of M10M's music. I think that's misleading."

Bach's music has little to do with the symphonic sound and a lot to do with the harpsichord and dual-guitars (counterpoint). I don't think the symphonic element is downplayed in this article. A minority of Moi dix Mois songs actually have a symphonic sound. Piano and harpischord are not symphonic, and violins are not neccessarily symphonic. Shadows Temple and Dialogue Symphonie are really the only "symphonic" songs in the Moi dix Mois repertoire that I can think of at the moment. Berserk798 22:00, 25 February 2007 (UTC)


  • "You claim that Mana has been influenced by Goblin (which is obviously, undeniably true) because in an interview he said "I like Goblin" when asked what artists have influenced him. You deny that he claims to be influenced by Motley Crue and Slayer. In two interviews that I've provided, he was asked the same question and responded "I like Motley Crue" and "Slayer has absolutely stamped me". You have no more evidence for the claim that he was influenced by Goblin than I do for the claim that he was influenced by Slayer and Motley Crue, yet you're arguing against it anyway. That's the game. What do you have to say?"

OK, I get it - I think we're talking past each other. You think I'm arguing that he is influenced by Bach and Goblin but not by Motley Crue and Slayer, right? That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. My point is two-fold: 1) I think the article in its current form is misleading because it only mentions Motley Crue and Slayer but not also Bach, Goblin and Mylene Farmer, and 2) I think to say Mana has stated that he is influenced by any of the aforementioned isn't accurate because he hasn't explicitly said so. So I think we agree on 1) but probably not on 2) right?

Which brings me to:

  • "He has been influenced by Mylene Farmer. She's more relevant to Malice Mizer, but she gave him the idea to use whispers in music and things like that. Let's add that. And Goblin and Bach as well, since they are wrongly absent from the article."

As I said, I agree with you – Bach, Slayer, Motley Crue, The Goblin and Mylene Farmer are the artists he has repeatedly expressed admiration for. However I think to say he has stated that he's influenced by any of them – as the Wiki article claims – is too much. Yes, he was asked who influences/inspires him/his music and he responded that he likes them but I don't think saying he likes them is the same as explicitly citing them as musical influences. Perhaps something along these lines would be more accurate (I also think pipe organ should be mentioned since next to electric guitar and harpsichord it's one of his trade mark instruments):

Moi dix Mois' sound incorporates some of the elements that Mana previously favored while in Malice Mizer, such as harpsichord, pipe organ, electric guitar, orchestral instrumentation and operatic vocals. However, the gothic romanticism of late-period Malice Mizer music has largely been supplanted by a harder-edged heavy metal-inspired sound. He has expressed admiration for artists as diverse as Bach, Slayer, Mötley Crüe, The Goblin and Mylene Farmer and their influence can be heard in some of his work. In keeping with the concept of a solo project, Mana's lyrics for Moi dix Mois are more personal than those he has written for Malice Mizer, veering between melancholy romanticism and deep depression.

I won't go into the points you raised about who said what about Slayer and Motley Crue since I think they're moot as I wasn't claiming that he's influenced by Bach and Goblin but not by Motley Crue and Slayer (I'm fully ware of what he said BTW but I didn't feel it was necessary to go into minute detail since it had little bearing on the point I was trying to bring across, which was 2) above). However:

  • "A minority of Moi dix Mois songs actually have a symphonic sound. Piano and harpischord are not symphonic, and violins are not neccessarily symphonic. Shadows Temple and Dialogue Symphonie are really the only "symphonic" songs in the Moi dix Mois repertoire that I can think of at the moment."

I strongly disagree. M10M's official website calls their music sympho-rock and only 3 weeks ago talked about "the symphonic and dramatic melody, which is the root of M10M" (and you said yourself that Eternally Beyond is both very symphonic and metallic). But let's not go further into that, there's no point in having an argument over something that's become largely irrelevant to the discussion.

Lastly: I guess this isn't the place for personal comments but I must say I'm taken aback by your confrontational attitude. I could have just gone and edited the entry but instead I added my views to the discussion here. Of course you're free to disagree with them but your reaction was to accuse me of lying and playing games and to lecture me in a rude and patronising manner that's totally uncalled for. I think you mean well but there's no need for this aggression.

Geisha

Alright. I'm baffled at how you meant what you are now saying considering what you wrote in the Just Rock section, but we can put it past us. When I clearly state my point, and you turn around and severly misunderstand/misquote it, I'm not exactly sure what else I can do but confront you to set it straight. I think the confrontation I created is what's allowed us to conclude this conversation. And to conclude:
Now that we've sorted all of this out, I think your proposition for the article is acceptable and preferable to the current (except maybe alter the "Mana's lyrics [...] veering between melancholy romanticism and deep depression" part. I think that's a little silly). Just go ahead an make the change.
Oh, and your attitude toward aggression is totally girly :P Berserk798 03:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)


  • "Now that we've sorted all of this out, I think your proposition for the article is acceptable and preferable to the current (except maybe alter the "Mana's lyrics [...] veering between melancholy romanticism and deep depression" part. I think that's a little silly). Just go ahead an make the change."

Unfortunately the article is protected and can only be edited by established registered users. I tried using my login in but it won't let me edit (perhaps my registration is too recent). So here's my suggestion for the new paragraph; I tried to make the bit about the lyrics sound a bit less EMO:

Moi dix Mois' sound incorporates some of the elements that Mana previously favored while in Malice Mizer, such as harpsichord, pipe organ, twin electric guitars, orchestral instrumentation and operatic vocals. However, the gothic romanticism of late-period Malice Mizer music has largely been supplanted by a harder-edged metal-inspired sound. In interviews Mana has expressed a liking for artists as diverse as Johann Sebastian Bach, Slayer, Mötley Crüe, The Goblin and Mylene Farmer and their influence can be heard in some of his work. In keeping with the concept of a solo project, his lyrics for Moi dix Mois are more personal than those he has written for Malice Mizer and center around themes of world weariness, loss and death.
  • "When I clearly state my point, and you turn around and severely misunderstand/misquote it, I'm not exactly sure what else I can do but confront you to set it straight. I think the confrontation I created is what's allowed us to conclude this conversation."

I don't see how being confrontational helps to clear up misunderstandings. You could have made your points just as well without being aggressive, which you were from your very first reply, in which you accused me of playing games (a misunderstanding on your part) and we would have come to the same conclusion.

  • "Oh, and your attitude toward aggression is totally girly :P "

I'm not sure what you mean by that but if it's girly to expect people to be polite throughout a discussion, instead of acting rude and self-important from the start, then I'm happy to be girly.  :)

Geisha

Alright, the deed is done. Berserk798 21:23, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Add Pronunciation

I'm pretty sure there are a lot of people that don't know that it's pronounced Mwa Dees Mwa. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tripp5twiggy (talk • contribs) 04:24, 15 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Gothic rock

"Gothic rock/metal"? Have any of you looked at the gothic rock page? They are too very different things, so pick one. They are not the same, and gothic metal is not even listed on the gothic subculture page. Gothic rock was a movement in the eighties, and gothic metal is something else. The slash is very misleading and incorrect.

I had to remove gothic rock again from the page. They are never referred to that in Japan and only mistakenly labeled as such in America due to unfamiliar presumptions on what gothic rock is. I understand that the rock and metal may be to broad for some people to accept but find support for a better one rather than merely changing it to a wrong genre that you "think" they belong in. Even reading above this you can see how people talk of their metal leanings, and gothic rock has no connection to metal. However, the genre gothic metal exists which may be worth looking into.
Even gothic metal wouldn't do it. If you listen to M10M and listen to gothic metal bands like Evereve, it's very simple to see that they are nothing alike. If anything other than simply "metal," I would call M10M Symphonic metal. Ric | opiaterein 13:19, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 21:32, 9 November 2007 (UTC)