Talk:Mod (lifestyle)

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[edit] Stylized Target??

Isn't that just a Royal Air Force roundel? The Ben Sherman article says he like to use RAF colors.

Or were those Mods flying Spitfires in World War II? -- Paul Richter 12:27, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Research on Google Image shows targets on the cover of magazines and things: Here. And it is the same as the RAF logo. --huwr 03:02, 26 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It's gone. I'm replacing it with a photo of the Kinks for two reasons. They are the best known Mod-type band and a great example of the fashion. I am removing the RAF roundel for all of the above reasons and for what it's worth: it really is an RAF roundel, the same one used by all the RAF wikis. Alan Parmenter 17:57, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't think you're right about the Kinks. Their fashion began in the jacket-and-tie format of most British pop groups of the time, but their hair was a bit long and scruffy, as reflected in your photo, and The Book of Rock Lists called them "too Edwardian to really fit" into the mod scene. (See cover of debut LP--very frilly.) I think most sources cite their musical significance for the mods but don't identify them as a mod band per se. The Who is surely just as popular, and more strongly asociated with mod. The Small Faces better exemplify the fashion (of the mid-sixties mod). 82.45.161.53 17:32, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
By now, you will be thinking that I must have been sent here specifically to annoy you - apologies for that. However, I feel obliged to point out the fair use licensing terms for that image (the album cover) specifically state it may only be used to illustrate the recording itself - that would exclude it's use here, I think. Please see here for full details. CiaranG 18:13, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

YES it is a roundel, not a target an I think the article should be changed to reflect this. -unsigned

  • Also, I don't think I've ever seen any photos of 1960s mods wearing roundels, other than Keith Moon (and that was due to their manager molding their image). According the wide range of photos I've seen, most 1960s mods wore button-down shirts (or polo shirts to a lesser extent), V-neck sweaters and other pullovers, suits or blazers - confining T-shirts to undershirt status (unlike the rockers who wore them as outerwear). I don't think I've noticed 1960s mods wearing the roundel as patches on parkas either, but maybe someone can prove otherwise. It seems to be more of a Mod Revival thing. Spylab 16:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mod revival

have started article on Mod Revival.

Please don't merge, at least not yet...

--MacRusgail 11:10, 17 September 2005 (UTC)

Interesting to see that SLC Punk didn't come up in the discussion, as Mods are mentioned in it, and it's a fairly popular movie that deals with some of the "clashes" between "punks" and "mods" etc... -JX

[edit] Mod fashion

This is the same mod as the 1960s fashion, twiggy, oversized brightly colored dresses and trenchcoat themes?

-- by the mid to late 60s and beyond the term mod was being used as an adjective to describe the things you mention - and lots more besides. Almost anything considered trendy, cool, youthful or British in fact. However the original mod subculture is a million miles apart from this later usage of the word. I have inserted a sentence near the beginning of the article explaining this difference. Hope this helps. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.85.11 (talk) 23:46, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mod deletion

So, let's discuss WHY the recent deletion concerning "false claims" happened. I'm, not going to put it back up because I don't want to clutter this site, but I'll challenge anybody on any of the statemnts made. Now, you want to edit and discuss it with me, fine. Don't be a prick and just delete everything that I said when I can ABSOLUTELY come up with references from local pub owners who were Mods back in the day, and never even recognized the split between Mods and Skins. They took it for granted that they were two fingers on the same hand. You want to debate points here, fine. Don't outright yank it because you bought a Kinks album and a Lambretta. If we don't come to a resolution within a week, I'm putting my addition back up. I didn't say anything not verifiable through readily available sources besides actually speaking to people who were there. One of the people who proofread this for facts was the former guitarist for The Numbers and later of 5:30. How else do you find out info besides interviewing anyone who was involved? Oh, I'm sorry, you used the internet.

OK, so I found the problem... the three bands mentioned are "have nothing to do with mod" right? Yeah, stay stuck in 1965. So, Franz Ferdinand isn't featured on the Merc "favored bands list"? Sure, we'll debate The Strokes. RadioNation even rsembles the four Merc accessory figures. MODERNIST MODERNIST MODERNIST How many times does it have to be said? If you are stuck in the sixties.... well, that's not MODERN, is it? Was your vespa built in 1966? I didn't even bother bringing up the whole Two-tone movement. ALL of the British subcultures had the roots in the Mod scene somehow. Hell, I just noticed that Oasis wasn't even mentioned. I would have ben more than happy to edit and alter anything that I wrote, but evidently there are some real know-it-alls here.

Dinoyn5 23:03, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


Read this ... This explains it all. http://www.uppers.org/whatismod.asp


I just noticed this discussion, and looked at what I think are the changes in question. Some of the statements were based in truth, but others played fast and loose with the facts.

There's no debate that skinheads came from mods. This is well articulated in the skinhead article. One false claim that got deleted was that the creation of skinheads was based on a rejection of leftism. There have always been left-wing mods and skinheads (as well representatives of the rest of the political spectrum). And not all psychedelic and hippy types were/are politically-minded lefties. The split was mostly based on style, class, lifestyle and music, not left-right politics. Also, it's not "widely believed" that skinhead fashion is a "direct" rejection of the hippie look. Skinhead style evolved positively from mod fashion, not as a negative reaction to other subcultures.

The mention of the revival band from New Orleans is more like self-promotion (or promotion of a friend's band) than anything relevant to the overal understanding of mod culture.

I don't know of a single mod who would refer to current indie rock/disco/punk/new wave-influenced bands like Franz Ferdinand, The Strokes or The Killers as mod. The bands don't pretend to be mods either. What makes them mod, other than the fact that some of the members wear suits? The Strokes don't even have that going for them, since they dress like slobs.

This article needs a lot more details about mods, but quality over quantity should be the guiding principle. Spylab 18:32, 19 May 2006 (UTC)Spylab


[edit] German electronica = Mod? Since when?

To the person (or persons) who keep saying the electronic music scene is somehow mod, you'll have to do better than just say "look at their websites" in order to convince people. First of all, the sites are in German, so that doesn't help. Second, just because someone dresses like a mod and uses a few mod-influenced images, doesn't mean they are really mods, or that their style of music is part of the mod scene. If that was the case, then techno-listening gabbers would be considered real skinheads, just because they have shaved heads and wear some skinhead clothes. Or Ashley Simpson would be considered punk rock because she borrows some punk fashions and images.Spylab 13:19, 24 May 2006 (UTC)spylab


[edit] German electronica = Mod? Not at all?

Spylab, nobody is claiming the german electronics scene in general is somehow mod. The claim is that certain musicians who are part of this scene are mods. They use mod imagery, they dress like mods, they are influenced by mod music, especially in the case of Frank Popp's style, which is quite obviously a modernized version of Northern Soul. There's even a thread on Frank Popp at modculture.co.uk. (http://www.modculture.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9636&highlight=frank+popp)

Obviously, electronics is not what is considered "classic" mod music, but then that is the entire point of mod: modernism, not backwardism. You wouldn't want to disqualify Weller for using synthesizers, would you? Both Erobique, who's latest Album was named "Keil Stouncil à Paris", an obvious play on "Style Council à Paris" and lotte ohm. have publically stated their mod backgrounds, and the latter, according to his website, is an active Northern Soul DJ. If the Ordinary Boys are going to be included, why not Erobique, Popp & ohm.? And while we're on the subject of electronic music: Noonday Underground are another band worth mentioning when speaking of modern mod music... (this time they're english.)

There's a big difference between mod and "mod-influenced." I listened to music samples of one of the German artists you listed, and I don't hear any connection to mod whatsoever. I don't think people would consider Style Council a genuine mod band either. They were more of a new wave synth-pop band, and many mods don't like them. As for the Ordinary Boys, the article says they were influenced by mod. Thats a bit different than what was written about the German electronic artists.

I'm still not convinced that mod culture "runs strong" in the German electronic music scene, and that the artists listed are "obviously" mods, but I'd like to read other people's opinions. Spylab 15:23, 24 May 2006 (UTC)spylab


What is the "big difference"? Care to elaborate? Were The Who mod or "mod-influenced"? The Small Faces? The Jam? Who decides? Is there a mod council nowadays that decides who and what is mod or not? Do we, via ouija-board, ask Pete Meaden?

Anyway, why not change the text to say that they are "mod-influenced" instead of just deleting it? I don't mind - I was just making what I considered to be an interesting point about the continuing influence of mod even outside of Britain. Whether or not the people I mentioned are "true mods" I cannot say, and, frankly, I don't care. To be "real mods" they'd have to be about sixty anyway... They're certainly influenced by mod. For what it's worth, Style Council were mod in my opinion.


Who or what is "mod" vs. "mod-influenced" is in the eye of the beholder in some cases, but is cut and dry in other cases. There's no official mod council that I know of, but there have to be certain agreed-upon standards, or else the term has no meaning. Strong statements need to be backed up by strong evidence. Your rewording is a lot more accurate than what was there before.Spylab 16:35, 24 May 2006 (UTC)spylab

[edit] Mod as a genre

Why are some people so reluctant to recognise Mod as a music genre within rock?


  • Music associated with the mod subculture is already mentioned in the article: modern jazz, soul, RnB, ska, British "beat" music and others. All of those can be described as "mod music." What's your definition of the specific music genre called "Mod"? Spylab 17:02, 22 June 2006 (UTC)Spylab
The music that the Who played for a start. Which wouldn't fall under jazz, soul or ska.
  • The music that The Who played when they were considered a mod band was mostly RnB, which is already mentioned in the article. If you want to claim that "Mod" is a specific music genre, you have to clearly define what it is.Spylab 17:26, 23 June 2006 (UTC)Spylab


[edit] Tag

I don't think the "unreferenced" tag is deserved, since much of this article relies on first hand accounts. The 1960's is not ancient history and there is plenty of truth and value in the memories of real people. Having deleted the tag once I think I need some support. Alan Parmenter 17:53, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but one of the key principles of Wikipedia is that information must be verifiable. First-hand accounts are specifically not allowed. Thus, the unreferenced tag is definitely deserved, and should remain until the information is either referenced, or removed. Please start by reading WP:V, which is official Wikipedia policy. Another official policy such first hand accounts would fall foul of is No Original Research, which you can read here: WP:OR. Cheers, CiaranG 18:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
  • There have been plenty of books and articles written about the mod subculture, so it shouldn't be hard to find references. It's just a matter of taking the time and energy to do so. Spylab 16:13, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Queen of the Mods

"Cathy McGowan, who hosted the television pop music show Ready Steady Go!, became known as the "Queen of the Mods" (a title sometimes also applied to singer Dusty Springfield and model Twiggy)."

Is there a source for this? I wouldn't be surprised to find it said of McGowan or (I suppose) Twiggy, but Dusty Springfield seems a bit unlikely. Those huge dresses for one thing - hardly mod couture. BTLizard 10:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)


Erm...what about the king of the mods!?!?! Noel Fielding? Isn't he worth mentioning in this article? xxx G


haha I think everyone just wants their favourite bands featured on here, I know I do, (Small Faces)yet they and Steve Marriott have hardly a mention - but anyway The Who were great but they were not really mod as such they were "manufactured mods" wasn't they? Roger Daltrey was definitely anyway. Sue Wallace 21:05, 14 May 2007 (UTC)


Spylab, thanks for editing the pics Sue Wallace 21:08, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mars symbol

What (if any) is the significance of the Mars symbol to Mods? It's on the Quadrophenia album artwork, and the "Q" in the movie title is also a similar symbol. I've also seen the symbol in mod graffiti on walls. Does it mean anything? RobbieG 21:15, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

-- none of the extensive research I have carried out on the original modernists and mods has ever revealed any significance or meaning behind this symbol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.85.11 (talk) 23:48, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mods Outside Britain

It's my understanding that mods existed several places outside Britain, notably Australia, yet I see no mention in the article. -MichiganCharms 04:41, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

a mod scene exist (since the 80's, but is still quite active) in Italy, especially in turin. Jack

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Twiggy60's.jpg

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BetacommandBot 06:54, 29 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Mod is not modernism

In the extensive research I have carried out I have never heard of mod being referred to as modernism apart from by select authors such as Eddie Pillar and Paolo Hewitt

Whoever has added that supposed fact to the article has not provided any sources to the contrary.

The following sources have been quoted:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/southyorkshire/stage/2003/05/mods/index.shtml

http://www.retroland.com/pages/retropedia/fashion/item/3649/

http://www.geocities.com/eero67/image/paper.htm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/lincolnshire/asop/people/mods_rockers.shtml

http://www.modculture.co.uk/culture/culture.php?id=45

However, NONE of them refer to mod as modernism apart from last one (from Modculture.com). And that is simply an article by Eddie Pillar with no references provided. Hardly credible. Many reliable sources suggest that the word mod comes from modernist, but the term modernism was never used as far as I can tell. To prove otherwise a source needs to be provided.

Also note that online sources that do not contain references themselves are not very credible - especially if they do not contain first hand experience or research to back up their claims. Otherwise it is just opinion.

Can we please leave out the description of mod as modernism until a citation is provided? Or at least mark it as needing a source to back it up. Thanks. Rant over.unsigned

  • Correction: every single one of those references use the term modernism or modernist when referring to the mod subculture. According to standard English language rules, a modernist is someone who follows modernism.Spylab 01:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • Ok, just so there's no room for debate, I changed the word modernism to modernist, although it does seem to be splitting hairs, since the two words are intrinsically linked.Spylab 01:52, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
    • That was my point. They use the word modernist not modernism (apart from Eddie Pillar's article which I acknowledged). I believe you are wrong about the link between modernist used in this context and the word modernism. Modernist used in this sense refers to players of, or fans of, modern jazz. It doesn't refer to followers of the modernism movement (that has very different connotations). As far as I have read, modern jazz, or a love of modern jazz, has never been referred to as modernism. I have no problem admitting I'm wrong if you can find a source to prove it.
    • Before you get me wrong though, please let me say I think you've been doing a great job with this article. I want you to know I'm not here to cause trouble, vandalise or be a nuisance. I'm only here to help. I have read a vast number of books on mods, modernists and modern jazz and so feel I am in a useful position to help with this article. I also have a good education and some journalistic experience.
    • I don't have much time to dedicate to Wikipedia I'm afraid (still learning) as I work full-time and long hours; but bit by bit I'd like to see this article become a great testament to the mod subculture which has so often been neglected or misunderstood, even by the mainstream press and history books.
    • I already added a paragraph in the main body text explaining how the word mod is believed to derive from modernist. Believe me, I'm not trying to split hairs but I think that it is not accurate to say that mod (as a subculture) is also called modernist. Mods were called modernists, but mod as a movement wasn't. It's also ungrammatical English. I believe you are right to say that mod has been referred to as modism, by Pete Meaden, however that is not common usage from what I have read.
    • Maybe we could compromise and write:
    • Mod (occasionally referred to as modism or modernism)
    • What do you think?
    • You may think I'm pedantic, and maybe I am. But that's a mod trait! I think this article should demonstrate such attention to detail as to do the original mod movement proud.
    • I'll do my best to help work alongside you as and when I have time. I'll also try to look up more of my sources. I have a near library of books at home, so it can be hard to locate (or even remember) the ones I want.
    • 81.106.85.11 02:53, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I realized you're trying to make this article better, as am I. I do agree that there is some grammatical issues that need to be settled. For example mod could refer to an individual person or the entire subculture, or it could be used as an adjective. I'll see if there is another way to word the sentence so it is totally accurate and grammatically correct. Any more references you can add to the article would be much appreciated, since everything should be backed up by reliable sources.Spylab 21:15, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is my latest edit, which I think solves the problems, although perhaps it would be better if there weren't two sets of brackets:

A mod (shortened from the original term modernist) is a member of a subculture (sometimes known as modism) that originated in London in the late 1950s and peaked in the early to mid 1960s.

Spylab 21:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pop art

I have never heard of orginal mods (as opposed to revival or contemporary era mods) having a particular interest in pop art. Can anyone provide a source? The Who were famously interested in pop art of course, but they were not mods. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.106.85.11 (talk) 00:03, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hard Mods were not called Gang Mods

I cannot see any reference to Hard Mods being called Gang Mods. They were commonly members of gangs of course, but I have never once heard of them being called gang mods. I read the quoted sources which all mention the term hard mods and mention gangs but do not seem to contain the phrase gang mods anywhere.

I vote we delete the line claiming hard mods are also known as gang mods. If you like we can add a line instead explaining that they were usually members of gangs.

81.106.85.11 21:16, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

  • I may have book references that use the term gang mods, but I don't have a problem with removing the term for now.Spylab 21:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
    • OK, thanks. And thanks for moving these topics to the bottom. Apologies if I broke guidelines. Still new to Wikipedia and learning as I go along! By the way looking at the article history, looks like you've worked hard on it! Pleased to work alongside you. 81.106.85.11 00:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mods in the arts and/or famous mods?

Is it appropriate to have a section listing famous examples of real-life or fictional mods? Or is that too trivial for an encyclopedia article? I ask here as I'm sure it's been thought about already although I didn't notice specific Talk on it. Thanks!! 81.106.85.11 00:35, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Working class pride?

What does it mean exactly to say that "skinheads ... mainly represented working class pride"? Does it mean consciously or subconsciously? Do we have a trustworthy reference for this? 81.106.85.11 01:07, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No images in article?

Given that this article describes a fashion trend that is based on visual items such as clothes, this article needs images! Several of them, preferably. No amount of description can replace a few well-thought photos. Radishes (talk) 02:16, 28 January 2008 (UTC)