Talk:Miyakejima

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[edit] Jack Moyer section

This section was obviously written by someone who greatly admires Jack Moyer. However, in order to maintain the neutrality required by Wikipedia, this section needs to be rewritten. --日本穣 Nihonjoe 02:54, 25 April 2006 (UTC)

I really see no neutrality problems in this section. I don't know much about Jack Moyer, but he did something good to save that Japanese bird. And he sounds like a nice guy. SatanxSucks 22:24, 21 May 2006 (UTC)SatanxSucks
I agree that he did some great things, and that he sounds like a nice guy, but this paragraph needs to be rewritten to get rid of the obvious POV:
Jack Moyer was a true naturalist, talking warmly about the nature on the Izu islands and promoting the need for preservation of the islands unique biology. Having spent so many years on the island he was painfully aware of the changes being brought by the modern day society. Construction of public roads and harbours claiming more and more of Miyakejimas forest areas and increasing car traffic and pollution of the sea was something he was deeply and wholeheartedly working against.
Can you really not see how this paragraph is POV? ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:05, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

I wrote the original piece about J.M. but I didn't add the section that NihonJoe has trouble with. However, if we look at it, I also see no problem with it. My understanding of a true naturalist would be someone who would be concerned with the changes that modern society would bring, ESPECIALLY to a small island with a very unique ecosystem. To deny that modern society does NOT bring about changes, whether positive or negative, would be POV. I met Jack twice. The first was June, 1997, on Miyake. The local JET was hosting a group of other JETs for a diving expedition. While we were visiting, Jacques Mayol (the diver of Le Grand Bleu fame) was also there and the two Jacks/Jacques gave a talk about the environment and the ecosytem. What I remember most distinctly was the warm welcome that both men received from the over-flowing crowd of locals. The locals, TOO, were concerned about the same issues that the Jacks/Jacques were talking about. But it was a bureaucracy and a construction industry based in Tokyo that were pushing more and more construction on the fragile ecosystems. I spent two years on Niijima ('96-'98). I know too well about roads and bridges to nowhere but red ink and a destroyed ecology. Visit Kozushima please. The industry forced onto the islanders and mountain tunnel on a remote, unused, and uninhabited corner of the island that goes to the end of the tunnel only. At the end of a tunnel? A barricade so you don't crash into the water below. That's it. I'm removing the POV tag.DDD DDD 04:20, 23 June 2006 (UTC)


Nihonjoe, why did you put that NPOV tag back in the article? It is not necessary.DDD DDD 07:02, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it is. The section still uses POV phrasing such as "true naturalist", "painfully aware", and "deeply and wholeheartedly against". That phrasing smacks of "point of view" and doesn't belong here. Please do not remove the tag again until the section has been modified to bring it in line with Wikipedia's neutral point of view guidelines. ···日本穣

? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:56, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read it again. It does say "true naturalist" but it doesn't say those other things. Read the text before you start reverting things. If the word "true" bothers you so much, take it out. Thanks for your good effort, though.DDD DDD 08:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I have made some changes to the style of the Jack Moyer section. I know it was a bit hasty and unilateral of me, but if you don't like it, you can always change it back. It seems to me that Nihonjoe's problem with it was mainly just in the phrasing - I understand completely the feeling one can get in working with someone directly, reading their books, or meeting them in person, and wanting to write about them in a fond, warm way, praising their activities. But that's just not the way we can do things here at Wikipedia. We need to be a bit more objective. Now, my next question is whether we should move about half this section to a separate Jack Moyer article - it sounds like his activities were important, essential even, to the ecology of the islands, but ultimately this here is an article about the islands, not about him. I'd suggest that the last paragraph and perhaps the first one be eliminated or moved. Again, I apologize for coming in here unannounced and making all these changes and writing a giant full paragraph like this, but it seemed the thing to do. LordAmeth 13:07, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, LordAmeth. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate the work by L.A. It sounds better than what I had written. Again, as I wrote above, I introduced the topic of Jack back in Feb - because I think Jack is/was an important conservationist, educator, gaijin, and so on... who lived on Miyakejima and I was surprised that there had been nothing previously written on him - but I did not write the paragraph that N'joe had trouble with. Just as many pages of Japan's cities, towns, wards, etc. have names/links to famous (usually Japanese) people (of questionable talent - yes, I realise the non-npov phrase), Jack, despite his outspoken-ness, deserved a mention on Miyake's page. And while I didn't think the paragraph that N'joe was displeased with was the best written paragraph on w'pedia, I didn't think it was so terrible either. There were some things I didn't like about it, so I made changes to it today when I came across the npov article. N'joe then quickly re-inserted the POV title without bothering to read at all what I had written. That bothered me. I wonder, still, why do people put tags on articles instead of actually making changes to the article. If someone thinks a paragraph about someone/thing is questionable, why not take a knife/dictionary to it? That npov languished there for maybe 2 months before I found it. By the way, I'm aware of how things work here. That's why I permitted myself to wax lyrically of a meeting with Jack & Jacques above in this discussion and not in the article. That's why I went to the paragraph and made changes to it. That's why I was offended when N'joe re-inserted the npov without any indication that he had re-read the article. That's why I was more offended when he inserted again and wrote that the problem language ("painfully aware", and "deeply and wholeheartedly against") were still troubling him when those expressions had already been removed. I moved to meet him halfway and he kept inserted that horrible npov tag. As I wrote just now and above earlier, if there is something you don't like, just get rid of it yourself. That's one of the many beautiful points of w'pedia.DDD DDD 14:17, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

You're completely misunderstanding what I wrote. I never once said that what you wrote was "so terrible" or even slightly terrible. I only said it had many POV parts in it that didn't belong in a Wikipedia article. And the NPOV tag is not horrible. It's not an affront to you personally, nor is it intended to be. When I placed it there, I thought that content was still part of the article, but I must have been viewing an older version. I'm human, and I make mistakes sometimes. I apologize for making a mistake. I suggest you take LordAmeth's suggestion and put some of your energy into making a separate article about Jack Moyer. You apprently know a lot about him, so please put that knowledge to work. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 07:05, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Maybe we are saying the same things but looking at it from a different angle. Or ...something. All is better with the article now - despite the "complete misunderstandings" that occurred and that remain. (Again, I did NOT write the construed-as-npov-paragraph and because it wasn't best I did make changes to it. Since I did not write it, I NEVER thought that you were saying my writing was "so terrible". Maybe you are right, maybe the npov tag isn't horrible. But when I see it in an article, a flag goes up. Thanks for the suggestion, by the way. Itsuka... And if I may make a suggestion, next time something appears npov, just try and fix it yourself.DDD DDD 08:20, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Hello, I am the one who wrote the section causing someone to put a tag on it. I don't log in on wikipedia so often, and I'm not a native english speaker. I wrote about Jack because I felt his environmental concern was not mentioned enough. I met him myself in 1997, and most of what I wrote was things he talked about with me. If someone prefer to edit or rewrite it in a more neutral way I don't mind. I can see why someone felt it was not "neutral" written, but then again Jack wasn't neutral on the environmental issue. Neither am I, so I wrote it to make people who never met him know what opinions he had. It was just my honest impression of him and his island life and struggles. At least DDD DDD has understood the point. :-) That makes me feel I wasn't completely off the mark with what I wrote. Orjanbye 21:18, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References

I didn't write this article, but I am going to poke my nose in and ask: What exactly do you think needs to be referenced here? Do we need to provide references to prove that the island is in fact southeast of Honshu, administered by the Tokyo Met. Gov't, and accessible by ferry? This is not exactly the kind of thing that's disputed or anything. LordAmeth 11:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I saw that too the other day during the Jack Moyer npov/pov discussion. I wasn't sure if the "references" tag was related to Jack or other information regarding the island. I didn't want to remove it as I was already in over my head on one issue. Just doing a quick google, I found this brief article about Jack and the island [1] on the Asahi dot com page. And here's a story from the New York Times from 1987 that I just found about Miyake & Jack [2]. And here's another good article on Just Jack from Zoom info [3].DDD DDD 12:31, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Mostly references about Jack Moyer, though a few references for the physical facts of the article would be good, too. ···日本穣? · Talk to Nihonjoe 16:08, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Is it necessary? Is something in dispute or questionable or...?DDD DDD 21:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Now I don't think we really need references for the article. However, the web pages I noted above, I put them in the article as external links.DDD DDD 04:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Something about Jack (or Moyashi) as teacher at ASIJ

Hau Kola, Just saw your article on Miyakejima and Jack. If you are going to put Jack in the story, then you also need to say something about him as a mentor and teacher at ASIJ (the American School in Japan) and all the trips for the 7th graders he led to Miyakejima. I was one of them and due to a Typhoon when my group went, I believe it was in 1970, we spent a couple of weeks stranded on the island. It was an intense and important lesson in other cultures and looking outside of ourselves. Jack was an important part of that journey for me and the hundreds of other students who traveled to Miyakejima over the years as a student of his at ASIJ. Thanks. Take Care. Doksha, Ken Chiancone —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.35.219.169 (talk) 14:41, 23 January 2007 (UTC).

I, too, was a 7th grade field tripper to Miyake with Dr. Moyer. His legacy is very important to ASIJ students and to the residents of Miyake Jima. However, I can't help but wonder if there can be a new page devoted to him rather than to make half of a geographical reference encylopedia page about him. Tiktok4321 (talk) 19:19, 21 February 2008 (UTC)