Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:WikiProject Kenoyim

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was delete. Resurgent insurgent 07:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:WikiProject Kenoyim

A very special thanks to User:DLand and User:Jayjg for the heads-up. This WikiProject is a blatant attempt to violate WP:NPOV by an anti-Zionist user. I freely admit to being strongly pro-Zionist, but I think the page should be deleted solely based on Wikipedia policy. Shalom ^Hello 16:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• Comment - To declare page an NPOV violation seems a little extreme at this point, given the page's existing content. Whether there is sufficient content or justification for the project to exist is one thing, but to say that a WikiProject devoted to possible correcting systemic bias in the Judaism WikiProject (as per the page itself) is inherently NPOV seems a bit of a stretch to me. WikiProject Countering systemic bias and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion show such groups can be at least somewhat successful. I could see the page being deleted later, should it remain lacking in content, and certainly wouldn't oppose it's integration into either the Judaism or Countering systemic bias in religion WikiProjects as a task force/work group. But, right now, I think that with the page only being created yesterday, a lack of content is still to be expected. At this point, I am leaning toward Keep, or at least userfy-ing the page and maybe listing it on the proposed WikiProjects page to see if the group has enough support to have a chance of success. John Carter 17:13, 27 June 2007 (UTC) (NOTE:opinion expressed below)
• Support Deletion - I understand and agree with some of John Carter's comments. However, I think that some of them may be misplaced. The first thing is that the organization's name, Kenoyim, literally means "Zealots" in Hebrew. The black flag is a flag used by the Neturei Karta organization, an extremist anti-Zionist organization. The group's proponent is a frequent violator of Wikipedia's policies on civility and most recently was accused of advancing two sockpuppets. He is a good friend (seemingly in real life, as well as on the computer screen) with Daniel575, a user who was previously banned, and whose 6th sockpuppet was just recently banned. I only mention this because while it was obvious to most of the parties involved that the user User:Rabbeinu was in fact User:Daniel575, (something that Rabbeinu, in fact, never denied), Shia1 personally attacked everyone involved in banning this latest sockpuppet. Since Shia1 claimed to know Rabbeinu and Daniel575 personally, it is a safe assumption that he knew very well that the two users were one and the same. This was of no import to Shia1, who is only concerned with advancing his own viewpoint. Though he is perfectly happy to do so while hiding behind Wikipedia policies, when those policies are not favorable to him, he is just as happy breaking those policies. A simple perusal of his editing record (particularly of late) will make that point clear. For anyone worried about deleting a project that stands for historical veracity, deleting *this* Wikiproject will not be violative of your concerns. I, for one, believe that veracity in the reporting of Zionism and the history of the State of Israel is very important. There is much that was and is objectionable about the State of Israel from numerous points of view. Only one of those is the religious point of view. But this forum is not the proper one for accomplishing that goal. --Meshulam 18:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - Leanings and strength thereof aside, this looks like a POV fork. If one wishes to maintain NPOV in the larger project (if that is what this project really aims to do, as opposed to simply presenting their side in lieu of the current material), why can't discussion be had within the scope of the existing project, as opposed to creating a new one? I do question the motivation of a project like this. MSJapan 22:41, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
• Merge Into WikiProject Judaism as a work group or into WikiProject Countering systemic bias in religion. We don't need one for every religion. ~ Wikihermit 03:13, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete The page starts out: expanding the number of articles regarding anti-Zionist Jewish groups and individuals, and Jewish groups still present in the Arab world which may not get adequate coverage in Wikiproject:Judaism due to possible systemic bias, whether inadvertant (usual) or purposeful (sometimes happens, unfortunately)." This is a blatant statement of POV-pushing. Of course the wording can be changed, but the fact they they started out with such aggressive wording implies the unacceptable POV. (It would have been wiser to be more subtle about it--I missed the flag cue, but yes, it too is indicative.) DGG 03:58, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
• Delete - based on further information which I admit to not knowing earlier, including the inherently NPOV nature of flag included in project page and history of page's sole editor. Would like to hold open the possibility of being kept if the project is renamed, inherently perjorative material like the black flag is removed, and/or the group being taken on as a subproject of some other project. John Carter 15:31, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
• COMMENT Why not try to help the project rather than erase it. To say the project exists to correct bias is not POV pushing, it is the opposite. POV countering. The Black flag is the symbol of all kenoyim. This page illistrates the reason this project is neeeded. THere is a lack of knowledge about the subject by normal WIkipedia Judaism editors. Example: The black flag is not an exclusively Neturei Karta symbol. It is flown from Satmar synagogues too; as well as the Eidah and TOldos Aaron, Toldos Avraham YItzokh, Munkatch, Chasam SOfer, Prushim. You misunderstood the symbol. WOuldn't an article about it be worthwhile? Shia1 20:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
• Arbitration Request I request arbitration as I do not want to spill anyone's identity in violation of wikipedia policy but I know one of the administrators involved in the harrassment of me works for Aish HaTorah's Hasbarah Fellowships and is using wikipedia to that end. A parousal of the contributions of many of these people will reveal they edit soley as Israel activism. Shia1 21:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete I won't be editing wikipedia any longer due to harrassment; and yes, I knew Daniel and Rebeinu (and still know) personally. THat's how I know they were NOT the same person. They are both dutch. YOel23 who you banned as MY sockpuppet was also Dutch. Whatever. This is stupid and everyone knows you are what you are. I'm done here. I almost wrote a bunch of evil stuff on my user page, but I'm above that. I just plain quit.
• Strong delete - seems to be a WikiProject with the sole purpose of implementing a certain POV in articles. As Meshulam pointed out, this project's flag/name etc are very offensive. Delete and remind the creator of WP:NPOV and WP:CIVIL. SalaSkan 15:39, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
• Delete, the project goes right out and claim POV, for crying out loud. — Coren ^(talk) 21:23, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.