Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Hurriyya notice board

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Delete abakharev 07:00, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Wikipedia:Hurriyya notice board

As the page itself states, Iranian users already have a place to discuss page issues. As the page also states, this page isn't going to discuss article issues. This page is part of the Iranian campaign to persecute users who disagree with them. It says it is to assist users facing "racism, national bigotry, and intimidation". This is the job of the admins, and other users should not be encouraged to take administration of policy into their own hands. It also claims to be there to encourage "freedom of thought", another thing that isn't completely policy, but POV infractions should be investigated by admins, as well. Just looking at the "controversial issues" listed, it's clear that already it's being used to push points of view on certain issues (including an ongoing page deletion), (which isn't helped by the fact that the user who created this board has just been blocked for 3RR) and I can't see how it could serve any useful function that couldn't be served equally well, if not better, by the already existing Iranian User's Noticeboard. --InShaneee 04:11, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Except that the Iranian User's Noticeboard is being used to organize attacks on the people who are gathering at the Hurriyya notice board. I don't think that either activity is a good use of WP, but if you're going to call the pot black, I'll just call attention to the kettle too. Zora 06:19, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

This is not true. The Iranian noticeboard states where articles need attention, not things like "Some people have created a new ethnic group on Wikipedia which God has not created yet in reality: Iranian peoples" --Kash 12:30, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

And if it was being used for that purpose, the proper response is still to notify other users/admins, not to create a page to retaliate. --InShaneee 01:50, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

It seems that you still have not understand the exact uage of the notice board. when you nominated it it was new its wording has been reforemed totally. Xebat Talk + 15:38, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

How about this, I think it is you who does not understand what noticeboards are for. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 09:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keep I'm not sure as to what you mean, InShaneee, as you're not very clear. The purpose of al-Hurriyya, as stated on the main page, is to "give collective support to those facing racism, nationalist bigotry and group intimidation while editing articles related to Middle Eastern minority issues." Unlike the Iranian notice board, we make it clear that we will not condone edit wars, biases, and personal attacks. We discourage any mention of users that are involved in conflict; we recommended that users engage in discussions and to use notable sources before editing. The notice board is new and so far has not violated any Wikipedia policies, in fact we uphold them and wish that others would too. The same cannot be said about the Iran notice board which has been up for some time and the fact that you didn't bring it up suggests a double standard on your part. Take a look at the Iranian notice board for yourself. Here is the page as it was just a few hours ago before User:ManiF changed it (so creating Al-Hurriyya did work): http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia%3AIranian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board&diff=45969844&oldid=45968097 If any notice board should be deleted it should be the Iranian notice board. Thank you. --Inahet 07:28, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Your analogy is flawed, Iranian Wikipedians' notice board is a legitimate regional notice board and open to all editors who are knowledgeable on the various Iranian subjects and would like to participate in the maintenance of Iran-related articles and improve their encyclopedic quality and reliability. There are doezns of similiar Regional notice boards to help knowledgeable editors collaborate with each other in order to improve a specific set of articles. Simply put, anyone and everyone is welcome to contribute to the Iranian Wikipedians' notice board, the project is neutral and does not endorse the opinions and the views of individuals who participate in the project. Wikipedia:Hurriyya notice board, on the other hand, is an ideologically driven pressure group designed to push a point of view, against the wiki spirit, as Wikipedia is not a battleground. (WP:NOT) --ManiF 08:02, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

The Iranian project is not neutral and the only opinion endorsed is that of those who participate in that notice board. The participants engage in edit wars without engaging in discussions, as exemplified in the Geber article. They simply revert to the revision to that of their collaborator, and users who do have the sources to back up their claims and who do engage in the discussions like myself feel outnumbered and ignored. That is why Hurriyya was created, and so far we have not violated any rules. Inahet 08:33, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, you are making unfounded accusations/assumptions. No one is stopping you or anyone else from participating in Iranian Wikipedians' notice board, as the introduction clearly states, the project is neutral and open to all editors with an interest on Iranian subjects. --ManiF 08:53, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. "Hurriyya" (Liberty) is a slogan in Arabic and the board has the appearance of a political party or pressure group with exclusive membership and an interest in pushing POV and inflating votes, as confessed by User:Ahwaz who created this board here. The board's intro, written by User:Ahwaz who has been blocked twice in the past two weeks for racist comments [1] and 3RR [2], reads "This notice board is set up to give collective support to those facing racism, nationalist bigotry" or that ""Some people have created a new ethnic group on Wikipedia which God has not created yet in reality: Iranian peoples". As these comments suggest, the board is accusatory, inflammatory and discriminatory in nature and promotes a collective attempt to evade 3RR, and disrupt Wikipedia to make a point. Furthermore, User:Ahwaz is spamming users who are ideologically sympathetic to him, promoting his board while calling other users who disagree with him "Nazi", "fuckwit", "brainless", "goon", "thug", "racist", "extremist", "ultra-nationalist", "Persian supremacist monarchist", "nasty" and other derogatory names. [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], and [11]. --ManiF 07:34, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

What User:ManiF wrote is simply a distortion of Ahwaz's character. Ahwaz is not anti-Persian, and he strongly discourages the generalization of Persians based on the actions of a few. See his comments on his talk page. And Ahwaz didn't violate 3RR as ManiF claims, Ahwaz makes his case here [[12]]. It's really depressing to see this form of character assasination take place. And it was highly unnecessary to single out Ahwaz especially when the topic didn't ask for it. Much can be said about ManiF's record and the Iranian notice board, which was created after ManiF suggested that there should be an Iranian watchdog, but I'll refrain from making any further statements for now.

Since Ahwaz was blocked for supposedly violating the 3RR rule, he is unable to comment on this page at this time, but has posted the following statementon his talk page in response to User:ManiF's statement:

Well, I can't respond because I have been unjustly blocked for a 3RR I did not commit. The joke is that these people object to me calling someone a racist bigot when they say "Arabs were uncivilized and barbaric and made themselves satanic" [13]. If this is not racist, then I wonder what else these people will tolerate.

Hurriyya is not a political slogan in Arabic, it means freedom and is mentioned in the Qu'ran and forms an aspect of Islamic jurisprudence. All the POV pushing and vote campaigns have been run by Wikipedia:Iranian Wikipedians' notice board with the administrators full knowledge. I cannot see why editors cannot organise themselves in a similar fashion.

As for "spamming", I have never spammed anyone. I reacted once to an anti-Arab racist slur, but then thought better of it and deleted it. But I was still punished by the administrators and the clan want to punish me again! This Wikipedia is truly amazing!--Ahwaz 07:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Inahet 08:10, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I am going to ignore your baseless accusations about me. As for Ahwaz, the organizer of "al-Hurriyya", I'll let the evidence speak for his character. [14] --ManiF 08:37, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

If you have a problem with me, then I suggest you take it up in a relevant forum. If this is all about me, then have the courage to take this matter to arbitration because the constant sniping and complaining at every opportunity and following me around reverting my edits is annoying. Make an official complaint, get the backing of your friends and let's have independent adjudication on the matter. If not, then stop this campaign of your's.--Ahwaz 07:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Did you even bother to read what you linked to??? It's Ahwaz talk page and someone had posted anti-Arab comments in Farsi, and Ahwaz reacted to it, maybe not in the best way, but when provoked with racist attacks that is how one naturally reacts, but Ahwaz felt guilty about it and deleted it. Also, it is unfair to keep making statements about Ahwaz when he cannot defend himself. Also you were blocked for violating the 3RR rule 2 days ago [15] so it is not wise for you to air someone else's dirty laundry as you have exposed yourself--Inahet 08:46, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Also you accused Ahwaz of "spamming users who are ideologically sympathetic to him, promoting his board" while you have spammed users to promote the Iranian board that you call the Iranian watchdog, here are just some I found: [16] [17] [18]. You say my accusation is baseless, here is the actual statement you made:

Iranian Watchdog'

Aucaman and a few others like Heja Helweda and Diyako have been repeatedly and systematically vandalizing the Iran-related topics such as Persian people and Iranian peoples, propagating false information, maliciously editing/disputing/deleting without one shred of proof to backup their wild claims, applying the strawman falsification approach, trying to establish new 'facts" based on their own personal assumptions and beliefs.

In order to prevent this situation, we need to create an Iranian Watchdog on Wikipedia and guard the integrity and quality of all the Wikipedia articles that are related to Iran and Iranians. Please let me know if you think that's a good idea. --ManiF 13:01, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Gorbeh" [19]

I appreciate it if you didn't use my signature in your posts. Also, I have a clear conscience — I was a newbie back then, I wasn't familiar with Wikipedia:Etiquette and still I never attacked anyone personally and would never do that. I would also never stoop to using vulgar language [20] just because I disagreed with anyone’s opinion. --ManiF 09:14, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about using your signature in the post but that was because I copied your comment from the link I provided. The point is if you feel that it is wrong for anyone to hold anything against you for the past things you said then you should not do that to others like Ahwaz, who admits that the comments were wrong and has redeemed himself by rejecting generalizations of Persians.-Inahet 09:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Also I'm sure you don't want any of your present blunders to be used against you in the future so don't react harshly to others for making mistakes--Inahet 09:29, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Again, your analogy is flawed, User:Ahwaz is still labeling his ideological opponents "goons or thugs", "racists", "extremists", "ultra-nationalists", "Nazis", "Persian supremacist monarchists", "nasty crowd" and other derogatory terms. --ManiF 09:31, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Ahwaz didn't make any of those statements on the Hurriyya board, which is what we should be discussing. And don't take his comments out of context. There have been examples of racism, extremism, ultra-nationalism, and nastiness, whether you like to acknowledge it or not. And from what I know, he has been attacked by participants of the Iranian board, e.g. he had been accused of spreading anti-Persian propaganda. Why don't you condemn their personal attacks?--Inahet 09:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I provided the links for those statements. Also, I condemn all personal attacks when I see them. If you want to take this discussion further, please use my talk page, we are taking up too much space here. --ManiF 10:38, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per InShaneee. --Kraf001 08:18, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. It says it's trying to combat racism- then makes racist comments itself? This is just feeding the massive POV wars on Wikipedia. --Rory096 08:55, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

What is it and what are the racist statements? Inahet 09:05, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per InShaneee and Rory. A site to organize vote/POV-stuffing should not be in wikipedia at all. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 09:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• • Comment Please don't delete it without paying some attention to the problems that spawned it. Better yet, how about reforming it, as a notice board for indigenous peoples and minorities over the whole dang planet? If nationalists get to have the "nation" boards to organize, surely the people whose interests don't fit neatly within national boundaries should have a place too. Zora 09:07, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment I don't think that they should have noticeboards either. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 09:17, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Strong and Speedy Delete As per InShaneee and others --Kash 12:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Regional notice boards are one thing, but the concept behind this one is political and POV. There is a German-speaking notice board, so an Arabic-speaking Wikipedians' notice board might not be a bad idea. SouthernComfort 13:57, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment But it wasn't intended just for Arabic-speakers. Ahwaz said it was for Middle-Eastern minorities, only some of which speak Arabic. A couple of the people involved are Kurds, not Arabs. Zora 02:19, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Comment It's too obvious. "freedom" as name for "minority" people's watchdog! speaks for its-self in my opinion. --Kash 23:13, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Withdrawn. Delete as per InShaneee, ManiF, and others. You cannot vote

Actually, he can. Unsigned comment by User:130.161.44.115, innapropriate response by User:Xebat.

• Strong Keep and do not listen to some users POV which only God knows what are saying. Look at these edit waring and source removing on this minority article by these people who are among delete voters.

[21]

Xebat Talk + 15:36, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete This AfD in itself provides ample evidence why these advocacy noticeboards are harmful to Wikipedia. Xoloz 15:43, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per nom, SouthernComfort and Xoloz. Kindly conduct holy wars on your own websites, not on Wikipedia. Sandstein 17:27, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per ManiF and InShaneee.Shervink 21:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)shervink

• Delete per nom and due to the fact that it's sole purpose is POV pushing and intimidation. Pegasus1138^{Talk | Contribs | Email} ---- 23:56, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete as per InShaneee and Pegasus1138.--Zereshk 00:05, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep - the Iranian Wikipedia notice board has been dominated by those accusing many people of being "anti-Iranian" and has been used for vote-stuff, POV pushing and targetting individual editors. The people on that board have attacked editors for allegedly being "Zionist", "Arab separatist" and "Jews". The main target has been those writing on minorities, such as Kurds and Ahwazi Arabs. As administrators have taken no action to deal with this problem and as the problem is disruptive, the Hurriyya notice board was set up. "Hurriyya" was chosen by me as it means "freedom". It is not a religious term nor even a political one. There are those who want a place where Middle East minority-related articles can be discussed in an atmosphere without intimidation or slander. If it is deleted, then I hope the accusatory comments and POV pushing on the Iranian notice board is dealt with, along with the perpetrators.--Ahwaz 07:15, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment - It is relevant with a noticeboard concerning minorities in the ME. I find, however, some of the above mentioned concerns adequate. My support fot the notice board is conditional on its explicit incusiveness for everybody and that it sees it self as a supplement - rather than a competitor - to other noticeboards concerning the region. Bertilvidet 14:19, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep - There were some doubtful formulations in the initial proposal. After the latest edits I find the notice board sober, relevant and not POV-pushing. Please have a look again! Bertilvidet 20:09, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Yes, I agree. Great suggestion! Xebat Talk + 20:36, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, POV, attacking and per nom. --Terence Ong 14:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

• Keep, absent a clear policy prohibiting activities of this sort in project namespace. However, please consider moving to Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle Eastern minorities or some such -- this doesn't really fit the usual definition of a regional noticeboard, although it's not the only noticeboard that doesn't. -- Visviva 05:28, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. --Khoikhoi 05:29, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete --Ali doostzadeh 17:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete I'm not against notice board dedicated for minorities e.g. Wikipedia:WikiProject Middle Eastern minorities however I don't see this very notice board helping to cool down edit wars and I think all it'll do is just creating more tension. Amir85 05:59, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
• Delete: Something in wikipedia namespace that exists soley to assist pov pushing is not welcome anywhere on wikipedia. ANyone declaring me anti-kuridsh or someone else anti-arab etc should at the very least read about WP:NPA. It really is a list of enemies as far as I care to consider. --Cool Cat^Talk|@ 09:24, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: Enemies??? Could you please ellaborate that statement? Bertilvidet 11:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: It is interesting to see the same people who had gone on a "name and shame" campaign against me and others on the Iranian Wikipedians notice board (where I was described as "anti-Iranian" and condemned for "attacking" articles - ie debating the ethnic demography of Khuzestan) are now dead against a similar notice board for minorities. You don't like it when the boot is on the other foot, do you? It seems that some people want to have a monopoly on communalism. It is also interesting that no administrator has taken any action against blatant racism and racist attacks by mysterious "anons" (all with the same IP addresses) who are always there to back up the "team" and do their dirty work. I smell a big stinking rat here. Or maybe an elephant in the drawing room that no-one wants to acknowledge. If you want to see the latest outburst, try here: [22]. Or maybe look at the "lizard-eating Arabs" comments made by those who perhaps think that diet determines ethnic superiority! As for the personal accusations about my own ethnicity and origins (which Zereshk loves to make an issue although it is none of his business), it is really my word against their's. Yes, I am Arab and I have undertaken translation work here.

I would like to call upon some of the more sensible members of Wikipedia to assist with a Middle Eastern minorities board that is free of this nonsense and intimidation. Amir85, Visviva and SouthernComfort have already suggested this and I would hope that they will contribute constructively.

You will be glad to know - and I am sure ManiF will be jumping with delight after stalking and harassing me on numerous articles but too cowardly to make me a case for arbitration - that I will not be involved in Wikipedia any longer. Driving me and others off Wikipedia has been the long-term goal of the Iranian Wikipedians notice board - no matter what it now purports to say about itself. If the current nationalist campaign goes on, I would suspect that this will become more and more like the website of Anjoman-e Padishahi rather than a proper encyclopaedia. And anyone with an iota of academic integrity will be able to spot it.--Ahwaz 10:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Strong Delete This notice board was created with the purpose of “fighting” which is obviously against rules. WP is not a battle ground no matter how legitimate the fight might be. I don’t care who said what or who did what. Creating a group to fight is not acceptable in an encyclopedia. The legitimate notice boards were made to "inform" people not to fight. The purpose of fighting was clearly mentioned from the first day this “freedom” board was created. Very inappropriate. Gol 10:38, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

So, Gol, as an opponent of "fighting" are you going to be the first to deal with this obscene post [23]? I am just wondering when those here who condemn personalised hatred against editors will get off their arses and do something about this repeated harassment and provocation against minorities - which marginalised enough people to prompt people to seek the creation of a notice board dealing with minorities that was free of this bullshit. They won't take action because they are the perpetrators!--Ahwaz 10:51, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Those were comments made by users in a talk page. If they ever create a notice board with the purpose of “fighting” Arabs, or any other minority, then I will certainly disagree with that too. The notice boards are here to inform us not to organize battles. Gol 11:06, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, so the rules allow racist abuse in a talk page. That's fine. You see, I am just learning about Wikipedia, whose laws are so obtuse that they can be bent and moulded however a certain group of well-connected users want. I have learnt that anti-Arab racism is fine, but questioning the demography of Khuzestan is "anti-Iranian" - at least, that is the only conclusion I have reached through my involvement in Wikipedia. But the Hurriyya notice board evidently was not intended to fight anyone, as stated on the notice board itself. Someone put up a comment which was later removed. Don't wet your knickers about it. It certainly did not level accusations against certain users of "attacking" or "challenging" articles on the Iranian Wikipedians notice board. What are you going to do about that? Aha, I notice a lot of this has been removed from the Iranian Wikipedians notice board following the setting up of this notice board. Interesting, no?--Ahwaz 11:18, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

"Don't wet your knickers about it". Is that how you address a female editor? You need to get a grasp of WP:NPA and WP:Civil. --ManiF 11:47, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

No, it is a British saying which means "don't piss yourself getting hysterical" and applies to both genders. I don't know and I don't care about your gender.--Ahwaz 11:52, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

First of all I will try to ignore rude comments and second, don’t twist my words. I never said it is OK to leave racist comments in the talk page. What I said was that there is a difference between talk page and notice board. If people make racist comments in any page, answer them or report them. But to create a notice board for the purpose of fighting is wrong, no matter how legitimate the fight is. Notice boards are here to inform us not to organize battles. If Iranian notice board is also used for organizing battles, then report it. Don’t create another fight campaign while condemning the previous one. Gol 21:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

• Delete, let's not faciliate the creation of Wikipedia political parties. User:Zoe|^(talk) 00:51, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep. "This page is part of the Iranian campaign to persecute users who disagree with them." Nothing can be farther from truth. Most of the editors here are not even Iranians. They're part of Middle Eastern minority groups and are trying to work together to oppose some of the recent POV problems across Middle Eastern articles. Aucaman^Talk 23:17, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

• A must keep. I support the Hurriyya(freedom) notice board, although the name sounds to me alittle bit political, which this board is NO way is. Maybe changing the name to something like Hikma (wisedom) would be more appropriate. There are many notice boards in Wikipedia and I dont see why this one should be deleted. Jidan 23:34, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete and wipe out completely.  NikoSilver  ^{(T) @ (C)} 00:57, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete for all the reasons already mentioned. --Hectorian 01:14, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

• Delete Wikipedia is not the place to creat ghettos, while I do understand the reasons for creating it and understand the concerns of those that want to keep it, we can not support something that will give precedents, there are better ways to bring community attention about the issues raised, this is much, much too extrem. Besides, should there be no Wikipedia policies about this sort of things? It's clearly against the community spirit and will alienate many members... everyone should feel before anything else as Wikipedian here and not a member of some Wikipedia clan, we have already been permissible enough about related issues, this would be far too much. Fad (ix) 02:48, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
• Strong Delete- too much irrelevant material and commentary was set forth, even before the page was put up. No editor, from either side, should creat the particular notion of taking sides. That is the wrong mentality to come forth with, and try to write an encyclopedia with. Either stick to academia and working with other editors or your contributions should be dicredited here in Wiki. That goes for all editors.Zmmz 04:27, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.