Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:The Transhumanist/Virtual classroom

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Keep. I think Fang Aili has a very good idea: if there is to be a discussion on the dangers of promoting adminship as a "goal" for editors, let that discussion take place comprehensively. It is clear that a sufficient number of commenters feel this page is different from the prior "Admin School", such that targeting Transhumanist's page alone serves no useful purpose. Xoloz 18:36, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] User:The Transhumanist/Virtual classroom

See this MfD. It appears this page is circumventing that decision. Yanksox 19:02, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Delete. This appears to be another attempt to start an Admin training school that will supplant Esperanza's Admin Coaching program. Plans by the creators of this page to rename or replace Admin Coaching with this worry me. Comments like this also worry me. Firsfron of Ronchester 19:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)I'm convinced by user:The Transhumanist's comments below. The page is supposed to be used for Transhumanist's Admin Coaching and is in his userspace. He's removed his proposal to change Admin coaching, and the creation of this "Virtual Classroom" appear to be a good-faith effort to address the concerns raised during the Admin School's MFD. I'm still not sure what "advanced editing techniques" will be discussed, as the conversation seems to be mostly about what browsers to use, but I'm of course willing to assume good faith. Firsfron of Ronchester 14:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comments - we're focusing more on how we have our computers set up (with what programs and stuff), and how to use the browsers, like setting up smart keywords to search various parts of Wikipedia using Google, from Firefox's location box. And how to take advantage of Firefox's tab feature, and manage lots of them. Things like that! And that's just the external interface section. In the internal interface section we're comparing what scripts, settings, and Wikipedia-internal navigation aids we use. In the future we'll have sections on sharing Vandal fighting expertise, conflict resolution tips, fixing cut and paste moves, and a whole lot more. --The Transhumanist 07:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
• Weak keep. At least portions of the page (internal/external interfaces) are not admin-centric. At the least, a delete conclusion here should not preclude recreating the non-admin sections of the page elsewhere. --Interiot 19:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment - The general topics will far outweigh the admin-related posts very soon... --The Transhumanist 07:47, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment I would agree with you, Interiot, but the word "Admin" is mentioned at least 47 times on that page. Recreating the non-admin-centric sections probably wouldn't leave a whole lot. My opinion, as always. Firsfron of Ronchester 20:29, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment - The admin answers posted on the page are directed primarily at my admin students from the admin coaching program (and the other person who specifically asked). A general discussion page does not preclude discussion about admin-related issues, which can be posted at the Help desk as well. I fully expect the non-admin discussions to dominate the page, because I'm inviting people to speak on those issues and because I'm planning to post many more subsections for such topics. The page is only a couple days old. The Transhumanist 23:43, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Update - The admin-specific stuff is already getting dwarfed. I've updated my notes on the interfacing tools I use, and have written a translation of Interiot's post (which is in pure geekspeak) on that page. Interiot, and the translation, explain how to turn Firefox's location box into a command line, among other things, and how to apply these to using Wikipedia. It took me hours to figure out what he was talking about . --The Transhumanist 23:12, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. He satisfied the demands of the Admin School deletion discussion -- this is on his userpage, it's not official, isn't geared towards admin schooling. --Wolf530 (talk) 19:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep. Although I find the current emphasis on admin-ship as the end all, be all of wikiexistence alarming, it is in Userspace and does touch on other subjects. Jcam 20:09, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete. I can't help but think all the time that's being put into these off-the-wall new coaching schemes would be better spent writing articles. -- Steel 20:23, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per my original reasoning. Transhumanist is just trying to make this place and its editors better. I also think that this debate is a symptom of a large controversy over what some people think is an over-emphasis on gaining admin tools; if that's the case, then let's move the discussion to a more appropriate venue and let this page lie. (Smallify older comments) I'm inclined to give a lot of leeway considering it is in Transhumanist's userspace, and he's genuinely interested in helping people become better editors. It appears that the page is for him and his coachee, while inviting comments from others. I don't see a problem with an exchange of ideas, as this page seems to be. I remain open to convincing either way however. --Fang Aili ^talk 20:35, 8 November 2006 (UTC) Strike !vote until page purpose is clarified. --Fang Aili ^talk 23:22, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy keep - this is my Wikipedia:Esperanza/Admin coaching subpage. I'm coach #40 on the list of volunteers. Every admin coaching assignment has one, and they are standard operating procedure for the Admin coaching program. To delete my admin coaching subpage is to cancel my participation in the Admin coaching program and that of the two coachees who I've been assigned to teach. And since I have 2 coaching assignments, combining them onto one page was only common sense. I've also de-emphasized adminship as the focus, as per the MfD referred to above, and I've invited some of the most prolific and talented editors on Wikipedia to participate on non-admin topics. So far, Interiot, Rich Farmbrough, and CBDunkerson have been kind enough to share their expertise on user interfaces and how they apply them to Wikipedia. I hope you will do the same. See the coaching assignment box to the right to see my Esperanza coaching assignments listed on there. See also other admin coaching subpages at Wikipedia:Esperanza/Admin coaching/Coaching advice archives. --The Transhumanist 20:57, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment While you raise some good points, Transhumanist, every other admin coach has listed their coaching pages as "Admin Coaching", whereas yours is named "Virtual Classroom", which is not much different from "Admin School", which was deleted. Also, the page itself says "While this page is for communication between myself and those for whom I have been appointed to as coach by the Esperanza coaching program, anybody and everybody is welcome to join in and participate. If you are a beginner and have found this page, you are welcome to stay." That's a bit different than the one-on-one interaction found at Admin Coaching, and closely resembles the idea of the "Admin School", which was rejected by the community. Fang Aili makes an excellent point that this is in your own userspace, but it does appear to be rather similar to an idea that was just rejected days ago, with a (very) slightly revised form. Firsfron of Ronchester 21:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply - all very true, and the page isn't targetted specifically at admin training, rather it is an open venue for all advanced editor topics. Admin-related questions can be posted at the Help desk as well, and the only difference between the scope of this page and that one is that this one focuses on advanced editing issues and techniques. I've designed the page to accomodate every objection made at the "Admin school MfD", and will remove references to admin coaching from the page's design altogether if the community so desires, to de-emphasize it still further. I really enjoy reading about the techniques others use in working on Wikipedia, and I believe there are others who do as well. That is another way this page differs from the help desk, by gathering more input on each topic before moving on to the next one. This is a far different concept than that of Admin school, as its focus is on advanced skills in general. --The Transhumanist 21:25, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Question. I think you are mixing purposes with this page, Transhumanist. Is it your Esperanza admin coaching page, or a general "advanced editing" page? I think it needs to be one or the other. --Fang Aili ^talk 21:49, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Why? - I could have asked my students to post their questions on the help desk and answered them there. Their questions fall within the scope of both pages (the help desk and here), and therefore the venue is totally appropriate. The Transhumanist 22:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Response. Then I don't see why you are saying you'll remove all references to admin coaching--either it's an admin coaching page or it's not. I think the controversy here is what you're trying to accomplish with this page. Some people are concerned that you're trying to somehow supplant Esperanza's admin coaching program--which I don't think you're trying to do--but it doesn't help that this page doesn't have a clear purpose. --Fang Aili ^talk 22:19, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

Reply to response - I stated why: "if that's what the community wants". I'm a solid supporter of the Admin coaching program, and I'm even a coach. The initial reason I started a forum page (it was called "Admin school") was to help alleviate the bottleneck at Admin coaching. The two pages supplement each other very well. The only reason I suggested the name change of the Admin coaching page was to remove it as a target for deletion because of the attitude that seems to predominate in the community against admin training and even against aiming for adminship. Many think preparing for adminship should be entirely organic (natural, personal, informal, and spontaneous). Removing the word "admin" could improve its acceptance in the community. But I'm fine with the name either way. Esperanza has been taking a lot of hits lately, such as the game section MfD, and I don't want to see that continue. With the name change proposal, I'm just doing my best to support Esperanza. This page has nothing to do with the Admin coaching page's name change proposal at all. The Transhumanist 23:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

• Strong keep - For reasons of which The Transhumanist has stated. X [Mac Davis] (DESK|How's my driving?) 21:20, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete - When members of Esperanza are against it, you know it's bad. Besides, in my opinion, this is a horrible thing: let's teach people how to game the system to get the mop. The fact remains that no matter WHAT it's named, the result and product is the same.Also, per Fang Aili and Firs. --Shrieking Harpy ^Talk|Count 06:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - The Transhumanist is spending a significant amount of time trying to make us better editors and introducing us to new ideas. This helps Wikipedia. Rename the page or add a caveat, but don't delete it. This would not help Wikipedia. Budgiekiller 06:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep it's no longer in the Wikipedia namespace and we don't have all those links to it anymore, so a lot of the previous concerns are not an issue. I'm still not sure if the idea will go anywhere, but I don't think deleting this is necessary. -- Ned Scott 06:53, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep per other keeps, also, WTF? †he Bread 07:08, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
  • No offense, but "WTF?" doesn't add anything to this discussion. Yanksox 12:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, so long as the principles of the previous MfD are noted (which they appeared to be).--cj | talk 17:23, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - content and emphasis and location has changed sufficiently to make this different from the previous case. Carcharoth 18:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Delete per Elaragirl (Shrieking Harpy). This is too close to the page that was just deleted, and deleted for good reason I might add. —Doug Bell ^{talk•contrib} 20:44, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
• Keep for one very good reason. WP:AGF. Rich Farmbrough, 11:35 11 November 2006 (GMT).

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.