Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/User:SteveSims/Userboxes/Pimp

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the miscellany page below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was Userbox deleted. WP:NOT Myspace, any userboxes should be used in a manner that does not disparage others. Some might take offense to the "pimp" box, and as discussion shows several users did. While Wikipedia is not censored, content which does not enhance the creation of an encyclopedia has less weight against content which does. As such in the interests of harmony among users this box has been deleted.  ALKIVAR™ ☢ 20:19, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] User:SteveSims/Userboxes/Pimp

This userbox doesn't follow good taste and pimping is usually considered a crime. Rhanyeia 13:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

This userbox links to Pimp#Other_uses. These uses aren't considered poor taste and are not crimes. SteveSims 18:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the linking was changed in the middle of this conversation, but I'm not convinced it's enough. Native English speakers who think they know the meaning of the word do not go to the links to find out the meaning. And I have checked several dictionaries and none of them give the meaning you intend. That is a spoken slang meaning of a restricted area. Besides, offensive words carry emotional meanings which can't be changed by saying that there is some different slang meaning if that's not widely known. Best regards Rhanyeia 19:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Ignorance (and failure to learn when given the opportunity) is not justification for censorship, even on a private website that allows fun userboxes.
A lot of old-time users spend a lot of time improving their userpages, and personalizing them. This hobby helps keep them interested in improving Wikipedia. Fun userboxes are a part of this.
Vernacular, laymen's definitions are usually not in dictionaries. The definition I seek (i.e., not one who works for prostitutes by finding customers for them, as Meriam-Webster states) is not the one considered offensive. If anything, the dictionary's definition is offensive to men because it's about men who work for prostitutes, people generally not viewed favorably. SteveSims 00:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think your comment about censorship is misplaced because userboxes are not encyclopedia articles and they are supposed to be restricted according to the relevant guidelines. I don't think it can be expected to know a spoken slang meaning of some area. Best regards Rhanyeia 07:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Also User:SteveSims/Userboxes/Pimped. Best regards Rhanyeia 13:40, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Note This same issue was addressed with Template:User pimp in 2006. Also see User:EllEffer.-- Jreferee (Talk) 06:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Note to closer - This discussion was closed for four hours, so a close on or after 17:32, 11 September 2007 would be considered at least five days after the 13:32, 6 September 2007 posting of this MfD request.. -- Jreferee (Talk) 22:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete. Very tasteless. Although policy mandates that Wikipedia is not censored, the idea behind the policy is that we do not censor encyclopedic and valid content from articles (or their associated images and templates) on the grounds that it is indecent. This is part of our mission to build a neutral and balanced encyclopedia. Userboxes, on the other hand, are not part of the encyclopedia, and are for users' own amusement; as such, they should seek to avoid needlessly offending people, and should certainly not promote a practice which is a criminal offence in many countries. WaltonOne 17:15, 6 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep. Deleting User:SteveSims/Userboxes/Pimp will delete my entire userpage (I'm guessing it's a flaw in the Wikipedia programming). See my user page User:SteveSims and look in my userbox box and you will see that it says "User:SteveSims has been proposed for deletion..." Plus, it's on my personal userspace. My userpage, though hosted on Wikimedia, does not have to be encyclopedic content. However, if it were Userboxes/Pimp deletion would be merited since it's unencyclopedic content. If people are offended they are free to not go onto my userspace (all pages with the pimp userbox are listed on the pimp hat image's page) and are free to not use my userbox. SteveSims 06:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    Your whole user page is not proposed for deletion. Please also read the instructions on Wikipedia:Userboxes#Designing a userbox. Thank you. :) Best regards Rhanyeia 07:58, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    Don't worry, deleting the pimp userbox won't delete your whole userpage. The reason the deletion message comes up on your main userpage is because the userbox is transcluded on to your page, so the deletion notification automatically appears as well. If you don't want the deletion message there, you can substitute the userbox for the time being. WaltonOne 17:25, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    My pimp userbox is not blatantly uncivil nor is it a personal attack. It isn't divisive either, even though it's caused this debate we're just as unified in improving Wikipedia as we were before it began. So, it's caused disagreement, but has not divided us. It also clearly isn't propaganda, advocacy, etc., but no one's arguing that. Therefore, it does not meet any of the guidelines for content restriction as per Wikipedia:Userboxes#Content_restrictions. SteveSims 00:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep IDONTLIKEIT is not an good argument. Good taste is HIGHLY debatable. I doubt that the user(s) who display this box are actually pimps, but rather use it humorously. Wikipedia is not Censored. If this were templatespace, I'd say migrate it, but as this is userspace let's avoid unnecessary wikidrama and let people keep their box. 84.145.241.239 10:09, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete both; these userboxes border on trolling. Put such a declaration on your personal website if you feel the need. - Mike Rosoft 14:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
    The userboxes don't bait anyone (see trolling). SteveSims 00:13, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Patently offensive is obviously to some degree a matter of opinion. I think this qualifies. Enough other people seem to also that I think it would not be a good idea to use the box. Obviously WPedians are not actually required to have good sense, but the user page is very visible. DGG (talk) 21:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete agreeing with Walton One. Acalamari 22:10, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Don't Delete I have it myself, and I'm not actually a pimp. It's simply a userbox to add to my page for a laugh, and I find it offensive that just because some people don't like it (I agree with the anonymous user about IDONTLIKEIT), doesn't mean they have a right to have it taken off other users' pages, which they have no right to invade according to Wikipedia's rules, unless something actually illegal is taking place on there (and this is obviously not). Besides, the Pimp box might offend you, but what about boxes for other stuff? Sexual Orientation? Occupation? Nationality? Political Opinions? And those are all serious subjects, whereas most likely 99% of the time, the Pimp box is simple humorous. Bottom line, if you delete this one (which you would have no right to do so under the circumstances), then you'd would have to delete all of the other user boxes to be fair, and I don't think we want that. That's my piece. Jay 02:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    Comment and Question Precisely how do you equate sexual orientation with pimp? Please tell me precisely how sexual orientation is the equivalent of profiteering off of the sale of access to another human being's body? It's not. KP Botany 02:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    Comment and Response Example: Hardline Catholics have a strong view on Homosexuality. The number of catholic hardliners might be low here, but I'm pretty sure that you will find one wikipedian who will assure you that Homosexuals will "burn in hell as god hates them" and a box saying "this user is gay/homosexual" not only violates HIS sacred degrees, but actually (in some odd way) encouraged more people to become homosexuals (and thus eternally damned). Please tell me precisely how profiteering off of the sale of access to another human being's body is the equivalent of spending one's entire afterlife in pain, torment and damnation in the deepest circles of hell? It's not. 84.145.225.125 01:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete Pure misogynistic bullshit. KP Botany 02:40, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment This user box is "intentionally inflammatory (against women) AND divisive, intending to show gross, hostile and vicious disrespect for women as human beings with the right to own their own bodies." KP Botany 02:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    The point I was making was, it's NOT about that! "Pimp" isn't a dirty word, it's not even exclusively related to the sale of sex anymore. Jay 03:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    I've already done that argument. Steve has not attached his userbox to Pimp My Ride, he's attached it to Pimp in the ordinary sexual seller of access to women's body for profit meaning of the word. It's not about guana, either. So, why didn't you pick guana as what it's not about rather than Sexual orientation? If Steve meant it in a neutral way he could have attached it to a neutral meaning. But he chose not to. I also choose not to attach it to anything he didn't attach it to. I'll let Steve and his user box speak for himself and itself. KP Botany 03:19, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    I don't know why you're still on about the sexual orientation thing, that was purely an example as to other things that might be offense to some people. Besides, who says it needs to be linked up to anything? It's linked up tp 'pimp', because that's kinda the main word in the box... As for Pimp My Ride, that's not the only other use for the word. I think the main article for 'pimp' should contain more of it's uses then it does, so arguements like this need not be hashed out over the exact definition of what's intended to be the meaning of the word. And just for the record, no, I don't support the illegal business of pimping, again, it's a humorous box that should be left alone... Jay 03:48, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    I just re-directed the link to 'Other uses', is that satisfactory to you, and Steve? Jay 03:51, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    No, it's not satisfactory. Steve designed the box to mean pimp in this way, "A pimp finds and manages clients for prostitutes and engages them in prostitution (in brothels in most cases and some cases street prostitution) in order to profit from their earnings." I'm glad you find that funny, but I don't have a sense of humour about profiteering from the bodies of other human beings. KP Botany 03:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    Number 1, that's not what I find funny. Number 2, considering the way you feel about it, you shouldn't be glad I find that part of it funny, or you're being a hypocrite. Number 3, Where did Steve say that's what he was trying to do? And last, I know what prostitution is thank you very much, hence the discussion here... You seem to be causing more trouble arguing against an innocent joke, and not even understanding what I'm talking about. I DO NO ADVOCATE PROSTITUTION, as you seem seem to think. If I met a pimp in real life, I'd probably break his face, because I know in detail how the business works, and that's not even supposed to be part of this discussion. Steve has clearly stated he isn't promoting/advocating prostitution, nor do I for that matter, and if you're interpeting it that way, then frankly this entire debate is your fault, along with whoever put this up for deletion, for saying it means something it doesn't. Jay 05:23, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • It is clear with what meaning the userbox was designed for, it was linked there and there was the other userbox "pimped" too. It's the most common way of using the word and from several dictionaries I found only that meaning, except one other definition "a despicable person" (from Random House Webster's College Dictionary, according to the same dictionary "despicable" means "deserving to be despised"). If you want to say "this user is cool" then say it with using "cool" please. We are trying to build an encyclopedia in a multicultural environment with a very different editors, and jokes get sometimes misunderstood even in a living room. Try to imagine that you walk into different meetings (for example a meeting with all your relatives there and a meeting at a job) with a "I'm a pimp" tag on your chest. Would everyone understand your joke? Best regards Rhanyeia 08:01, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm sure there are many userboxes that you wouldn't want pinned to your chest when walking into a business meeting. That's doesn't mean we delete them. The argument above is by someone who is unwilling to accept that the word has a vernacular use that hasn't necessarily made it into dictionaries yet. "If you want to say 'this user is cool' then say it with using 'cool' please. We are trying to build an encyclopedia in a multicultural environment with a very different editors, and jokes get sometimes misunderstood even in a living room." -- This is basically WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Rhanyei, you also need to realize the same thing, that this is a multicultural environment, and the word you're so against means something very different in other cultures. There does still need to some change to the box though. Perhaps if the word "pimp" were linked to a still-different article, like "cool"? Maybe that would alleviate some of this tension. 14:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • It's not "I don't like it", it's that it causes real tensions. Before this deletion conversation started it was clear that the userbox was used in that particular meaning. It doesn't help to link "pimp" to "cool" if dictionaries still give "pimp" that one meaning, it would be even worse. When I don't know a meaning of the word I check it from the dictionary. If there is some spoken slang somewhere those who don't live there can't know about. Best regards Rhanyeia 15:28, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep but reword. I understand this guy's frustration. KP Botany and some other users seem not to be in touch with the vast melting pot of cultures in the current English-speaking world. Move here to New York City, and you'll soon find yourself getting more offended by spaghetti sauce than by the word "pimp". I think the original argument, that the word was linked to the offensive definition, may have been valid, but now that it's linked to the disambiguation page, there's no issue. The word "pimp" simply means "cool", "player", or "successful", when applied to a person; "tricked-out", when applied to an automobile; "expensive", when applied to... almost anything; And that's just for starters. I'm a whitebred Jewish kid from Queens, and even I know this stuff, merely from exposure to all the various cultures in this city. Please keep an open mind and don't let your preconceptions dictate your decisions. A small change of wording is in order though. "This user is a pimp," with the included image, does send the wrong message. Maybe if you changed it to "This user is pimpin'" or something along those lines, it would be recognized more as referring to the alternate definitions. 05:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment If you have to personally attack me and insult me in order to try to keep this user box then it IS divisive. "KP Botany and some other users seem not to be in touch with the vast melting pot of cultures in the current English-speaking world.... Please keep an open mind and don't let your preconceptions dictate your decisions." Please read WP:NPA before you decide you can read my mind and upbringing. KP Botany 16:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
      • I'm sorry if you took that as an insult but I didn't mean it that way at all. I was only suggesting that there might be a legitimate reason that you find the word offensive. That's all. 16:14, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
        • If you keep it about the content instead of trying to making guesses about me this issue wouldn't arise. Because it is about the content, not about me, and I've already been insulted damn well enough by people trying to advocate pimping on Wikipedia. So, don't make suggestions about me. KP Botany 16:20, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • The following is a pimp my userpage templated User:Lord Matt/UserBoxes/pimp my userpage
    It seems to depend on the context. However, there is User:SupaSoldier/Pimp My Page and the U.S. TV show Pimp My Ride. -- Jreferee (Talk) 06:03, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - Should we force User:Madris to remove his user page statement "My current occupation is a pimp and a playa." User:Cooliomcpimp has a This user is obsessed with being a "pimp" user box. For perspective, see User:Analogdemon (userboxes that include "This user loves pussy.", "This user loves for a woman to suck his cock.", "This user loves tits." "This user came on Eileen." -- Jreferee (Talk) 06:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep - Given the multiple meanings of pimp, including its use by Wikipedians,[1] I don't think this userbox is intentionally inflammatory or divisive. Wikipedia:Userboxes#Content_restrictions states "If content is not appropriate on a user page, it is not appropriate within userboxes." I do not think that consensus would say that User:Madris needs to remove from his user page the statement "My current occupation is a pimp and a playa." So it does not seem inappropriate within a userbox. -- Jreferee (Talk) 06:26, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    • Comment User Madris is joking. User:Analogdemon is using satire. But rather nice quoting out of context on your part. What you think does not matter so much as the fact that this discussion can't seem to take place without my being insulted and demeaned. When that is the case we've established the divisiveness of the user box. How many days do I have to go through being insulted and denigrated for Steve's right to keep and use this user box? When will it be enough? Can I build an insult tally on my user page? That's enough. KP Botany 16:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm joking too. I also am not a pimp. SteveSims 18:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you could tell me what is funny about pimping, then? Is it the stereotype that is funny, that men dress like polyester peacocks from the money they get from allowing others to abuse the bodies of, often, minors? Is it funny that minors without recourse to medical care are given venereal diseases by adults paying other adults for access to their bodies? Is it funny when women in India are burned alive by their pimps? Is it funny when children in Southeast Asia are sold to pimps for sexual tourism? Maybe if you could explain what is funny about these pimping situations I could share the joke with you. Pimping is, in its essence, sexual slavery. Maybe there is something funny about someone earning their living by destroying the future sexuality of another human being that I've missed. KP Botany 19:16, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
You already said those other people were joking, so what does it matter what's "funny about pimping"? In this case you need to tell us the difference between this instance and the others. And just because you don't find it funny doesn't make it unfunny.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
19:41, September 9, 2007
    • The other users made clear their intentions, even when quoted out of context deliberately to make it appear otherwise their meaning came through. I didn't find the satirical page funny, although it was rather well done, the satire that is--I found it disgusting, but it wasn't degrading to me--and pimping is degrading and dehumanizing to the human beings who are victims of it. Even now Steve changed this MfD to make it something else, without properly noting this above, that he had now changed it. This was also the case with User:ChicagoPimp who came out claiming it was a joke, it meant something else, all the while with his smug little, "Gotta keep the pimp hand strong always" on his user page--and I learned well enough not to bother asking people to change their declarations of pimphood, having gotten viciously attacked for it once, with some of his defenders still jumping in as recently as last week to attack me on other issues, like what is happening here.
    • Steve attached this to the article on pimp when he created it. He had options, he chose not to use them. The one user is clearly joking, the other is satirizing user boxes, clearly, and in a disgusting way, but not in a way degrading to other human beings. That this cannot be discussed civily without insulting me, calling me culturally clueless and all sorts of other crap simply stamps precisely how divisive it is. User Moe disagreed with me on the MfD for User:Analogdemon's user page, but he didn't insult me--and I didn't find anything funny about his page. Here I'm told I'm "invading" others' user pages, that I'm a hypocrite, out of touch, blah blah blah. If you can't defend it without insulting me or taking me down, then it's defenseless and should go. KP Botany 23:27, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
    Userboxes are "more common" than a user page, they get picked by others which doesn't usually happen for a text on a user page. Best regards Rhanyeia 08:07, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    User:Madris's user page is very different, the sentence is not a statement. Best regards Rhanyeia 08:17, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
    Dear Rhanyeia, I'm offended by fantasy. It clearly seduces our children to become magic-wielding satanists. I'll start a MfD to get your userpage deleted. (Just kidding, this post brought to you by WP:POINT) 84.145.225.125 11:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
    • You're right, but please, making attacks like this does not help us prevent the userbox from being deleted.
      • To Rhanyeia: The user didn't predict this MfD, or else I'm sure he would've been more careful about his linkage. He just stuck brackets around the main word in the box, like everyone does. Regardless, his original intention is not what this discussion is about. Editors are free to change the material under discussion, which he was willing to do and did. Now the link is changed, and that's what we're discussing. Material needs to be judged on its own merits. Don't try to read his mind.
      • To KP: "I didn't find [this] offensive...yet I did find [that] offensive" are really not great arguments, and that's all you're saying. You're saying you found one application of the word offensive and not the others. You say things like people were being smug... this is not proof of anything, it's not even an argument. It's just stating how you feel, again. You basically don't like it. That's what it comes down to. I understand your concerns and I sympathize with your feelings, but your feellings are just not a reason to delete something.
        Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
        06:55, September 10, 2007
        • No, I gave reasons, specific reasons the others were offensive but not degrading to other human beings, or could be taken as a joke. You've chosen to not listen to or acknowledge anything I say. This does not surprise me. You don't know my feelings, because you've chosen to ignore what I say, and not listening to me is a dead end street that doesn't go anywhere near my feelings--stop making it about them. And, if you're going to quote me, link to the diff that shows you're accurately quoting me, or don't quote me. But again, everyone has to assign feelings, and intellectual capacities to me, and now you're putting words in my mouth. I'm not surprised--because this is what is necessary to keep a divisive user box, because simple straight-forward arguments supporting the user box won't work. Therefore, attack anyone who sees how divisive it is. That's enough. Quote me, or don't say I said something. And get off of my feelings. KP Botany 00:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
    To say that something is a joke does not help if you keep telling the joke also after someone brought out it's offensive. That can sound: "I care about co-operating with only those people who can find this matter funny." And getting very close to: "I don't care about co-operating with those (female) editors who find this offensive." If that's the actual message the userbox may send it doesn't help if there are other intentions because the intentions are not visible in the userbox. It's nothing but a joke, it uses an offensive word which can be found from dictionaries with that meaning, it can cause a lot of similar misunderstandings in the future. Those who come from districts where the word is not offensive may accidentally pick it on their user pages and not even know that they are offending someone else. I think Wikipedia would be much better off without such userbox. Best regards Rhanyeia 07:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, the userbox has a LOT of potential for offensiveness (I myself am quite pissed off by it) and it provides no useful or meaningful information... i.e. no upsides, only downsides. So delete it, it's not that necessary that you have it on your page and it makes you look like an asshole to quite a lot of people. 86.137.123.74 15:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep You whiny americans don't have any rights on what I put on my userpage. If you think it's offensive then just don't look at it. Like another dumbass who deleted my " I hate english-canadians", it's my opinion and MY user page, nobody has a right over it. STFU and leave it alone. FreshBulletTime 15:46, 9 September 2007 (Eastern Time)
    • If you want to express your hatred of English-Canadians or hobby of prostituting women (however facetious both may be), you are free to create your own website (there are many free hosting services), blog, or even your own wiki. Wikipedia has a policy of restricting personal ownership of its content, in part a natural consequence of having a license that does the same. Again, you're free to do whatever you want on the web, and while Congress shall not pass a law abridging the freedom of speech, Wikipedia can, mostly for internal sanity. GracenotesT § 01:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep: I usually like to give a wide latitude when it comes to userpages. After all, I'm sure that anyone can find anything offensive. If we were to ban everything that could possibly be considered by someone to be offending, it seems we might as well just redirect all userpages to talk pages. :P Anyway, yes, keep this. .V. [Talk|Email] 11:54, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • I think you are exaggerating, this conversation is about one userbox. Best regards Rhanyeia 19:44, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
    Indeed it is about one userbox. However, I don't believe the user box to be especially or patently offending, so I don't believe it should be speedied. My point is, many userboxes are a gray area and anyone can theoretically be offended by anything (especially political topics.) I personally like to give a wide latitude because of this fact. I'd feel bad if I were to apply the same rule differently in different cases. .V. [Talk|Email] 22:59, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion was closed early because the userpages were speedy deleted under WP:CSD#T1. This discussion was closed at the time, with this comment: <quote> The result of the debate was Speedy Delete, CSD T1. ^demon[omg plz] 13:18, 10 September 2007 (UTC) </quote> That was taken to DRV, resulting in a speedy close to allow this discussion to complete, as T1 obviously does not apply outside the template namespace per its text "This applies only to pages in the Template: namespace, although outside this namespace, other criteria, such as general criterion 10, may still apply; see Wikipedia:Userbox migration for further discussion." GRBerry 17:04, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

  • suggestion that the userbox be deleted by the creator as a courtesy to other WPedians, and to avoid continuation of this increasingly unpleasant debate. DGG (talk) 19:07, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
    Although I believe this MfD should lead to keeping the userbox (see my post above), I too agree that SteveSims should voluntarily delete the userbox as a courtesy to other Wikipedians who may find the box offensive. -- Jreferee (Talk) 22:01, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Delete, fatuous, sophomoric and simply unhelpful. Guy (Help!) 20:45, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keep Offending people is not a reason to delete material, regardless of how peurile it may be.ALR 15:30, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • When I talk about offensiveness in this context I don't mean "someone feels bad" but that some groups of people are derogated, which I don't think is civil. Best regards Rhanyeia 16:04, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Why it shouldn't be deleted:

1) The Wikipedia policy used to justify speedy deletion only applies to the template namespace. 2) It is not divisive, neither blatantly nor subtly. It does not attack any group, individual, etc. The|only people whose feelings are hurt are those in the discussion, not people adversely affected by pimping (i.e., street prostitutes, the poor, etc.). (In youth sports, the only people whose feelings are hurt by the slaughter rule are the parents). 3) Deletion proponents came to the userbox; it was never posted on their userpages

I was going to remove it from the listing on the userbox page (removing it from all non-userspace wouldn't be a sin), but I have a life so I didn't get around to it until today.

  1. It's not being speedy deleted. This is a regular deletion discussion, not a speedy.
  2. It is divisive. And everyone can just cut out talking about my "feelings," as not a single one of you has come even close to my feelings. This is about the user box, not about me. If you can't defend it without making it about me, it is divisive.
  3. The user box exists and is offered--it's too late to undo it. KP Botany 00:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Prove that it should be deleted. Then we will prove to you why it shouln't be. SteveSims 01:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Prove that you know my feelings. But first, stop attacking me personally. KP Botany 01:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Enough

I'm done with this. Those who think this should be a user box can't get away from my feelings and offer any concrete support for this user box. I'm done being personally attacked in support of a pimp user box. Acting divisively and attacking those against you in support of something you claim isn't divisive only proves the opposite of what you want. KP Botany 01:12, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

KP, there's a reason everyone's saying the same thing to you. People get offended by all kinds of things, but we can't just delete things become someone says they're offended. If we did that I don't think we'd have very much left afterwards. I also don't see anyone personally attacking you. I would like to reiterate my original remark though, that the box does need to be reworded somehow -- "This user is a pimp" really is pushing it.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
01:14, September 11, 2007

::Yeah, but it's too bad not a single one of you has bothered to listen to me--which is what shit like this does, it denegrates human beings and makes it acceptable to treat others as if they aren't. I am far more offended by the piece of shit user page that User:Analogdemon has than by this user box--if I'm offended by anything. But User:Analogdemon's user page does NOT denegrate human beings nor celebrate the abuse of other human beings. Stop assigning feelings and motives to me, instead of discussing the user box. Just stop it--as long as you continue to assign motives and feelings to me, discuss my cutlural literacy, discuss everything but the user box, you've proven that this is divisive. Discuss the issue, not the editor. The user box is divisive and denegrates human beings--the lot of you have thoroughly proved it, and it's disgusting that I have to put up with this shit from you. I'm NOT the subject of this MfD, the user box is. KP Botany 01:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

No one's mentioned anything about culture in a while. I haven't assigned any feelings to you. I just said you were offended, which is what you said too. I'm not reading your mind, I'm just going by what you're saying. I don't understand what you're telling us to stop doing, but whatever it is, I will attempt to stop doing it.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
01:51, September 11, 2007
That's right you said I was offended, I didn't. Discuss the user box, not me--as I said earlier, as I seem to have to keep repeating. KP Botany 02:01, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Will do.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
02:08, September 11, 2007

Banning everything that offends you degrades human beings more than any userbox. SteveSims 07:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Equazcion, please don't say someone that "everyone's saying the same thing to you” because that isn't true. I talked about people getting offended and I don't agree with this sentence of yours: "People get offended by all kinds of things, but we can't just delete things become someone says they're offended." There are things which way cross the line and hinder communication between editors. I think this userbox crosses the line. An argument "if we did that I don't think we'd have very much left afterwards” isn't working, no one is suggesting to delete everything. Could you try to bring your suggestions about rewording the userbox to help this conversation to move on somewhere. Thank you. :) Best regards Rhanyeia 07:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't suggesting that we were arguing over deletion of anything but this one box. I was making a point. The result of a discussion like this sets a precedent of sorts. People bring up past MfD results in other MfDs. If we choose to delete this box simply because it offended someone, that makes it easier for others to come forward with other things that they claim to be offended by, asking that they be deleted; and next time, it could be something that doesn't offend you in the least, and you'll find yourself asking what the big deal is. It may even be something you like and want to keep -- but because it offended someone, there's now a good chance it could actually get deleted.
Furthermore, I don't see how this userbox on someone's user page "hinders communication" at all. If you don't like it then don't look at his userpage. How many people even use this box? Five? Seven? Out of the millions of users with millions of user pages, how do these few people affect you? What's stopping you from taking these peoples' pages out of your watch list and going about your business as you always have?
In terms of rewording, I think anything would be better in place of the simple sentence that's currently there. Perhaps if the image were changed that would make a big difference too -- portray wealth instead of something actual pimps are known to stereotypically wear. Like even a picture of a nice car would detract from the "I sell women" connotation.
Equazcion (Talk • Contribs)
11:59, September 11, 2007
The userbox steps on an area where human rights are violated, and that's more than most userboxes get to. Because of that it could offend many, and even when it doesn't it still hinders communication because it can create unnecessary prejudice towards an editor who is using it. When we communicate here we don't see anything else but what's on the screen. It's so difficult to get even this userbox deleted that I don't think there is much to worry that a lot of things get deleted if this does. Best regards Rhanyeia 14:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Human rights are not violated by what the box links to (e.g. other uses for the word pimp.) .V. [Talk|Email] 00:33, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Which is not the meaning most people who see the box will think, and as Equazcion also pointed out the image associates to the usual meaning. Best regards Rhanyeia 07:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Pimp it up (Keep but reword maybe) - Per whoever said this above. There is nothing wrong with thinking you're a pimp (is there?), so why not have the boxen? If you don't like the wording, {{sofixit}}. Dihydrogen Monoxide (H2O) 23:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Comment - The contentious nature of this MfD has, in fact, proved the point that this userbox is unnecessarily divisive, and offensive to many users. Yes, I know that Wikipedia is not censored, and as I said earlier, we don't delete encyclopedic content because it might offend someone. However, as userspace content is not part of the encyclopedia and exists solely to support the community, we should be prepared to delete userspace content that is widely seen as offensive and inflammatory; it does no good for the encyclopedia, and creates divisions in the community, as seen here. This is why I stand by my Delete !vote on this box. Even if the intended meaning is nothing to do with the actual occupation of being a pimp, the perception is sufficiently inflammatory to merit deleting the userbox, IMO. WaltonOne 14:20, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the page's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.