Talk:Mirza Tahir Ahmad
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[edit] Prayer Duels
Mubahila with Zia ul Haq, 1988
The infamous anti-ahmadiyya Ordinance XX was passed by the regime of the then dictator of Pakistan, Gen. Mohammad Zia ul Haq, in 1984. As a result Mirza Tahir Ahmed had to leave Pakistan and establish a new base for the activities of the community in London, UK. Meanwhile the persecution of the ahmadies in Pakistan continued. On 10th June 1988 Mirza Tahir Ahmed issued a challenge of Mubahila to Zia ul Haq and the anti-ahmadiyya leaders of Pakistan. In this prayer-duell wrath of God was requested to fall upon the liar within a period of one year. Zia ul Haq did not respond to this challenge. Mirza Tahir Ahmed then said, that if Zia ul Haq would stop persecuting ahmadies, this act of his would be considered an act of fear and he would escape the wrath of God. However, if he continued to persecute ahmadies, his persecution would be seen as acceptance of the challenge. A few days later many ahmadies were arrested for distributing the leaflet with the challenge. Mirza Tahir Ahmed then declared that as Zia ul Haq had not refrained from his anti-ahmadiyya acts, he will not escape the wrath of God. On 17. August 1988, Zia ul Haq was returning from Bahawalpur, Pakistan to Islamabad after an inspection of the new military hardware to be given by the USA. He was accompanied by the top brass of Pakistan's military and by the then ambassador of the USA to Pakistan Arnold Raphel. Suddenly, his plane went missing from the radar screens. A through investigation into the matter was launched by Pakistan authorities and the USA. To-date the results of the investigations have not established any cause for the destruction of the plane and its passengers. The ahamdies see this as a sign of truth of Mirza Tahir Ahmed and the movement and the fulfillment of the mubahila.
Mubahila with Ilyas Suttar, 1999
The second challenge of Mubahila was actually not given by Mirza Tahir Ahmed, it was rather given by Ilyas Suttar of Pakistan and was accepted by Mirza Tahir Ahmed in 1999. On 3rd June 1999, a meeting took place between Ilyas Suttar and two ahmadiyya missionaries in Karachi, Pakistan in which Ilyas Suttar gave this challenge. The time of Mubahila was set from 3rd June, 1999 to 3rd June 2000. Mirza Tahir Ahmed announced in his speech at the annual ahmadiyya convention in UK on 30th July 1999 that he had accepted the challenge. On 20th August 1999 the acceptance of the challenge was announced by Alfazl International, ahmadiyya organ published from London. A few weeks after the convention Mirza Tahir Ahmad became ill and could not deliver the regular friday sermons and lead the daily prayers for some time. On 10th September 1999 he announced in his first Friday sermon after the recovery from the illness that he was exhausted due to the work at the annual convention (Alfazl International 13th September 1999). The illness after the announcement of Mubahila was considered wrath of God by Ilyas Suttar and proclaimed as a sign of victory in the Mubahila by him ( http://www.can-you-answer.com/magAnnMoba.htm ) especially in view of the fact that nothing had happened to him upto 3rd June 2000.
All ahmadiyya biographies of Mirza Tahir Ahmad, including the one on the official homepge of the community, mention the prayer duel with zia ul haq. It it not clear why they choose to ignore the prayer duel with ilyas suttar, which was clearly mentioned by Mirza Tahir Himself, and by the offcial organs of the community.
Mr. SK, I do not see why you are constantly deleting the mubahila events from the life history of Mirza Tahir Ahmad. These are very important events in his life history and thus a part of his biography. They are published in all official biographies and organs of the community. There is no religious discussion or violation of any policy in this. If you keep on deleting these paragraphs, you may be reportet to the organizers for vandalism!
You are welcome to report my "vandalism" any time. I am sure you will be able to explain to the organizers what Mubahila is. Mubahila is a religious event, observable only by those who understand the concept and believe in it. As an Ahmadi, I believe that Zia died due to Mubahila, but this is a matter of my personal faith. I will not mention this in a biography article intended for general knowledge. As an Ahmadi, I believe that ilyas Sattar never challenged for a Mubahila of life and death or illness or health. That mubahila was regarding a question he has asked and he was answered an humiliated long time ago. But this is a matter of yours and mine interpretations. SK 09:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Initiation Ceremony
One of the main features during his time is the number of new converts to Ahmadiyya community. In 1993 Mirza Tahir Ahmad started a program of conversions to the Ahmadiyya jamaat which was called 'International Bai'at'. The members of the community were asked to double their efforts to bring double the number of new converts to this initiation ceremony each year. The number of new converts are announced by the head of the community (Khalifa) each year at the occasion of Jalsa Salana in the UK at the end of July. This practice continues to this date. According to the official figures presented by the community the number of converts from 1993 to 2007 was over 166.8 million. This number is highly contested by the opponents of the community. The year by year count of converts as officialy given by the Jamaat are as follows
Year Number of Converts Reference 2007 261,969 Daily Alfazl, Pakistan, 1. Aug. 2007 2006 293,881 Daily Alfazl, Pakistan, 2. Aug. 2006 2005 209,799 Daily Alfazl, Pakistan, 3. Aug. 2005, same source for all preceding years 2004 304,910 2003 892,403 2002 20,654,000 2001 81,006,721 2000 41,308,975 1999 10,820,226 1998 5,004,591 1997 3,004,585 1996 1,602,721 1995 847,725 1994 421,753 1993 204,308 Total 166,838,567
International initiation is an official event among the ahmadiyya. As it was initiated by Mirza Tahir Ahmad, it must be mentioned in his biography.
[edit] Self Imposed Exile
The movement of Mirza Tahir Ahmad from his homeland country of Pakistan can only be described as self-imposed exile. There were no orders for him to leave the country. He went, because he could do his work in a better way outside Pakistan. This is called self imposed exile.
A self-imposed exile can be defined as a person leaving his country when he/she has a choice of staying. In case of Mirza Tahir Ahmad, a warrant was issued by the President to detain him to be tried under 295-c (Ordinance XX). This was to ensure that the Ahmadiyya Khalifa should remain behind bars for the rest of his life. So this exile can be described as a forced exile. Not self-imposed. SK 09:16, 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SaifullahKhalid (talk • contribs).
[edit] Emotional Nature
He was undoubtly an emotional man. He used to laugh and cry in the same speech or sermon many times. Of course there are hundreds of decisions which were take back. One important decision, to which I am myself witness, was his decison to reject all donations from sweden because of the mistake of a few. It was only after requests and protests from many that he felt that he had taken the wrong decision and revoked the order after a few days.
It is typical that you only ask for proofs for criticism. And never ask any proofs for any prises!
Your personal experiences, unless recorded in a publication, do not carry any credibility. So please keep them to yourself. SK 09:09, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] POVs
I agree with you on this one. I have now removed all the praises as well. But the sections like Mubahila, Bai'at figures and other minor details are also removed. If you want to express your opinions on these matters, use discussion boards. This article is only intended as a biography. Vague point of views, propaganda, and religious beliefs should not be discussed here. Regards, SK
[edit] Election of Mirza Tahir Ahmad
A dispute occurred at the time of this election in 1982. Mirza Rafi Ahmad, half-brother of Mirza Tahir Ahmed, tried to speak at the elections. He was subsequently sent out of the Mubarak Mosque, where the election was taking place. Mirza Rafi Ahmad then tried to get the attention of the ahmadies gathered outside the mosque by climbing on to a bus. However the ahmadies rejected this call and accepted the election of Mirza Tahir Ahmed as announced by the electoral college. Mirza Rafi Ahmad pleged his allegiance to Tahir Ahmad a few years later.
This is also a part of his biography. In fact this is the most important event in his life. If he was not elected head, you would not even mention him here. The history of that election is also part of this. You can not simply ignore all events and say, 'he was elected'. Do not try to supress history and well known facts. You are not doing any favour to anybody with this. See also the election of current pope, all events leading upto his election are also mentioned there. This is all part of the events.
I am aware of the incident, but your version of events is not verifiable. Kindly give a source which is unbiased and you are most welcome to add it to the article. SK 09:08, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Good, so who will decide which source is unbiased? You? Me? You can not simple unqualify all pakistani newspapers as unbiased! We both know that the events that were mentioned are true. If you think my version was not correct, then give your version! You can not delete it on false pretexts.--Lalmasjid 12:18, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
In this case you can find the newspaper references and match them with the ahmadiyya literature. I am sure Tareekh e Ahmadiyyat will have an account of the events. SK 13:05, 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SaifullahKhalid (talk • contribs).
[edit] International Baait
I have made the paragraph very short and objective. I think you cannot object to it anymore. This is an important event in his life. The numbers controversy and your opinion on this matter was not part of his life. Rather a propaganda tool against the Ahmadiyya community. Similarly a table of the numbers of converts is not required. The topic of the article is Mirza Tahir Ahmad, not "ahmadiyya converstion rate". SK 09:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
OK, I agree, in that case, I propose to make new article on international baait, and place a link here. You can not deny that this was something started by Mirza Tahir Ahmad, and is an important event in the community life.
Lalmasjid 09:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC)LalmasjidLalmasjid 09:21, 22 August 2007 (UTC) Mr. SK, do you not accept the mubahilas as true events? Or do you think they are not important enough to be mentioned here? or why else do you keep on deleting them?
Yes, I agree. Start a new article. Maybe we can include the whole history of Bai'at in Islam in it starting from Bai'at e Rizwan. International bai'at is a collecive bai'at. You should also include the bai'at figures of collective bai'ats done during the last 118 years of Ahmadiyya history. There are many famous occasions when many joined the community in this manner. SK 09:25, 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SaifullahKhalid (talk • contribs).
Lalmasjid 09:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC)LalmasjidLalmasjid 09:29, 22 August 2007 (UTC) International Baait is a particular baait ceremony. Baait rizwan was also a collective baait, and collective baaits are common in religions. So what is your point? Why are you bent upon deleting every reference to international baait from this biography? Do you think it was not started by Mirza Tahir Ahmad? Why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lalmasjid (talk • contribs) 09:29, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
Lalmasjid 09:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)LalmasjidLalmasjid 09:32, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
You can mention international Bai'at ceremony by all means. It is the numbers controversy and tables that do not fit with the theme of the article. SK 09:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
I think this should be covered under MTA as the most distinguishing feature of this ceremony is its live transmission. I have added a few lines. SK 09:57, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Mubahilas
You have again deleted the mubahilas without giving any reason, why? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lalmasjid (talk • contribs) 09:32, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
I have given reasons above, in the Mubahila section on discussion page. SK 09:52, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Lalmasjid 10:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC)LalmasjidLalmasjid 10:19, 22 August 2007 (UTC) In that case, would you agree to a seperate article on Mubahilas in the life of Mirza Tahir Ahmad and a link here? I do not know the ahmadiyya stand on mubahilas, nor what happened to ilyas suttar or what that mubahila was about. So pardon me if i have made a mistake on this one. I was provided this info via an e-mail message.
Also, why did you delete the election of mirza tahir ahmad part? As mentioned before, all events leading to the election are part of history. The events were published in newspapers and nobody has denied them. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lalmasjid (talk • contribs) 10:19, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
Lalmasjid 10:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC)LalmasjidLalmasjid 10:28, 22 August 2007 (UTC) Do you agree with the short section on Baait now? If you have any reservations, you can put your arguments in the baait article. But I think that this is an important event in the biography of mirza tahir ahmad and should be mentioned here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lalmasjid (talk • contribs) 10:28, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
There is neutral view point of what mubahilas meant for the general public. Zia's death was the work of CIA (and not God) according to the mullas. The illness of Khalifatul Masih (ar) was a result of a very busy schedule and work load and not due to a question asked by ilyas sattar (about st. paul), according to Ahmadis. You can mention the mubahilas, including the one given to all the leaders of extreme religious groups. This general mubahila (according to ahmadis) has resulted in utter humiliation of a great majority of mullahs. Now if you want to mention the urdu news papers as references, then I would disagree with that, as vernacular newspapers of Pakistan clearly take sides with maulvis. SK 11:53, 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SaifullahKhalid (talk • contribs).
I think we can make an objective addition. Mubahilas were given and accepted by Mirza Tahir Ahmad. Who died or suffered the wrath of God is a subjective thing. We can describe that according to ahmadiyya community zia ul haq died due to wrath of God and that the illness of Mirza Tahir Ahmad was a result of wrath of God according to ilyas suttar. Both of these are claims and can be mentioned as such. Both mubahilas are published in the official organs of the community so there can not be any debate on history on this. Do you agree to addition to this article? I think it is an important event in his life, mentioned in all official biographie, it must be included here. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Lalmasjid (talk • contribs) 12:10, August 22, 2007 (UTC).
In that case, you can not ignore the General mubahila. Which was given to all leaders religious parties in Pakistan. In this case, the Ahmadiyya claims of the success of this mubahila will go on and on. Changing the article into a discussion on mubahila rather than anything else. I can start naming the names of the KhatmeNabuwwat maulvis who have perished violently in the last 15 years. This continues to date and I will be compelled to include the lal masjid incident in my list as well.. You will obviously disagree with these, but I have my opinions and including the details of Mubahilas will inevitably change into a lengthy article in itself. You can start a new topic, just like that of Bai'at. SK 13:02, 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SaifullahKhalid (talk • contribs).
[edit] Revelation, Rationality...
Why did you remove the link to the article by Tahira Pervaiz? Do you think, Revelation ... should also be removed from this biography? Or you can not accept any form of criticism?--Lalmasjid 11:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
Tahir parvez, or syed rashid ali or such likes are not reputed authors. A "blog" does not constitute a proper citation. SK 11:47, 22 August 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SaifullahKhalid (talk • contribs).
I agree, I have removed the link now.--Lalmasjid 12:04, 22 August 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Ahmad.png
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