Talk:Mir Jafar

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do you think that this is where disney got the idea to name the bad guy in Alladin Jafar?

Just an idea, not enough confidence here to actually make an article about it.

No. The story of Aladin comes from Arabian Nights, which predates Mir Jafar by 900 years. --Ragib 19:22, 5 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Disputed neutrality?

I noticed a "neutrality" flag in the article, but no discussion. The earlier article came down very heavily on Mir Jafar being a traitor and the only reason for British Rule in India, which I changed to a more balanced view. Some of the stories of his cowardice were somewhat exaggerated, and his plotting to gain power was hardly unusual in the fractured and vicious politics of the time. Not to say that he's an angel, but his treachery has received more notoriety because of the events involved, not because he was exceptional. The widely quoted "betrayal on the battlefield" seems grossly overstated. Mir Jafar and Siraj-Ud-Daulah were hardly on good terms well before the battle, and Siraj was already on the retreat from the resurgent British. Further, the holdback of troops by Mir Jafar happened at Katwah, not at Plassey - it enabled the British to advance to Plassey where Siraj faced them and was defeated. --Shanky 01:56, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Thank you for your improvement. I don't know why the flag was set, but I have removed it now. -- Robert Weemeyer 11:36, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one article was rated and this bot brought all the other ratings up to at least that level. BetacommandBot 00:01, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit war

There's a reversion war going on without even basic discussion on this talk page? That's ridiculous. Ragib, HumayunMirzajr, please discuss your concerns here and work out a resolution so that the page doesn't have to be protected. kmccoy (talk) 09:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't really have any issues ... if you check the history, I stumbled upon this page today after editing it last in 2005 (2 years ago), and noticed a section being removed. Since the section didn't have any references, I looked up and added one. HumayunMirzajr (talk · contribs) seems to have taken offence at that particular section, and is removing it without any explanation. I've reported him for 3RR. Other than that, I have no issues or disputes regarding this page, as the page history shows. Thanks. --Ragib 09:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


'Descendants' is the issue I am concered. As I am doing this according to my own wishes and wishes of Major-General Iskander's Mirza's Daughters/ My aunts. The Part which I keep on deleting has caused vandalising in reality. HumayunMirzajr. and if this isn't a good enough reason I can give evidence of this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HumayunMirzajr (talk • contribs) 09:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


Well, please, provide a reference as to why the referenced paragraph is not true. Please provide a reference from a reliable third party source. Any reliable sources are most welcome here. Thank you. --Ragib 09:28, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

http://www.4dw.net/royalark/India4/murshidabad.htm The Source of The Mirza's Family Tree. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HumayunMirzajr (talk • contribs) 09:31, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Can you point to the specific page please? I'll look through it tomorrow and verify. Thanks. --Ragib 09:38, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


http://www.4dw.net/royalark/India4/murshid14.htm Major-General Iskander Mirza's Page and background. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HumayunMirzajr (talk • contribs) 09:40, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


From what I read through the maze of ancestry records you presented, is the following correct?

Shuja ul-Mulk, Hashim ud-Daula, Nawab Ja'afar 'Ali Khan Bahadur, Mahabat Jang [Mir Muhammad Ja'afar] (i.e. Mir Jafar)

Mutamid ul-Mulk, Mubaraq ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Mubaraq 'Ali
Mutamid ul-Mulk, Mubaraq ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Mubaraq 'Ali
Nasir ul-Mulk, Azad ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Babar 'Ali Khan
Wala Jah, Burhan ul-Mulk, Ihtisham ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Ahmad 'Ali
Humayun Jah, Shuja-ul-Mulk, Ihtisham-ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Mubaraq 'Ali
Faridun Jah, Muntazim ul-Mulk, Mohsin ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Mansur 'Ali Khan Bahadur
Khurshid Qadr, Sahibzada Sayyid Iskander 'Ali Mirza Bahadur
Jafr Qadr, Sahibzada Sayyid Muhammad Fateh 'Ali Mirza [Nawab Mirza].
Iskander Mirza

If so, it conclusively proves that Mir Jafar was the ancestor of Iskander Mirza. Can you check and say whether the above is correct? Thanks. --Ragib 17:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


It does prove that 50 % not complete. The other 50 % I have evidence of I am not saying you're wrong 100 % only 50 %. —Preceding unsigned comment added by HumayunMirzajr (talk • contribs)

I don't understand what you said above, would you care to elaborate? I used the genealogy tree YOU mentioned, and followed the "Son-of" sequence from Iskander Mirza back to Mir Jafar. What is then wrong here? A person can be the son of only one person, so if your own reference supports the reference I added, what contradicts that? Please state this clearly. --Ragib 17:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)



Mutamid ul-Mulk, Mubaraq ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Mubaraq 'Ali Nasir ul-Mulk, Azad ud-Daula, Nawab Sayyid Babar 'Ali Khan

this part... a missing link and yes I know its my source. The missing is that Ali Nasir had a daughter not a son. So its like this : Daughter --- Son (becomes nawab) ---- Son ---- Daughter ---- Son ------- son --- son--son ---son --- Iskander Mirza —Preceding unsigned comment added by HumayunMirzajr (talk • contribs) 17:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

In that case, please provide your source (which must be reliable) so that we can verify this ourselves. Also, please sign your posts with ~~~~ --Ragib 17:29, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


My source sadly passed away, but to prove this we can go to murshidabad and I can show the proof. and I know how to sign my friend. HumayunMirzaJR 17:32, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
Well then, until you come up with the reference, we can stick with the genealogy information we obtained from *your source* above, and also from the reference I added. Per WP:V, I'll restore the paragraph tonight along with the new genealogical information reference. If you have a verifiable information, that is also welcome. Verifiability is the core principle of Wikipedia, and we must adhere to it. Any information added must be supported by reliable sources, and unverifiable personal knowledge is not at all a source. Thank you. --Ragib 17:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Well not exactly we are not safe, and a person being grand son of mg-Iskander Mirza should be enough, but the Sir Name's is also makes it obvious... about my proof. I am sure Bibliography BK Gupta, Sirajuddaulah and the East India Company, 1756-57, Leiden, 1962; Kalikankar Datta, Sirajuddaulah, Calcutta 1971; JN Sarkar (ed), The History of Bengal, II, Dhaka, 1972; AK Maitreya, Siraj-uddaula (in Bangla), Calcutta, 1304 BS; S Chaudhury, The Prelude to Empire: Plassey Revolution of 1757, New Delhi, 2000. You can find for sure evidence from this if you get you're hands on it. HumayunMirzaJR 17:45, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


My other source perhaps would be by a book by my uncle ' From Plassey to Pakistan'


List of Illustrations 
 ix

Preface xiii Acknowledgements xix

Bengal and its Nawabs 
 1 (20) 
Early European settlements 
 2 (2) 
Murshid Quli Khan and Aliverdi Khan 
 4 (8) 
Siraj-ud-doula 
 12 (3) 
The Black Hole of Calcutta 
 15 (6) 
Syed Mir Mohammed Jafar Ali Khan 
 21 (26) 
The Conspiracy 
 25 (6) 
The Battle of Plassey 
 31 (7) 
The Aftermath 
 38 (1) 
Encroachment of the English 
 39 (8) 
The Heirs of Mir Jafar 
 47 (26) 
Reigns of his Sons 
 49 (4) 
Further Encroachment of the English 
 53 (4) 
Later Nawabs 
 57 (16) 
Syed Mansur Ali Khan 
 73 (44) 
Early Life 
 74 (5) 
Problems with the British Government 
 79 (16) 
Visit to England 
 95 (11) 
Abdication 
 106 (11) 
The Meerza Family 1880-1947 
 117 (14) 
The Nawab Bahadurs of Murshidabad 
 117 (6) 
The English Relatives 
 123 (8) 
Syed Iskander Ali Mirza 
 131 (124) 
The Early Years 
 132 (7) 
The Indian Political Service 
 139 (11) 
Transition to Independence 
 150 (3) 
Creation of Pakistan's Armed Forces 
 153 (6) 
The Princely States and the Kashmir Issue 
 159 (5) 
The Army's Changing Role 
 164 (3) 
The Road to the Presidency 
 167 (16) 
The House of Musical Chairs 
 183 (36) 
The Revolution 
 219 (12) 
Exiled 
 231 (24) 
The Vanishing Breed 
 255 (74) 
Early Life in India and Pakistan 
 256 (9) 
Move to America 
 265 (27) 
General Mohammad Ayub Khan 
 292 (6) 
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto 
 298 (21) 
General Mohammad Zia-ul-Haq 
 319 (10) 
Epilogue 
 329 (12)

Appendix I: Genealogy 341 (6) Appendix II: Rules Governing Marriages in the Nizamat Family 347 (6) Appendix III: The Royal Military College Sandhurst Records-1920 353 (2) Appendix IV: Letters of Iskander Mirza 355 (10) Appendix V: Telegram from Air-Vice Marshal Canon, C-in-C Royal Pakistan Air Force 365 (2) Appendix VI: President's Proclamation 367 (4) Appendix VII: Letter dated October 11, 1958 from President Eisenhower to President Mirza 371 (2) Appendix VIII: ``Secret Telegram dated September 23, 1958 from the U. S. Embassy in Pakistan to the Secretary of State in Washington D. C. 373 (2) Appendix IX: Exchange of Letters with Governor 375 (6)

Thomas E. Dewey

Appendix X: Estate of President Iskander Mirza 381 (4) Appendix XI: Resignation of President Iskander Mirza and General Ayub's statements upon assuming the presidency 385 (2) Appendix XII: Exchange of Letters during the October 1965 War with India 387 (2) Appendix XIII: Correspondence with Zulfikar Ali Bhutto 389 (2) Appendix XIV: Letter dated October 17, 1958 from US Secretary of State, John Foster Dulles to President Iskander Mirza 391 (2) Notes 393 (14) Bibliography 407 (6) Index 413

—Preceding unsigned comment added by HumayunMirzajr (talk • contribs) 18:06, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Your being the "Grandson of " whatever is of no relevance here. The book you mentioned here clearly refers to Mir Jafar, so I'm confused as to what you found there to refute the genealogy. Please provide exact page numbers for your references so I can verify them. Thanks. --Ragib 18:16, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


The Heirs of Mir Jafar 47 (26) Reigns of his Sons 49 (4) Further Encroachment of the English 53 (4) Later Nawabs 57 (16) Syed Mansur Ali Khan 73 (44) HumayunMirzaJR 18:21, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

So, I'm trying to put this all together in my head. I did the same as Ragib and followed the first site given and traced the line straight back. Now you're saying that your own source isn't correct? I think there are some issues here with conflicts of interest that need to be addressed. I feel that, at least to some extent, the motivation here is not what is best for Wikipedia, but what is best for a particular family. I'm going to go back to an edit which includes the text, as sourced by Ragib. I am eager for other editors without personal involvement in this matter to take a look at the relevant edits. kmccoy (talk) 07:25, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page protection

I urge any admins who come here in response to a request for protection to look at the situation and, instead of protecting the page, consider warning or blocking editors who make continued reverts without discussion on the talk page. kmccoy (talk) 09:22, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I'm not editing the article until I hear HumayunMirzajr's explanation for the removal of referenced information (he must have some reason for vehemently opposing the info ...), so waiting for his references. I've explained 3RR to the user and requested him not to remove referenced info without discussion. Thanks. --Ragib 09:25, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page move

Why was this article moved from "Mir Jafar" to the title "Mir Jafar of Bengal"? --Ragib (talk) 15:09, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

lol the reason probably because the dude is against him 100% and hates him so he wants to say the Bengalis hate him probably HumayunMirzaJR (talk) 18:04, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this term ("Mir Jafar of Bengal") being used anywhere (only 10 Ghits). I'm moving it back to Mir Jafar, which is the term used to refer to the subject. --Ragib (talk) 19:35, 25 April 2008 (UTC)