Talk:Minor scale

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[edit] Grammar

"In other words meantone tunings the semitone is not half of a tone, but a somewhat larger interval." This is not an English sentence. (Nor, by the way, does it semantically follow its preceding sentence). Please fix. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.18.201.182 (talk) 02:54, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spacing

The major scale is defined in terms of the spacing of its notes

tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, semitoneAlso known as "Whole step, whole step, half step, whole, whole, whole, half"

This has not yet been done for minor scale. It only says that some notes have been augmented (raised in pitch).

I may be able to work out the spacing of the notes by the sharps and flats used. -- User:Karl Palmen

For the Harmonic Scale it is tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tonesemitone, semitone User:Rjstott (before adding to minor scale someone else should confirm!)
On the Melodic ascending part it is tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, tone, semitone though I've never understood the relevance of why it is different on the way down as scales aren't a general feature of most music!


Thanks for the information and again, I can't understand why it's different on the way down, because I see a scale as a set of notes used for a piece of music.

The harmonic tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, semitone, semitone doesn't add up. An octave needs 5 tones and 2 semitones.

The melodic tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, tone, semitone does add up. It has a run of 4 tones and a run of 1 tone and so is not a cyclic shift of major and so I'd expect it to sound different.

A look at Musical mode says this is not true and that minor is

tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone

This is a cycle shift of major. It is identical to major except it starts a tone and a semitone lower. Now I ask Why do Major and Minor Scales sound different?

--User:Karl Palmen

Considering just the natural minor for the moment (which has the same notes as the relative major, just permuted) -- it all depends on where your home note (or tonic) is. The pattern of T/S from A upwards to A' in natural A minor is different from the pattern from C upwards to C' in C major. So a melody that treats the respective tonics as the 'home' note will sound different, because of the different pattern of tone gaps. Same notes, different pattern.
If you didn't think of the 'wheel' of notes as having a home, and you could choose C or A as starting point at will, or had no idea of "starting point" at all, then there's no difference. Consider playing random notes from the whole piano keyboard from either set - it will sound the same, because they use the same set of notes. It's only human pattern-making that makes the musical structure that makes the difference. --- The Anome
I now ask about this pattern making. The answer could go in the tonic page. --- User:Karl Palmen
The presence of the leading tone, the sharp version of the 7th scale degree, is essential to establish tonic in the minor mode. It's a mistake to associate the minor mode as used in the common-practice period with the Aeolian church mode because of this. Teaching about the "natural minor" scale is misleading; that's an artificial construct derived (in a kind of back-formation) from the key signature. The key signature does not determine the notes to be used in a piece. Compositions using only the Aeolian notes sound "modal" to our ears and not in the minor mode as composers from Monteverdi to Puccini used it (Vaughan Williams, on the other hand...). There's a very interesting book which addresses this (and other topics) called "Lies my music teacher told me" by Gerald Eskelin. He argues against the "three versions of the minor scale" and argues that only the harmonic minor has any validity. However, this is a minority view and I'm not recommending we present it in Wikipedia. But this may help some of you, and emphasizing the presence of the leading tone for the major V chord may clarify the topic somewhat. Wahoofive 23:04, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)

All three of the above sequences are correct. The Harmonic minor is tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone-and-a-half, semitone, Melodic minor is tone, semitone, tone, tone, tone, tone, semitone, and Natural minor is tone, semitone, tone, tone, semitone, tone, tone. These are really three different scales. --Celtic Minstrel (talk • contribs) 12:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The dark sound of minor keys

In line with User:Karl Palmen's comment, I have a question about this excerpt from the article.

Minor scales are sometimes said to have a more interesting, possibly sadder sound than plain major scales.

I, too, noticed this years ago. To date I have not heard a satisfactory answer as to why this is so. Why is it that transposing a piece to a minor key suddenly makes it sound so gloomy and sullen? Whatever answer we come up with, it'll be an important addition to the article. Surely someone must know? --Ardonik 09:43, Aug 8, 2004 (UTC)

The minor mode may be considered "more interesting" only because it consists of three scales, natural, melodic, and harmonic, which, treated freely together, provides nine pitches (in C:C,D,Eb,F,G,Ab,A,Bb,B), rather than the seven of the major mode (C,D,E,F,G,A,B).
Any mention of the minor made as "happier" or "brighter" than the major, as fact, is not neutral. It does deserve a neutralized mention. Pieces in the minor mode are more than capable of being brighter or happier than a piece in major, and vice versus. Specifically, pieces written in major use effects which depend upon the features of the major scale. The leading-tone is one of these features and is used to create a feeling of drive towards the tonic, depriving a piece in major of the leading-tone, absent in the natural minor scale, takes away a great deal of the pieces energy, without replacing it.
More generally, see the new article section "Differences between major and minor".
Hyacinth 22:20, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Thanks for adding the section. --Ardonik 00:19, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
I copyedited it a bit; if you did some research for the section (I see a "Gjerdingen, 1990"), would you consider adding the full citation/ISBN to a ==References== section at the bottom? I found the reading to be highly advanced and quite daunting, but that's only a reflection of my own ignorance of music theory. From what I gather, the minor key sounds darker simply because it contains triads not available in the major keys, and because its chromatic range is greater. Did I get it right? And if I did, where does the "darkness" come in? --Ardonik 00:40, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
It might be worth pointing out that a "change in mode" is not a "transposition", (you can't simply transpose from a minor to a major key) and the lightening of mood and sense of completion that is universally experienced by the use of such changes by techniques such as the Picardy third may need mentioning. -- Nunh-huh 00:35, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Really? I've used software (Anvil Studio) with a "transpose" function that shifted notes up by anywhere from one to twelve half-steps; doesn't that change the key? --Ardonik 00:40, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
It changes the key, but it doesn't change the mode from major to minor or vice versa. Transposition doesn't alter the intervals between notes, which you'd have to do to achieve a change in mode. - Nunh-huh 00:52, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
(Ardonik reads the article.) Oh, okay. Thanks. --Ardonik 08:39, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)

According to [1]:

  • "So, when you play two or more notes on an instrument capable of sustained tones, difference tones are produced. The difference tones produced by a perfectly just Dm triad in root position (D F A) are Bb (produced by the D and the F) and F (produced by the F and the A). These difference tones themselves produce another difference tone between them, an even lower Bb. So, when you play a Dm triad in JI, you hear a low Bb - not the ideal bass note for a Dm chord. However, when you play a perfectly tuned D major chord in root position (D F# A), the difference tones converge to produce a low D, two octaves below the root of the chord, which gives a nice sense of "rootedness" and finality."

Hyacinth 02:02, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

You mean playing a triad causes some sort of eerie aural convergence on a fourth, separate note?! I'm starting to feel that my ignorance of music theory is overwhelming; is there some sort of resource (online or offline) that could provide a layman with an accessible introduction to this field of study?
Thanks for both of your answers. --Ardonik 08:39, Aug 9, 2004 (UTC)
I think you can probably get by without needing to completely understand the foregoing, as it applies to a particular type of tuning that is not often used (these days)... Suffice it to say that the difference tones alluded to are a possible explanation of a phenomenon musicians noticed when "just intonation" was common: that they associated certain keys (e.g. C# minor, F major) with certain moods or feelings, and that transposition altered those feelings. This seems not to be a factor with "equal temperment". - Nunh-huh 22:28, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I think what this is trying to get at is harmonics and overtones. When a note is played, you don't just hear that one frequency, you hear an infinite (well, not technically, human hearing only goes up to 20,000) number of harmonics. When you play a C, you also hear the C above that, the G above that, the C above that, the E above that, the G above that, etc. I guess if you play a chord, all three notes could have the same harmonic, in which case that harmonic will sound louder than all the others. I think this is what this is trying to say... I'm not sure. --Sbrools (talk . contribs) 05:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minor blues scale

There is also a minor blues scale, as heard in such songs as "Why don't you do right?" by Lil Green and many instrumental blues, but I am not competent to do more than point this out on the talk page. Basically the third note is flattened, but I wouldn't dare write about it myself, too ignorant. Ortolan88 01:27, 9 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Check out Jazz scale and Blues scale. That's where such a thing would belong. --Celtic Minstrel (talk • contribs) 12:42, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Natural minor

"A natural minor scale, is a scale without any accidentals in it." This language is confusing at best. The scale of A Minor is the only one for which this is true. Could someone please replace it with a better definition of "natural minor"? Also, shouldn't natural minor be listed before the other types? --LostLeviathan 17:37, 13 Oct 2004 (UTC)

An accidental is not just any sharp or flat, but a sharp or flat that's not in the key signature. A# minor has seven sharps in the key signature, but there would be no accidentals in the natural minor scale. —Keenan Pepper 20:36, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Naughty Girl"

The following was removed:

  • Note. Since the augmented f-g# interval reminds the Western listener of Arabic or Middle Eastern music, harmonic minor is sometimes used to create an "exotic" effect. As an example, listen to "Naughty Girl" performed by Beyonce.

Earlier the article points out intervals in a scale which remind one of some kind of music, so that seems appropriate. My only question would be is "Naughty Girl" really in harmonic minor? Hyacinth 08:11, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

I'd say "Naughty Girl" is actually in the Phrygian dominant scale. —Keenan Pepper 20:26, 20 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] D-flat minor

How can we write D-flat minor?? There is no relative major key. Georgia guy 17:34, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Its relative major is F-flat major. You feel more comfortable with the enharmonic equivalent of C-sharp minor, which has E major as its relative. — Gareth Hughes 17:54, 24 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Diatonic and chromatic

The article uses the term "diatonic" without adequate explanation. This term, along with "chromatic", is the cause of serious uncertainties at several other Wikipedia articles, and in the broader literature. Some of us thought that both terms needed special coverage, so we started up a new article: Diatonic and chromatic. Why not have a look, and join the discussion? Be ready to have comfortable assumptions challenged! – Noetica♬♩ Talk 22:24, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestion

I'm just throwing this out here -- would anyone object to a List of songs in minor key? Ten Pound Hammer • (((Broken clamshells • Otter chirps))) 04:10, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would. The list would be much too long to be useful. —Wahoofive (talk) 03:26, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
You know, it might not hurt to have a comparison (or two) to listen to. For people who may understand what the article is saying but don't "get" what the difference is in how it actually sounds, maybe it'd be nice for them to hear what a song in a minor key sounds like compared to a song in a major key (preferably like a snippet of two well-known classical songs). Just a thought--I'm not a hardcore wiki discussion person and don't know the ins-and-outs or the plausibility of this like some of you others do. 70.57.113.4 08:13, 15 October 2007 (UTC)


I'd like to add my site as an external link as I've taken the time to write out every harmonic minor scale with the fingering and notes so could someone please have a look at it for me and give me the go ahead. http://www.learn-piano.org/harmonic-minor-scale.html thank you for your time. Ben

[edit] Merge Mohammedan scale

I was unfamiliar with the term, but it does seem recognized on guitar sites on a quick google search. As it's the same as the harmonic minor scale, it seems like it could be merged there (with simply a brief note of the name). Rigadoun (talk) 18:34, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard of it, but I'd say do it. If you can, add some information describing in what context this term would be used instead of harmonic minor. - Rainwarrior 04:03, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I can definitely see why you have suggested this. After reviewing the page, you are indeed correct that Mohammedan and the melodic minor scales are one in the same. I can see no reason why they should not be merged. Perhaps someone might include an explanation, however, as to how the Mohammedan received its name? I am curious to know.

143.207.8.4 11:51, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Anthony James

The Mohammedan Scale article definitely needs to be merged according to Wikipedia policy, as it is no more than a different name for the natural minor scale. There is actually a stronger argument for separate articles on "natural minor scale" "harmonic minor scale" and "melodic minor scale", but these are probably best as sections, so as to best contrast them with each other. 82.21.244.201 12:06, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The use of the term "Mohammedan scale" to refer to the harmonic minor scale is outdated, just as the word "Mohammedan", referring to a Muslim person, is no longer in use. In Arabic classical music the maqam which was described by European orientalists as the "Mohammedan scale" is called Maqam Nahawand.

[edit] In other words (something quite different)

The article currently says:

The C major scale is C D E F G A B C, so the A natural minor scale is A B C D E F G A (A is the 6th scale note of the C major scale).

In other words meantone tunings the semitone is not half of a tone, but a somewhat larger interval.

I don't see how the second statement is rephrasing the first "in other words". I don't think the article says anything at all about temperament before this mention of meantone. Plus, the "in other words" sentence doesn't seem grammatical; "...meantone tunings the semitone is not hald of a tone..", huh? I'd just delete the "in other words" bit, but am not quite confident enough on my music theory. Can someone explain? Pfly 04:22, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Possible to improve the explanation of the nature of the descending melodic minor scale

The explanation in the article of how the descending and the ascending melodic minor scale, respectively, is obtained from the harmonic minor scale, is as follows: "either the subtonic is used, or the sixth scale degree is raised". I was much confused by the part "either the subtonic is used" and it was only after a good while that I realised that the descending melodic minor scale contains the exact same notes as the natural melodic minor scale. For clarity, I really think this should be pointed out, and I'm asking someone with a better grasp of the theory than I have!

Thanks for your question or concern. Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks! Hyacinth (talk) 02:32, 31 December 2007 (UTC)