Talk:Mini

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Contents

[edit] Limited Edition Minis

I'd like to add a link to my site http://www.minilimitededitions.co.uk in the external links section. I run the Limited Editions Register for the UK National Mini Owners Club and have a wealth of knowledge about both Limited Edition and Anniversary Edition Minis and so I'd also like expand the "special editions" area. --Minilimitededitions 20:34, 9 May 2007 (UTC) (Please add new sections at the bottom of the talk page - thanks!)

Yeah - that seems a reasonable thing to do. Our article is getting pretty long though - let's not go totally overboard on minute description of every little variation. A couple of extra paragraphs would be appropriate - but if you have much more than that to say then maybe we should think in terms of making another page - along the lines of the kit cars spin-off page. SteveBaker 23:15, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] MINI USA advertising campaign

i would like to know if all the ads for mini owners have come out. i know the add using the decoder and the cut out has come out but what about the use of the glasses? i have not yet found that ad. 66.167.233.149 01:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)mini owner and ad searcher66.167.233.149 01:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, you are asking on the classic Mini page - and for another, Wikipedia isn't a service for answering user questions - but as it happens, I know the answer and I'm in a good mood!
MINI's advertising campaign entails three 'mystery decoders' - a finely gridded viewer (the 'decoder'), a mask that blocks out all but a few letters from a printed advert and a pair of glasses that block blue and green light. All three items were mailed to all existing MINI owners in a fake book. The campaign is announcing the use of these three things in magazine tie-ins. The first two have already been announced, the third has not. However, it's clear how this will work - the glasses block all but red light - so if you make up a picture where the actual interesting information is all in the red light - then cover it with all sorts of crazy designs in blue and green - then the result will be a mess until you look through the glasses.
We can only speculate that the third event will be tied into the 2007 model year announcements...at any rate, the only way to know when the third thing happens is to watch on the MINI 'Owner's Lounge' page to see if they listed the new event yet.
Meanwhile, try this out - I made it myself - it demonstrates the principle of how the glasses work:

Image:NeedsRedGlassesToView.jpg

[edit] Archive

We reached 50+ discussion topics - so I've archived them off to Talk:Mini/archive1 SteveBaker 14:21, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Influence

The article makes the bold statement "its space-saving front-wheel-drive layout influenced a generation of car-makers", but does not back it up with facts. That is was named second most influential car in a poll is not the same thing as, as far as I can tell, the poll did not specify what features made it influencial, nor measured it's influence on car-makers. And do we have a reference for this poll? // Liftarn

So now we need other references to back up the references? The article about the poll makes it very clear how the poll was taken - there were legions of car experts brought together in an unprecedented survey precisely to find out which car was "THE MOST INFLUENTIAL" - and then you dispute that this car was pretty goddam influential? Oh - please. This is taking fact checking to a stupid degree, Give it up. I'm reverting your annoying little tags AGAIN. SteveBaker 13:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
The article also says: "The ADO15 used a conventional BMC A-Series four-cylinder water-cooled engine,[6] but departed from tradition by having it mounted transversely, placing the engine oil lubricated, four-speed transmission in the sump, and by employing front-wheel drive. Almost all small front-wheel-drive cars developed since the 1970s have used a similar configuration.... All of these novel and elegant technical innovations resulted in a car with minimum overall dimensions yet maximised space for passengers and luggage."
Some who are familiar with the history of the development of car design might say that these details are self-evident. But it may be that you disagree. Do you feel that citations are needed to confirm that most (if not all) small cars used to be rear-wheel drive before the Mini and most are now front-wheel drive, and that this design was introduced to save space? Adrian Robson 11:32, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
These features most certainly are self evident. You'll probably say that lifting the hood of my 1963 classic Mini (which, incidentally I've been restoring bolt by bolt for the past year) and observing that the engine is indeed mounted transversely and that it does in fact drive the front wheels is 'original research'. Geez.
This article made it all the way to the front page featured article of the day. It has more references than 99.9% of other Wikipedia articles and every single fact within the article can be found in one of the dozen books and technical sources we quote or in other Wikipedia articles we link to. To continually litter the article with silly little numbers and tags that throw doubt into the readers minds about the accuracy of the article is wasting your time, my time and making the encyclopedia worse - not better. Please find an underresearched article and go research the thing instead of annoying the heck out of authors who are taking the time to do things right - THAT would be a productive use of your time. SteveBaker 13:37, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I don't dispute that it has front wheel drive, nor that it has a engine mounted transversely, but I see no source for the claim that it was influential. It wasn't the first car with that layout you know. // Liftarn
I've added the reference to a book by Buckley and Rees, which describes hundreds of the world's most important cars, and which describes the Mini like this:

The BMC Mini, launched in 1959, is Britain's most influential car ever. It defined a new genre. Other cars used front-wheel drive and transverse engines before but none in such a small space.

It addresses your concerns I hope. -- de Facto (talk). 10:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mr. Bean

I've noticed that there is no mention of Mr. Bean and his adventures with the Mini anywhere in this article. Looking at the historical discussion, I see somebody added it at one point whilst it was a featured page, but it was then removed and nothing has been said since. Because of the central role the car plays in many the television episodes, I think it is at least worth mentioning in this article, even if just a trivia bullet. Could the kind people of wikipedia give a reason as to why this is absent? Bcirker 00:03, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure why that reference disappeared - my guess is that we didn't want to upset anyone between the article being FA's and getting onto the front page. But I don't think it's all that important. Mini's have appeared and starred in dozens of movies and TV shows (there are at least 40 of them listed here alone) - Mr Bean is just one of the more recent ones. Which are the most notable? Is this information more important than that the Beatles owned them - or Peter Sellers? Those were the people who put the Mini on the map - who made it cool to own one - who made it the 'cult' car it always was. Mr Bean came along just as the Mini was ending production and only (IIRC) about 4 of 5 of the sketches actually used the car. Who out there is crying out for information about 'Butterflies' which undoubtedly started the craze for painting flags on the roofs of Mini's? Should we place List of films featuring Mini cars content into this article too? 'Trivia' sections are not good for encyclopedia content (see WP:TRIVIA for some guidelines) - and I don't think FA's on serious subjects should strive to have them. I don't think talking about Mr Bean adds much to the article - and I certainly don't want to open the floodgates to dozens and dozens of TV show and movie references cluttering up the article. SteveBaker 00:56, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
Fair enough, perhaps someone can make a seperate page of pop culture references to the Mini or some such thing. I totally understand the bad precident it could set. The wikipedia trivia guidelines have not yet been formally adopted, but I see wikipedia moving away from containing random collections of facts anyway. Bcirker 00:57, 3 October 2006 (UTC)
I already took some of that initiative - the List of films featuring Mini cars was my way to remove long lists of movies from the article. It could perhaps be extended and renamed to be a list of Mini pop culture references - or perhaps just changed from 'films' to 'films and TV shows'. The 'list' style is well suited to this kind of thing. SteveBaker 13:25, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mini Magic section reversion

I wanted to explain why I reverted this section:

Mini Magic
The mini competed just as well on a circuit as it did on a rally stage. Winning no less than 5 British Touring Car Championships between 1961 and 1979. The giant killing mini's provided epic entertainment as they tackled much larger and more powerful machinery in a true david and goliath scenario. In a mini it seemed anything was possible with drivers such as John Rhodes, John Love and Warwick banks, to name only a few, who could do the impossible around corners. In 1961 John Whitmore won the BTCC in his Morris Mini minor beating a 3.8l MK 2 Jaguar in the process. The minis success continued right into the late seventies where Richard Longman won both the 1978 and 1979 in a Mini Clubman 1275GT, beating a Mazda RX-7, a Volkswagen Golf GTi and Ford Capri 3000GT.
  • Firstly it's very non-Wiki, capitalisation and punctuation is a mess, there are no links, no references (and a LOT of information here that needs references). This is a 'Featured Article' and it's on it's way to the Wiki-on-CDROM and we don't want to lose that status by diluting content that's already 'good enough'.
  • Secondly, there a lot of biassed and incorrect statements (remember - this is an encyclopdia - not a club newsletter!) - you can't say things like "who could do the impossible around corners" - No - they couldn't do the impossible. What they did was entirely possible - we know because they actually did it! This is OK language for informal writing - but no good at all for Wikipedia.
  • Unnecessarily flowery English: "no less than 5"...what's wrong with just "five" ?
  • "it seemed like anything was possible"...no it didn't!
  • Way, over-the-top: The giant killing mini's provided epic entertainment as they tackled much larger and more powerful machinery in a true david and goliath scenario....oh - please.

I'm all in favor of adding some stuff about Mini's illustrious racing history - but let's make sure we have NPOV - complete references - just the facts - good English and an encyclopeadic style. SteveBaker 00:50, 13 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Names & Trade Marks

Two points please, based on being Head of Trade Marks in Rover Group's Legal Dept from 1992-99 and a trade mark attorney with 30 year's experience:

1. My statement "Despite its utilitarian origins, the classic Mini shape had become so iconic that by the 1990s Rover Group, the heirs to BMC, were able to register its design as a trade mark in its own right" has lost the footnote it had cross-referencing it to source (see http://www.crossguard.info/about-us.html); and

2. The statement that "Somehow legal action was averted" in respect of Bond's earlier use of the name "Minicar" is unlikely speculation - if Bond had used "Minicar" rather as a generic description, could not show confusion and had no trade mark registration, then any legal action (for passing off) would have been most unlikely to succeed.

Logomage 13:18, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

  1. ...fixed. Thanks!
  2. Well, all I can say is: Check out Bond Cars Ltd - they had cars called "Minicar Mark A" (1949) through to the "Minicar Mark G" in 1964. These were not generic terms - they were very specific model name. So it wasn't a generic description and it overlaps the use of "Mini" by several years. SteveBaker 00:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New link

I have found a site which I think should be added. I have read the entries below and although the authority of the site is not known it is the only comprehensive site I have ever found listing, for free, all mini shows and events, it also shows some photos from events and gives details and link to events websites. The site is www.minievents.eu it also has a link to it's sister site www.mocs.co.uk which lists, also for free, all Mini clubs everywhere. I therefore think that in the interests of all Mini fans, such as myself, that this site should be listed in this entry as it will benefit all and it is clearly made for such a purpose. Charlynet 12:25, 5 September 2007 (UTC)


Anyone got any objections to a link to the Mini Repository? www.minirepository.com - it's good clean information about the Mini, unclogged and simple.Craigmcbeth 18:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I definitely object to adding this link. It's just another blog. Please see Wikipedia:External_links#Links_normally_to_be_avoided - it says:
Except for a link to a page that is the subject of the article or an official page of the article subject...one should avoid:
...
11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.
This page is not the subject of our article, it's not "official", it's clearly a blog (and even admits it in a couple of places) and I certainly don't recognise any 'recognised authority' at work here - so no, it's definitely not allowed by Wikipedia's guidelines. I'd add that if we allowed this one in, it would open the floodgates - there are several hundred similar Mini news/blog/forum sites out there and if we allow one then we have no good grounds for disallowing the others.
So no - please do not add this link to the article. SteveBaker 21:25, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Does it help if I add I that work for Mini Magazine in the UK, one of only 2 magazines in the Uk, also published worldwide. Not that I'm promoting that, it's more of a current affairs blog for the Mini.

No - it certainly doesn't matter who you are. Wikipedia rules are rules - we don't link to blogs - period. (I love your magazine though! Keep up the good work!) SteveBaker 18:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking on the grounds it would be more of a recognised authority (blogs allowed under these rules). Love the irony though! If you say no again I'll concede. 88.111.48.23 18:29, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

No, No, *NO*! For chrissakes! The fact that you are now admitting that this is in fact your own blog - makes it even worse. That would make it 'WP:linkspam' and self-promotion which are even bigger sins! SteveBaker 19:27, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Dude, no offense, but I don't appreciate your tone. I've looked at the other links, and aside from BMH - which produces Mini body panels - I don't see the relevance of the other links either. In addition, I must ask what qualifies you alone to decide what goes on here. I work with Minis, you work with aircraft, in which case I think I have a better authority of Minis than yourself. I have also seen that you seem to be very dictatorial to others who don't necessarily agree with you - especially those new to Wikipedia editing like myself. Yes it is a blog. Although if you lok at the guidelines you kindly pointed out it says blogs are allowed - under a recognised authority. Craigmcbeth 20:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

The only way your blog could be admitted would be if you were indeed a major recognised authority on the Mini - and with all due respect - you aren't. I've been messing with Mini's for an awful long time and I've never heard your name mentioned. Furthermore, the blog does not appear to be an information source of an encyclopeadic kind - it's not a reference document about the Mini - it's a stream of consciousness kind of thing. Hence a link to your blog is quite clearly not appropriate - and I'm sure that if you ask other experienced Wikipedians they'll tell you the same thing.
As to my tone - well, you are stretching my patience. You asked whether the link was OK - I (very politely) said "No" and carefully explained why - you asked again - I explained again - then you asked AGAIN...yeah - I was a bit snippy the third time, for which I should probably apologize - but I have been quite patient with you - and you truly are not understanding the message here. Your insistance about trying to get a link to some very minor blog into this encyclopedia (and a blog that you, personally run) absolutely reeks of classic linkspam-ism. That is when someone seeks to increase the notoriety of their own website by having it linked to by the tenth most visited site in the English speaking world. I don't see you arguing for any of the other few thousand blogs - are you really telling me that your blog contains more useful information to our readership than all of those and therefore your blog should be made the exception? If not then you might understand why I strongly suspect your motives.
Well, it's not going to work OK. You may know a lot about Minis - quite possibly a lot more than I do - but you evidently know squat about the Wikipedia guidelines - and I do. I've tried to explain this to you - but you clearly aren't listening. The purpose of Wikipedias 'External Links' section is not to point to blogs and forums and manufacturer websites - it's to point to places where additional information of a permanent and largely encyclopedic nature may be found. The links (actually, with the exception of the BMH link - which I've been debating with another experienced editor in the section just below this one) are to places where there are large repositories of Mini knowledge - not to places where people are selling stuff or just talking about Mini's. This is in clear accordance with the extensive Wikipedia guidelines on such matters - which I'd like you to take the time to read before you argue about this anymore.
You wonder why I appear 'dictatorial' - but you have that quite wrong. It's not me who is saying you can't do it - it's the policy of this encyclopedia that you may not do so - and far from being a dictatorship, those guidelines have been hammered out by hundreds of thoughtful people whose interest is in making this site better. Perhaps you think you know the rules better than I do. OK - let's see if that's at all likely shall we? I should point out the teeny-tiny gold star in the top right hand corner of this article (and also the one at the top-right of the Mini Moke article). This indicates that these two articles are 'Featured Articles' which means that they have been checked in the minutest detail for good use of language, correct use of Wikipedia style, correct use of things like web links and so forth. Both articles were found to be of such quality and adherence to style guidelines as to place them both in the top 0.05% of all Wikipedia articles. I'm the person who did the majority of the work to get both articles to that state (although a lot of other people helped). If you look at my user page you'll also see that I take the role of mentor to many new Wikipedians - check my contributions and you'll see I contribute to making policies and guidelines too. So whilst you may be better at adjusting Mini carburettors than I am (actually, that's a given!) - I think you should probably trust me to know what is allowed and what isn't within these pages - at least until you've been working on this site for a year or so (right now, your only contribution seems to have been to incorrectly add your blog link and then to argue about it here).
Thanks SteveBaker 19:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] British Motor Heritage Limited

British Motor Heritage Limited is a genuine heritage company, an offshoot of BL, which was sold-off by BMW in 2001.

It manufactures genuine parts for many heritage cars, including the Mini. It still produces complete Mini and Mini Clubman bodies using the original drawings and jigs and tools. It owns the brands MOWOG, Nuffield, Standard, Stanpart and Steelcraft, and is licensed to use many of the BMC/BL heritage brands and logos, including Mini, Rover, Austin, Morris, Riley, Wolseley, and BMC.

It is as close as you can get to an "official" website for the classic Mini. Its link has been in the article since November 2005. -- de Facto (talk). 08:10, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Well...that's kinda true - but they are now just another 3rd party parts manufacturer and I think they fail the criteria for a Wikipedia link. The link to the Motor Heritage Center on the other hand was there because they retain all of the papers and archives of the Mini production - also they have the first and last Mini's off the production line, many of the rally cars, etc in their museum. THey are the place to go if (for example) you want a copy of the production papers for your Mini given the VIN number or chassis number. That link is really a vital source and must be in there. I kinda assumed that someone had snuck in a sneaky change of link to a parts company - to the detriment of the article which really NEEDS a link to the heritage center. So I'm putting it back to point to the Heritage center - if you feel very strongly that the parts manufacturer is really all that special - then please retain both links and add some explanation as to what they are in some plaintext after the link. Thanks for discussing it. SteveBaker 11:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
BMH are directly descended from BL/Rover Group, they have the original BL drawings, jigs, tools and employees. So they are not quite like any other parts manufacturer - so I vote that their link should remain. I agree that the link to the British Motor Industry Heritage Trust (housed in what is now known as the Motor Heritage Centre) should also be there. I added it originally, and on the same date that I added the one to BMH, in November 2005. I didn't notice when it was removed though, or by who, or why. You'll have noticed that I had already reinstated it! -- de Facto (talk). 13:39, 6 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] 948cc or 848cc

The current text states The engine size was reduced from 948 to 848 cc, which reduced the top speed from an unprecedented 90 mph (145 km/h) to a more manageable (for the time) 72 mph (116 km/h). This is a mixture of personal opinion and error. The engine size may well have been reduced, but reducing the capacity from 948cc to 848cc would not of itself have reduced top speed by 18mph. Equally, to suggest that a top speed of 90mph was unprecedented is a matter of opinion, not fact; there were quite a few 90mph cars around by the late 1950s. The Mini is not a car I specialise in, so I will leave it to someone else to correct this section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.207.223.247 (talk) 15:48, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Safety

I would like to have input about the removal [2] of the following text about safety:

Active safety
Alec Issigonis designed the Mini to be a safe car counting only on active safety. He said:
I make my cars with such good brakes, such good steering, that if people get into a crash it´s their own fault [1]
Passive safety:
According with the latest Road accident statistics on a model-by-model basis published by the British government, the Mini is the estudied car that offer less protection in case of a two car accident [2].
These statistics do not address the chances of being into an accident (i.e., the active safety).
Murray Mackay, Britain´s first automobile accident investigator [3] said about the Mini:
the filler cap gets sheared off, you´ve got fuel pouring out, you´ve got an electrical source and you´ve got a big fire immediately. The door latch is just like an ordinary house latch so if the door gets stretched, then the door just open out and people will be ejected and fall out without any resistance at all...[]...The engine comes back against the far wall and then the whole lot comes forward into the interior of the vehicle. So we said some very unpleasant things about the Mini in the local newspapers...[]...the Mini was a failure in North America. It was withdrawn because it couldn´t meet even the safety regulations at that time

References

  1. ^ Crash, the limits of car safety ISBN 0752211927 , page 67
  2. ^ [1] British government statistics
  3. ^ Crash, the limits of car safety ISBN 0752211927 , page 64

My comment for the summary for the aforelinked removal:

  • If my writing is poor, I kindly invite other users to improve it.
  • If my reference style is "crappy", ditto.
  • I am unable to imagine how just a say-so could dismiss as "factually incorrect" pieces of sourced data. Please explain me.
  • If someone knows that "Bumper height restrictions killed the Mini in the USA, not general safety", please add that piece of sourced information, but do not remove contradictory sourced data. Please note I used a very cautious "this source said this or that" format. I invite other users to do the same to avoid fruitless disputes. Wikipedia is not about "how things are or were", but about "what the sources say about how things are or were".

Thank you. Randroide (talk) 08:50, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

  1. The layout of your 'Safety' section does not follow WP:MOS - quite frankly, it's a mess.
  2. Spelling and grammar is poor - that by itself wouldn't have made me revert.
  3. You have errors in your quote (I'm pretty sure Mackay didn't say "far wall" - it's a "fire wall"...for example). If that's wrong - how much else is wrong? I don't have a copy of that book to correct it - but if you didn't check that you typed the quote correctly - who knows what else you mistyped that most people here will have no way to correct.
  4. You aren't using the modern 'cite' referencing style used throughout the remainder of the article...again, I would have fixed that if the new section was worth keeping.
  5. Your quote from Mackey about why the Mini was withdrawn is highly misleading - although you may have a reference that shows that he said it, it's misleading to quote people who aren't experts as if they are. A British car safety inspector cannot be expected to be an expert on the motives a major company may have had for withdrawing a car from a foreign market. Sources elsewhere are quite clear on the true reasons. Check almost any of the other books I've referenced in the article and you'll find that the Mini was pretty successful in the USA - supplies were limited - but they had no trouble selling every one that was exported there. The "safety" problem that caused it to be withdrawn was nothing to do with all of the other things you quoted - it was SPECIFICALLY because there was a minimum bumper height imposed and redesigning the car to raise the bumper was essentially impossible - and because it was believed that the engine would be unable to meet US emissions regulations. This too can be found in the many books I've referenced. Note that the Mini Moke - which was a total death-trap of a machine was sold in the US as late as 1973...the Mini saloon is vastly safer than the Moke! Your quote directly contradicts what we say (with appropriate references) elsewhere in the article - that's inconsistent and makes a mess of the whole thing.
  6. The Issigonis text is taken out of context - read Issigonis's biography (also referenced in the article)
  7. There are plenty of passive safety features in the car - but only to the level that was typical of other cars of the era (although by modern standards it's certainly not safe). Compare the 1959 Mini to a typical 1950's "Bubble Car" like the Isetta - that's the market it was in - the Mini was MUCH safer than an Isetta! But the statements that Mackey makes need to be qualified. The Mini was made over 40 years. Those awful 1959 door latches were upgraded many times over the life of the car. The 1999 Mini's (for example) has completely modern-style door latches, airbag, collapsible steering column, crumple zones, padded dash, runflat tyres, four wheel disk-brakes...you name it. Using Mackey's statement without considerable additional analysis and taking the car over it's history of design revisions is GROSSLY misleading. Just because you can find some guy who makes a ridiculous sweeping statement like that in print - doesn't make that comment something we should put into the encyclopedia. The 1999 Mini fully met European safety standards. Putting Mackey's quote out there "as is" and without considerable qualification is a downright misleading lie!
I could go on - but to dump a chunk of poorly written, badly formatted, incorrect (or at the very least, highly misleading) text into the middle of a featured article and expect everyone else to come along and happily clean it up for you is asking a lot. So I opted to "fix things" by removing the new section which (as it is) offers very little gain for a heck of a lot of loss. Please feel free to put it back when you've raised it to a reasonable standard. Meanwhile - I'm exercising my right as an editor to re-remove it because that's a lot easier than trying to patch up what appears to me to be a total loss.
SteveBaker (talk) 11:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your fast and detailed response, SteveBaker

1. IMO, it does. Reform the text -using the info provided by the refences- if you think it does not comply with WP:MOS.

2. IMO, you are wrong. Please cite examples.

3. Sorry, sir, but your assumptions are wrong. Yup: He said: "far", not "fire". You can buy a copy of the book if you want to check that fact.

4. Thank you for the info. I am going to improve the citing style.

5. I see no sources for your point. I provided a source. AFAIAC you said nothing. And the quoted fact is that a recognised expert said this and that about the Mini, not what "really" happened with the marketing of the Mini. Trying to figure out what "really" happened would fall into WP:NOR. I am a bit surprised to have to remind this fact to such an experienced editor as you.

6. The Issigonis text has a crystal clear context: Is a quote about the Mini uttered by its designer. This is the perfect place for that quote. Plase present your arguments if you think the opposite.

7. Where are your sources for that (alleged) lacth improvement?. Please, quote: I am open to buy books about the Mini and to get educated about this car. "The 1999 Mini fully met European safety standards" Where are the sources for this interesting assertion?. Where are the sources for the rest of your assertions?. Where, please?. I would like to add those sources saying that the Mini is a safe car to the article, because I suppose all of us want the whole picture about the safety of this car.

Plase recheck my cite format improving. Your referenced facts about the safety of this car are welcome. Randroide (talk) 12:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)


Although a Safety section would not be out of place in the article I don't think that which is presently included is acceptable.

First, be very, very careful about quoting Issigonis. He was well known, as stated in his biography, for making often outrageous statements to journalists to see how they re-acted. eg "Cars don't need heaters. If it is cold you put your coat on." (About the Morris Minor I think)

I have never heard of Murray Mackay but doubt very much he is "Britain´s first automobile accident investigator". Vehicle accidents have been investigated since the 19th century.

The section quoted on the Mini is, to say the least, odd. It falls into the old mistake (deliberately?) of taking past events and using them in today's context. In the 1950s nearly all cars had exposed filler caps that could, just possibly, in an accident be sheared off and there are "electrical sources" all over a car, but most accidents still do not end in a fire in spite of what is shown in TV and Hollywood dramas. As SteveBaker points out, the Mini door locks were continuously improved over the years, look at a parts manual if you don't believe it. There is no such thing as a "far wall" in automotive engineering. Any car door, if sufficiently "stretched", will burst open but the author then conveniently forgets that there are seat belts to keep the occupants in the car. I note that the author the book, Nicholas Faith" seems to specialise in disasters having written books on air crashes and rail crashes as well. Malcolma (talk) 10:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Malcolma.

Regarding your points:

1. If Issigonis used to make outrageous statements that was his problem, not ours. He said this or that, therefore it is quotable.

2. I presented a reputable source -A Channel Four book- stating that yes, Mr. Mackay is the first British accident investigator.

3. The Mackay quote is cited in a 1997 book, Which? still lists the Mini as a "worst" car safety-wise. The reason for this beating on a 1950s design: The Mini has been produced until the year 2000. No one protests about the safety of the Ford Anglia or the Vauxhall Velox, because those cars stopped being produced in the 1960s.

Moreover: Sources stablish the notability and oportunity of criticism, not the opinions of editors, and sources speak loud and clear about the Mini. OTOH, if you have sources presenting your views about criticisms on Mini´s safety as "taking past events and using them in today's context", please feel free to add those views.

To sum up: The "old mistake" -if any- is commited by reputable sources, and therefore could and should be cited and sourced in the article.

4. I see no sources for your "door improvement" claim. Please add those sources to the section. ISBNs, please.

5. There is no such thing as a "far wall" in automotive engineering...the source I presented seems to prove the opposite.

6. "Any car door, if sufficiently "stretched", will burst open but"... no one said the opposite, and I am not the one making comments on the Mini doors, but Mr. Mackay. If you have a source defending the Mini latches, please add it.

7. "I note that the author the book, Nicholas Faith" seems to specialise in disasters having written books on air crashes and rail crashes as well". Fine. And what is your point?.

Randroide (talk) 10:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

You have a very strange idea of how to write an encyclopedia. You are taking the line that if you can prove that something was said by someone at some time in the past then it belongs in the encyclopedia unless someone else can prove that it wasn't said. Sure, that's the standard for verifiability - but you are missing the twin principle of NOTABILITY. That Issigonis said something in jest (which he did a lot - especially if you quote him without surrounding context) - is not necessarily notable, even if it's true that he said it. He also said that he didn't think women should drive cars because they couldn't do so safely...that didn't stop him from designing cars that women would like. Your safety guy may or may not be a good safety expert - but he was speaking in a narrow context - possibly about just one model year of the car. Whilst I don't doubt that he said it (although I'd be VERY surprised that a real, live car expert of any kind would talk about a "far wall") - we don't have to provide evidence that this was not a notable comment - it's not notable because it's not being said by a Mini expert - and it cannot possibly apply to cars after the mid-1960's when the concept of passive safety happened to take off. I don't need to prove that Mini's were improved beyond what he said because it's self evident in the fact that Mini's were still being sold as late as April 2000 when the last one rolled off the production line...it would have been totally illegal to sell a vehicle with the flaws that your "expert" refers to. So we know - for sure - that your expert must have been speaking very narrowly - possibly he was wrong - possibly he was talking specifically about (say) the Mk I Mini. We don't know (at least from the information you have provided) that he was speaking about all Mini's - but we do know that if he was speaking in that way that he MUST have been wrong.
I don't see how you can possibly deny the truth of that argument - so why do you persist in putting CLEARLY untruthful (or at least very misleading) information into this article? Verifiability isn't everything. Notability and truth and not quoting out of context and appropriateness are all things that matter here. I have a reference that PROVES that George Bush was the president of the USA in 2006 - but does that mean that I should put this fact into the Mini article? No! Of course not - it's simply not an important fact about the Mini. That your so-called "expert" said something (possibly about a single car - possibly about a single model year) is simply not relevent here - unless we have enough context.
Think about what you are doing here. There are MANY Mini's built in the late 1990's still on the road around the world. If someone comes to Wikipedia to find out about them because they are thinking of buying one and they read your section that says that they have lethally dangerous door locks - when in fact it would have been flat out illegal for Leyland to sell a car with door locks like that in 1990. Are you doing that person a favor by insisting on putting this quote here? No!! You are telling a flat out untruth because you are implying that the door lock issue applied over the entire lifetime of the car.
So - let's play your game here. You say that the Mini had dangerous door locks. Prove it. Where is YOUR verifiable evidence that British Leyland sold cars with illegally defective door locks in April 2000.
SteveBaker (talk) 11:45, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

User:Randroide answers to User:SteveBaker

"but you are missing the twin principle of NOTABILITY."

No, Sir. You are missing it: The notability has been stablished by a safety expert citing that quote. Sources stablish notability, not editors like you and me.

That Issigonis said something in jest (which he did a lot - especially if you quote him without surrounding context) - is not necessarily notable, even if it's true that he said it.

Murray Mackay, Nicholas Faith (the author of the book) and the Channel Four disagree with you.

Those are "sources", you are not.

He also said that he didn't think women should drive cars because they couldn't do so safely...that didn't stop him from designing cars that women would like.

Non sequitur.

Your safety guy may or may not be a good safety expert - but he was speaking in a narrow context - possibly about just one model year of the car.

No. They just wrote about "the Mini", and that includes the whole Mini range until 1967 (please see the time framing I added to the quote, suggested by the valid point you raised here).

Incidentally: It is not "my" safety guy. It is recognized safety expert. Please avoid personal remarks.

Whilst I don't doubt that he said it (although I'd be VERY surprised that a real, live car expert of any kind would talk about a "far wall")

Buy the book and have the surprise of your life.

it's not notable because it's not being said by a Mini expert

Of course it is notable: He´s a safety expert talking about the safety of the Mini. Moreover: Who´s a "Mini expert"?. Please, tell me.

and it cannot possibly apply to cars after the mid-1960's when the concept of passive safety happened to take off.

Sorry, but you are wrong. Take a look at Passive_safety#History. I know what I am talking about: I wrote most of that section.

We don't know (at least from the information you have provided) that he was speaking about all Mini's - but we do know that if he was speaking in that way that he MUST have been wrong.

Editor´s ideas are not reason enough to disqualify valid sources. If (lets imagine) Murray Mackay is wrong about the Mini and other experts disagree with him, then we would have them a debateabout the Mini, a notable debate.

I don't see how you can possibly deny the truth of that argument

I just explained you: Wikipedia-wise, it is irrelevant if Murray Mackay is right or wrong about the Mini, because Wikipedia is not about factuality, but about verifiability. And it is a verifiable fact that a safety expert named Murray Mackay said this and that about the Mini.

Please note that I did not write "the Mini has bad passive safety", but "this and that source said that the Mini has bad passive safety". If you have sources saying that the safety of the Mini is A-OK, I invite you to add those sources.

No! Of course not - it's simply not an important fact about the Mini.

Sorry, sir, but nowadays "Safety" is one of the departments that define a car. Of course that the safety of the Mini is a notable point.

Think about what you are doing here. There are MANY Mini's built in the late 1990's still on the road around the world. If someone comes to Wikipedia to find out about them because they are thinking of buying one and they read your section that says that they have lethally dangerous door locks - when in fact it would have been flat out illegal for Leyland to sell a car with door locks like that in 1990. Are you doing that person a favor by insisting on putting this quote here? No!! You are telling a flat out untruth because you are implying that the door lock issue applied over the entire lifetime of the car.

Uhmmm, well. You made a point. If you are so worried about "implications" I am going to add the relevant time frame to that quote.

So - let's play your game here. You say that the Mini had dangerous door locks. Prove it. Where is YOUR verifiable evidence that British Leyland sold cars with illegally defective door locks in April 2000.

I never added the line "British Leyland sold cars with illegally defective door locks in April 2000", because I have no source for that assertion. Moreover: British Leyland vanished in 1986.

In this venue we do not play "my game", but the "Wikipedia game". I suggest you to visit Wikipedia:Check_your_facts where you´ll be able to read this:

Of course, if material is factual, i.e. substantiated and cited, be extra careful about deleting. An encyclopedia is essentially an organized collection of facts, so consider each fact provided as potentially precious.

Please note that you deleted a whole section with 9 sources. AFAIK that´s against Wikipedia policies.

Finally: It´s not just Murray Mackay. It is Murray Mackay PLUS Which? PLUS Road accident statistics on a model-by-model basis telling us that Mini´s passive safety was bad. Three sources telling us the same history abou the Mini, sir.

Thank you for your attention. Randroide (talk) 13:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

A more minor complaint - the section seems to imply that the 1984 change to 12" wheels "to improve braking" disproves the assertion that the Mini had excellent brakes from its inception. The reference says only that the change enabled *larger* brakes - which might well be for other reasons than increased braking effort. Any increased braking effort - and indeed the possibility of using 12" wheels on a Mini at all - would be due to the advances in tyre technology between 1959 and 1984. -- Ian Dalziel (talk) 13:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
You have a point, Ian Dalziel. I am going to remove that line. Thank you. Randroide (talk) 13:27, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested links

Section for discussions, and 1 suggestion. -- Quiddity (talk) 02:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Separated by a common lineage

While I recognize the page is "Mini", given the number of redirects from badge-engineered versions, is it too much to ask for just one picture of each variant? Del the non-Mini, for instance... Trekphiler (talk) 07:41, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Mini as a Marque

I note that in the Mini section on page 136 of A-Z of Cars 1945-70 (Michael Sedgwick, 1986) it is stated that "Minis were marketed at first under the Austin and Morris names, until "Mini" became a marque of its own in 1969". This doesn't seem to rate a mention in the Mini article. I would have thought it significant. GTHO (talk) 13:07, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Merger

We seem to have a separate page covering the Mk I Mini, besides the section that exists in this article. I think it makes sense to merge them. Hethurs (talk) 18:28, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Object - The problem with a merger is that this article is already too long - and arguably would benefit from being split up into multiple articles...perhaps on a 'Mk I/II/III/later' basis. I already shrank this article once by pulling out the modern MINI and Mini Moke stuff. If we merged in the Mk I Mini article, the result would be WAY too long and would switch from the more approachable/readable style of the present article into a very turgid list of Mk I minutia from the other article - then back into a readable style for the remainder. That would suck pretty badly.
If we must do anything, we might consider making separate Mk II and Mk III articles so we can shrink this article down to a more reasonable size...but then I doubt that we have enough uniquely Mk II and Mk III information to carry that off either.
The information in the Mk I article is so much more detailed than we have for the other Mini variants - detailed to the point where it's getting arguable whether it should be in Wikipedia at all. The Mini is one of the world's greatest all time cars - so it deserves detailed coverage - but all that minutia in one gigantic article would be utterly indigestible.
So I argue strongly against a merger (although you might maybe be able to talk me into an AfD for Mk I Mini on the grounds that it's just too much). If a merger went through - I'd bet that all of the Mk I stuff that was pulled across would be deleted within a few months (almost nothing in that article has references - and most of it would be pretty tough to reference properly). We'd also be quite likely lose our little gold Featured Article star along the way because the merged article would be pretty terrible to start with.
SteveBaker (talk) 19:58, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Something needs to be done. I completley agree that it would be a shame to lose the Featured Article status, but featured status doesn't preclude further improvements. I also completely agree that the page is already quite long. Nevertheless, I do still think that something needs to be done. Now that I've been using Wikipedia for a while, navigating around it has become easier and I've become more used the two-page arrangement that we have here. But when I FIRST started using Wikipedia, looking for information on the classic mini, this multi-page situation was confusing. The structure of the encyclopedia as a whole and navigation around this part of it in particular isn't that intuitive. My first experience didn't leave me with a good an overall impression of Wikipedia. My first impression was that Wikipedia was inconsistent, not very well thought out and thus of dubious value. On balance, I think that the merge is the best solution, giving an article that is better suited for inexperienced Wiki-users, i.e everything on the original classic mini in one place. I suspect that some of the MK I text repeats itself across the two pages, so it might not grow that much. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the length of the existing article could be useful reduced without affecting its quality. So I reckon it is possible to merge the two and feel that it is sensible to do so, but I appreciate that it would be quite a big job and that not everybody will agree ! Hethurs (talk) 20:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It's been three weeks - we have no consensus (1 support, 1 oppose) - so the status quo remains. I'm removing the ugly merge tags at the tops of the articles. SteveBaker (talk) 13:52, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm not persuaded that the Status Quo is the right solution. Having two pages with information on the Mk I Mini is i) messy and ii) confusing. Despite the objection to making that merger, apparently on the grounds of article length, I note that we've still got a section on the BMW mini in the article that doesn't really belong there. I also note that a photo of the mini-metro has just been removed, so if the mini-metro doesn't belong here neither does the section on the BMW mini. This topic really does need to be sharpened up, despite its featured article status. How on earth did it acquire that status ? Wikipedia Standards seem to have slipped. I don't think I'd rate it above a B at the moment......Hethurs (talk) 19:03, 23 May 2008 (UTC)