Talk:Mingrelians

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[edit] Mingrelians are Mingrelian.

Mingrelians are a South Caucasian people and not subgroup of Georgians.Dauernd (talk) 15:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Mingrelians are a ethnic subdivision of Georgian ethnos and identify themselves as such. Please provide sources for your claims. --Kober^Talk 15:54, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Gentlemen, quit the edit warring please, you are both at 7RR apeice. Kober, despite what you may think about Dauernd's posting history, I think he raise a good point that if we make claims in the articles that Mingrelians, Svans, or Laz are a subdivision of Georgian ethnos, they need to be sourced. What many westerners reading these articles will wonder is why Mingrelian, Laz, Svan are considered Georgians but Ossetians, Abkhaz, Armenians and Azeris all born in Georgia are not considered Georgians. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:01, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Your appearance here was more than expected, but I don't really understand your question. Dauernd, possibly a Turkish-Laz nationalist, has a typical POV, ignoring anything that would hint to their relations with Georgians. The Laz are not a subdivision of a Georgian ethnos, but are a linguistically and culturally closely related ethnic group. They underwent a separate way of ethnocultural and social evolution infuenced first by the Byzantine and then by the Turkish world. They don't identify themselves as part of Georgian people while the Mingrelians and Svans do. How about you both ask Mingrelians and Svans first? The sources are numerous and can be provided at any moment. One of them, an article authored by the established American scholar of the Caucasus, has also been inserted. Ethnogenesis is a complex process; some groups have fused to produce a single ethnos; others have disintegrated, etc. Thanks, --Kober^Talk 16:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Kober, I am not Turkish. But yours this very simple machiavellian move. If that is true that you say, we must change South_Caucasian_peoples as "Georgian Subgroups" under the circumstances. Dauernd (talk) 16:30, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

No, we should not. South_Caucasian_peoples is a broader category which also includes the Laz. Georgian Jews are also sometimes (but incorrectly, imo) included in it. --Kober^Talk 16:34, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Kober, I came here because of the Britanica link you provided in Talk:Ochamchira and I wanted to do some more reading. I guess the unanswered question remains is why are Mingrelians and Svans considered a subgroup of Georgians but everyone else born in Georgia is not? And what exactly does it mean when we say X and Y peoples are a subgroup of Z peoples? If we disregard that the source you provided is not a WP:RS, it talks about linguistic affiliation. My understanding is that Mingrelian is more closely affiliated with Laz than with Kartuli so why are Mingrelians a subgroup but not Laz? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 16:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I think I have already answered why they are and we both know how and why you came here. But let's put that aside. Linguistic affiliation is not a sole determinant of ethnicity. The link I provided explicitly says: "The number of Mingrelian speakers is declining, and most Mingrelian speakers positively identify themselves as "Georgian" (Kartveli)."[1]. It is an online version of a printed material (David Levinson [ed., 1996], Encyclopedia of World Cultures, p. 262. University of Michigan Press, ISBN 0816118086) and the contributors are well-established scholars. --Kober^Talk 16:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

More paranoia Kober, suit yourself. But on topic, if Mingrelians and Svans consider themselves "Georgian", then that is what should be in the article and not some vague unsourced wording about "sub-ethnic groups". Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 17:05, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

We all remember your own paranoia, dear Poco. And the term “subethnic group” is as much vague as “ethnic group” itself. By your logic, I should reconsider my ethnic affiliation as well.--Kober^Talk 17:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Here's another passage from Kevin Tuite, another leading scholar of the Caucasian cultures:

The Georgian or Kartvelian nation comprises an impressively diverse set of local sub-ethnic communities, each with its characteristic traditions, cuisine, manners and dialect (or language). The Svans number about 40,000, most of whom inhabit...

[2]--Kober^Talk 17:57, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Dear Kober, now there are somebodies on the World who consider themselves Napoleon and say that , but we don't call them as Napoleon.Dauernd (talk) 17:17, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

That’s actually a psychiatric case. Are you suggesting that all Megrels and Svans are insane? You are smart, though. Kober^Talk 17:21, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

That is (so Napoleon cases) a psychiatric case but Megrels' is an assimilation case and NOT psychiatric, certainly .Dauernd (talk) 17:42, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, what? --Kober^Talk 17:43, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm Interesting...If Migrelian Thoughts That He/She Is Georgian, Then Why U(Dauernd And Poco) Say, That They Are Not?..I Guess I Understand Reason Of Your Conduct...U Are Simple Provocateur. U Better Go And Write Articles About Your Country, Couse Fortunately We Know Who Are We--Gnome(G) (talk) 20:56, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

First of all, this troll and vandal user Dauernd is under investigation of sockpoppetry and vandalism (for which he will be baned). Than it is ridiculous to claim that Mingrelians are ethnic group as much it is to claim that Novgorodians or Kiev Ukrainians are separate ethnic groups. Where are your sources for such a stupid and ultra-nationalist claim? Where are any hint of references in any reliable book or scholarly article which even suggest such propasterous claim? Are we basing the arguments on the blabbering of a troll and vandal xenophobe who has used racist attacks on Georgian users here? And what a surprise a Georgianophobe Prococo comes along to further deteriorate and further provoke uncalled colesion between long time contributors of Wikipedia and some Vandal troll. We are not obliged to waste time just because some Laz from Turkey (having wild dreams of ultra-nationalist euphoric grandiose of mythic Mingrelo-Laz ethnic group) have his strong anti-Georgian POV. I will consult with admins to ban this individual for good. End of dispute! Iberieli (talk) 22:08, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Iberieli, have you ever heard of Islamic Emirate of Lazistan? Lool... It is a years-old product of one troublesome user with similar agenda. --Kober^Talk 04:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest you tone it down. Calling someone who disagrees with you a Georgiaphobe is a personal attack. If we are to believe Kober source it says "Mingrelian is a Kartvelian (South Caucasian) language, not mutually intelligible with Georgian" so your comparisons with Kiev Ukrainians don't really ring true. I believe my question is a valid one, why are some groups within Georgia considered sub-groups of Georgians and others are not? Some of these other groups can claim a presence in Georgia for many hundreds of years and might even have a shared ancestry with Georgians. To summarize, Mingrelian, Svan, and Kartuli speakers are considered subgroups of Georgians, yet Laz (who speak a language closer Mingrelian than Kartuli), Abkhaz, Ossetians, Georgian Jews, Meshketian Turks (who are probably just Turkish speaking Georgians), and Armenians and Azeris in Georgia are not considered Georgian. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest you to tone down your blunt attacks on Georgia related articles and consult references and sources next time you pose any questions. I will start attaching tons of references in 3 days which will close this discussion for good. Im not even go as far as to explain the ridiculousness of Mingrelians being ethnic entity or allow myself to fall into your provocations. I think that only referenced materials should present a reliable information (rather deleting them like that vandal troll). I'll starts slowly (as times will allow) to attach references from various books. Any removal of referenced material is vandalism and appropriate actions will be taken. Iberieli (talk) 02:18, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I have not made any attacks or provocations, I just asked a very reasonable question about claims made in this article and some other articles in Wikipedia. It baffles me why you and Kober are so hostile towards others who might take an interest in your small corner of the world. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 02:35, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Please stop victimizing yourself. You always reject any reference that does not suit POV. I remember your allegations that the U.N. does not recognize Abkhazia as part of Georgia and it is only up to Mother Russia to make Abkhazia an internationally recognized as part of Georgia. You've probably missed that even the latest anti-Georgian resolution adopted by the State Duma confirms its recognition of Georgia's territorial integrity including Abkhazia. Back to topic, I've already explained that a linguistic factor is not the sole determinant of ethnicity. It is the sum of multiple factors. Mingrelians, Svans, and Georgians proper have evolved into a single ethnos through a complex way of evolution, and all groups now call themselves Georgians. If you are really interested in, I can draw a brief excursus how this happened (and about the ethnogenesis of the Georgian ethnos in general). Your obvious and honest lack of information coupled with your inherent bias makes you unable to understand many aspects of this discussion and to develop a clear picture on what message Dauernd is actually trying to convey.--Kober^Talk 04:21, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry Poco, I think they were simply calling a spade a spade. (PaC (talk) 03:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC))

How so? In other words, where have I made any attacks or provocations on this page? Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 03:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

So far added 9 refs, will add more soon. Iberieli (talk) 02:40, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Pocopo, you've failed to demonstrate that the refs provided by me and Iberieli are unreliable. You're just enjoying this situation. Your latest accusations of canvassing are also false. Please consult WP:Canvassing and then recheck my post in the Georgia Portal talk.--Kober^Talk 03:57, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Kober, I have replied to you in the talk page where you first posted this question. Despite what you may believe, my question about the different ethnic groups in Georgia is a sincere question. Also, how do you feel about the fact that Sopho Khalvashi‎ (Laz ethnicity) is in the collage at the Georgians article yet the Laz peoples aren't considered a sub group of Georgians, just "closely related"?

Khalvashi is a surname of Laz origin. She comes from the Batumi-based Laz community which has long integrated into the Georgians. There're many families that trace their origins to Abkhaz, Ossetian, Ingush and Armenian roots. Suffice to have a look at the long list of Georgian noble houses. Bagapsh is also a surname of Laz origin, but the guy is Abkhaz. I don't think that your comparisons are correct.--Kober^Talk 04:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

And plus Khalvashi remark is completely irrelevant when confronted with question of vandalizing referenced materials. I'm half Mingrelian, and actually speak Mingrelian dialect, also I have Svan origins. So what? Next time "proco" instead of enjoying and further elaborating on some xenophobe attacks by anon Turkish Laz (if he is Laz, which I highly doubt), I would suggest you to concentrate your energies on real problems. Kober, is a long time contributor to Wiki who has amazing contribution (a very long list of articles which he initiated and finished) to this encyclopedia. Kober, there is no need for any further discussion, this vandal will be "rv"-ed every time he deletes referenced materials which will finally lead him into indefinite ban. Lets not feed trolls. Case closed. Cheers. Iberieli (talk) 15:36, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Note

A note for the participants of the discussion: User:Dauernd is possibly associated with multiple IP vandalism and sockuppetry that have been recently taking place on several interrelated articles. Please see Wikipedia:Requests for checkuser/Case/Dauernd for further information. He has been blocked and I'm sure either he or one of his anonymous associates will again come here to disrupt the article. I urge the users positively interested in the development of the topic to avoid multiple reverts and immediately report him (them) to the admin board (WP:AN3, WP:AIV). --Kober^Talk 04:03, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

hallo aus Georgien, aus Georgisches Wikipedia. Wenn sie sagen dass die Mingrelier und Swans sind nicht Georgiern, das fur mir und fur alle georgier sehr beleidigend! Georgien ist vielnationalische Land, weil hir wonen Abchasen und Osseten, die Georgier nicht sind, aber sie mussen behalten:

• die Swanen
• die Mingreler
• die Kacher
• die Adscharer
• die Imeren
• die Kartler
• die Racher
• die Lazer

und auch anderen, sind Georgier!!! Dato deutschland (talk) 10:26, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fringe Theories notice board

I want to get broader input into this whole theory of subethnic groups because it seems somewhat odd to me so I've asked the Fringe Theories noticeboard for their input. Please discuss here if you would like to add your thoughts on the subject. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:54, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I have come here from the noticeboard. I think it's quite clear that subethnic group is a useful category used by scholars. For example, English people can be seen as a subethnic group of British people. What are the fringe theories you are discussing? Itsmejudith (talk) 11:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Nice try Poco! Its his hoax attempt to discredit reliable well sourced material Itsmejudith but you see when confronted with ton sof scholarly sources, its a waste of time not only for him but for all of us. Here [3], and there are tons more. Iberieli (talk) 14:50, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Itsmejudith, we should keep our discussion at WP:FTN however to use your analogy vis-a-vis the Georgians, Mingrelians, and Laz, I think it would be the equivalent of the English people and the Scottish People being considered British but the Welsh people not being considered British. Pocopocopocopoco (talk) 01:45, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Sources, Sources.... your POVs are irrelevant. Enough references were provided. Iberieli (talk) 01:47, 3 April 2008 (UTC)