Talk:Mind control

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[edit] Links

The "religon and mind control" link leads to a blog with only one entry, and a picture of a baby. Should this really be in Wikipedia? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.213.170 (talk) 14:31, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Not only that, that web page takes you to a link where you can buy the guy's book on mind control, called "Dr Tee's Mind Control." It promises:

This booklet tells you how to know the thoughts of others and how to control every facet of your own life. It is the true guide for finding happiness in your life.

It's about 5$ and its author is clearly spamming this entry. It has no place here. I am going to remove it and suggest someone note the I.P. of the poster who added it. Perhaps they should be blocked? They may be spamming other subjects as well. IsaacJ 15:12, 8 November 2007 (UTC)IsaacJ

[edit] Possibly speculative sentence

Hi folks... Isn't the following sentence a bit too speculative for an "encyclopedia" article?:

Some arguments in support of mind control conspiracy theories in fact stem from the belief in other conspiracy theories which, if they were true, would seem to validate such thinking. For example, if the belief in the presence of extraterrestrials were to be considered a given, this would give reason to believe that conspiring forces may possess the means of technology required to execute such actions.

It seems like a pure exercise in speculation. While interesting it seems to me that this is definitely OR. I propose that we take it out. Tanaats 04:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and took it out. It's copied below in case anyone wants to protest.

Some arguments in support of mind control conspiracy theories in fact stem from the belief in other conspiracy theories which, if they were true, would seem to validate such thinking. For example, if the belief in the presence of extraterrestrials were to be considered a given, this would give reason to believe that conspiring forces may possess the means of technology required to execute such actions.

Tanaats 22:30, 2 January 2007 (UTC)


Didn't you say you took out the sentence? Which sentence do you mean? The whole paragraph looks the same both times. Or are you saying you took out the entire paragraph? In which case, why didn't you copy the section in which that paragraph is now missing? Jaylectricity 02:26, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Sheesh, the change is a whole 4 edits back, if you want the entire context there it is. I thought I was being especially courteous by even taking the trouble to copy the deleted portion here.
I misspoke when I called it a "sentence", sorry. But I followed the word "sentence" with exactly what I was referring to.
If you want to discuss the change, let's discuss that. Tanaats 04:34, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Zimbardo vs. "reconsidering the APA position on mind control"

Regarding the sentence "In 2002 Dr. Philip Zimbardo who teaches at Stanford University a course "the psychology of mind control", commented on the request by former members of new religious movements (NRMs) to reconsider the APA's position on the possibility of mind control"...

The cited article doesn't say that NRM members asked Zimbardo to reconsider the APA position on mind control. (For one thing the APA has never taken a position on mind control, see for example the final sentence in the DIMPAC rejection memo.) To achieve maximum accuracy, I've replaced that statement with a direct quote from his article. Tanaats 23:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] This discussion has the same problem as the article

This particular talk page is NOT getting anywhere and here is why. Most of you are having discussions on various events and experiments and whether or not there is proof or any indication of sources for each theory. If we want to delve into the plethora (haven't used that word in a while) of theories and events in history, the Mind Control page will be muddy forever.
More important to the cause of this so-called "online encyclopedia" is the need for organization. The top of the page needs to clearly define Mind Control with absolutely no anecdotes. You may feel the need to clean up my definition and that is why we have this talk page to get all of our heads together. Something to the effect of: "Mind control has long been the subject of controversy, paranoia, fantasy, curiosity and research. As such, mind control has been subjected to controversy, paranoia, fantasy, curiosity and research." At this point you may want to add a few things to that list, and then satisfy the reader's own curiosity as to HOW mind control has been the subject/subjected to...
Now in each of those, it needs to be divided between fiction and non-fiction. Just because you aren't sure something has been proven, or there are no sources/citations does not make it fiction. It makes it debatable. Fiction works are created by authors, directors, producers etc. as a means of a FICTIONAL story. Lots of web surfers need you to relate them to popular works because most people are sheep. But I digress. This fact means that fictional works DO have a place here, but they ought to be relegated to smaller sub-topics within a larger non-fiction topic. But to lead an entire topic on the page by mentioning the Manchurian Candidate without first having described the techniques used in the story becomes distracting. Sonic Magno-Waves (fake technique I'm using for example) need to be explored and defined before bringing a movie named "SMW From Space" into the topic.
In regards to what should be considered mind control and simple persuasion there should be a paragraph addressing that, but with most of what is considered simple persuasion put into links to other pages. Mind control is mind control and nothing else. Using techniques to cause a person to do something against their will, or to do something without realizing what they are doing, could be considered mind control. But when you start to get into things such as, "There was something about the way she talked that made me want to follow her orders" that starts to slip over to persuasion. Things such as hypnosis to quit smoking also misses the definition of mind control. One could say that my repeating the words, "I hate alcohol" over and over for 3.5 hours as a means to quit is actually me exhibiting mind control when actually it is closer to "self-control." Mind control is an entry in Wiki for very obvious reasons. Because it refers to specific actions with mostly negative connotations. Any other use of the term "Mind Control" is simply putting two words in the English language together to form a joint meaning. If we were to do that, we might as well put a definition for "Shoe Tying" and then we could argue whether the use of Velcro or snaps belong under that topic since they both can be found on shoes.
In conclusion, a lot of you use up a lot of your time writing, improving and/or changing entries within the Wikipedia. Believe me, it is much more noble than someone who spends most of their time with World of Warwhatever. You should venture out with each other and work on an outline for this page. You need to fight the urge to research each sub-topic and just stick to structuring the page. This is a fascinating topic and I came to this page only to be left totally confused and unfulfilled in my thirst for knowledge. A few others of you seem to be more passionate about getting YOUR favorite theory or idea posted here. Those of you should spend your time creating the part of the topic you are passionate about. Don't worry about anything but writing out your particular section, then post it here or elsewhere for the organizers to review it. Still there are a few of you that prefer to nit-pick over proof, sources and citations. That is not a bad thing, so grab a beer, a joint, a cup of tea or whatever you like and start researching. In the quest for one reputable source you should be able to use the major (and don't forget the minor) search engines and find what you need in an hour or two. So hop to it friends!

Pre-signature post-script -- You have no idea how look it took me to get this post to look like this without dividing it into all these weird boxes and screwed up paragraph breaks. I couldn't indent for you so I'm sorry if you have to weed through the paragraph breaks. I must have been using code symbols on accident. Jaylectricity 02:15, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Thanks for the comments. I for one like all the weird boxes and screwed up paragraph breaks as it makes it easier to find information on any given subject for the reader. Some one recently went into an article I contribute to and removed the whole shebang! Take a look:Steve Poizner. Now if I were a child or just some one trying to find out information I just might get lost here without all the granny fussing we do so well here:-). As to the citations, well they serve their purpose and most recently I learned to plug in those little references because if one doesn't the work will be removed without fore thought or consideration. Then one thinks, heck, I could have planted flowers in the garden instead. Oh, I take Earl Gray w/cream, don't drink and don't do pot! PEACETalkAbout 05:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
On the topic of weird boxes and screwed up paragraph breaks, I meant that in the middle of a sentence, it would switch. Also, in one of the boxes there would be 275 words in one line of text. So you'd have to go to the bottom of the window and slowly scroll to the right while reading...It would NOT have made it easier to find anything. One Earl Grey with cream, coming up! Jaylectricity 01:51, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Planning to delete unsourced statements

I've hung "fact" tags on the following:

  • "Hassan's critics argue that Hassan does not merely say that fraudulent salesmanship persuaded the believers; he states that these groups literally take away a victim's freedom of mind."
  • "...which was usually illegal when applied to an adult,[7] and which eventually became completely illegal except in the case of minors."

I'll wait about a week and then delete them. Tanaats 22:52, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Overblown, uncritical, fringe theories with scant acceptance?

BabyDweezil,

  • As for "overblown", this is an article on Mind Control. It is the very article in which a theory on Mind Control is supposed to be well represented.
  • As for "uncritical", you are free to put in well-sourced, verifiable, counterpoints.
  • As for "fringe theories", these are among the most prominent theories pertaining to the subject of the article.
  • As for "scant acceptance", outside of the world of NRM theorists these theories have wide respect, even if not universal acceptance. (Don't believe what they tell your about DIMPAC and the APA.) Tanaats 00:23, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your opinions. However, for the purposes of Wikipedia, could you please supply reliable sources demonstrating the "wide respect" for these theories? And to make your 3rd point more precise and accurate, you should say these are the most prominent exponents of this fringe theory. BabyDweezil 01:03, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't need RSs for the Talk page. Tanaats 01:51, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Then we're agreed that you are stating your opinions, not verifiable facts. BabyDweezil 15:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
BD, I'm not saying in the article that these theories enjoy wide respect. It's ok to express OR in the Talk page. In fact, that's mostly what any Talk page will consist of. Tanaats 20:51, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Her theories were not rejected

Dweezil,

Sorry, I forgot to make an edit comment again.

Singer's theories were not rejected by the APA. The report was rejected. Read it again. Tanaats 01:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

That amounts to very much the same, IMO. But we should stay close to the sources rather than insert our opinions in the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:59, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Clarified. BabyDweezil 02:01, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Good. You might want to go over it one more time. The report wasn't presented to DIMPAC, it was presented to BSERP. Tanaats 02:07, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
Presented to the APA, rejected by the APA BSERP, to be exact. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

[edit] The Girard mention

User:130.91.119.173 says that he is Harlan Girard, and that the material about him in the article is inaccurate. Quoting him:

I am Harlan Girard and the person who made the insertion about the subject article insofar as it concerns me clearly had not read it, or wantonly misquoted and misrepresented what was said about me in it and what I believe to be true about the subject of mind control. I suggest interested persons read the article above, if they are interested in this subject.

He has deleted what he finds to be the offending material. Per WP:BLP it shouldn't go back in unless someone can establish that it doesn't violate WP:BLP.

I have removed the rest of the section which is now either meaningless or uncited. Tanaats 23:56, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Planning to delete some material

I've placed tags on material that is uncited, poorly cited, or OR. Unless there is an objection, I plan to wait a couple of weeks and then delete the material around 15 Feb. Tanaats 20:20, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steven Hassan's BITE model--waaaaaay to much space here

Hassan's model is a fringe construct with scant (probably more like "no") support in the scientific community. For it to take up such a huge amount of space, in fact more space than the work of actual scientists, doesnt make any sense, and basically amount to using Wikipedia as advertising and promotion. I plan to edit it down to a brief paragraph, summarizing his views, but would appreciate comments. BabyDweezil 16:26, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Don't do it. The scholar "mantra" is not a justification for removal of well-sourced material. Furthermore Hassan is quite a notable figure in the arena of mind control, and his theory is also notable in that same arena. What you should do instead of deleting well-sourced material is to add material from the "work of actual scientists." Tanaats 17:54, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Tanaats, cutting and pasting huge chunks of Hassan's writing isn't really what "well sourced" means. Could you provide sources that show that "Hassan is quite a notable figure in the arena of mind control, and his theory is also notable in that same arena"? BabyDweezil 18:00, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Such as, perhaps, having his own article based on his notability in the arena of mind control?
And you are again making up your own guidelines, this time as regards "cut and paste." Tanaats 19:06, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a reliable source for Wikipedia. Really, do you have any independent sources from academia that show that "Hassan is quite a notable figure in the arena of mind control, and his theory is also notable in that same arena"? If not, I'll probably make the same argument in his own article for cutting it down. I can't find a single scholarly article by Hassan, or one that discusses his BITE model. BabyDweezil 19:12, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Even cult apologist Eileen Barker recommends his book. --Tilman 19:18, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
It is indeed quite relevant that he is granted "notable" status by Wikipedia.
And no matter how many times you repeat the "scholar" mantra it won't work. Tanaats 20:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
So I take it that neither of you has any independent sources from academia that show that "Hassan is quite a notable figure in the arena of mind control, and his theory is also notable in that same arena"? If not, I'll proceed to edit the section down to a reasonable size congruent with its noteworthiness. BabyDweezil 20:48, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
You're in no position of setting up new "rules" here, and you have no position to request research. Do you research yourself, start with google for Steve Hassan BITE. --Tilman 21:02, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
No matter how many times you repeat the scholar mantra it won't work. All you will achieve is to get this page protected, yourself probably blocked, and eventually the material will get back in anyway. It may take painfully grinding our way through DR up to Arbcom, but it will get back in. Tanaats 21:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Btw, the whole concept of mind control has only mixed support in the scientific community anyway. So the "BD-Rule" falls flat anyway, and sounds like an excuse to shorten the segment. --Tilman 21:13, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Tilman, once again you have verified my very point. If the "whole concept of mind control has only mixed support in the scientific community" as you say, then we should simply show both sides in the scientific community. Hassan is not a member of the scientific community (not even in the neighborhood), he is a guy who occasionally gets quoted on talk shows and in tabloid newspaper, and nowhere else. Any suggestions as to which parts of all the extraneous material on Hassan to remove from the article? BabyDweezil 21:19, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
Showing both sides is not done by deleting one. About his respect in the community, look here: [1][2] --Tilman 21:42, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
BD, don't do it. You have not achieved consensus. Tanaats 23:35, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Promotional book material culled from the guy's website is not a scholarly assessment. Where are the scholarly assessments and validations of the BITE model that warrant giving it a huge section in the article? Can you point me to a single scholarly article by Hassan or anyone else that discusses it? BabyDweezil 23:41, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Absolutely unnecessary. Tanaats 00:45, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
I stumbled upon this article that was linked from another and noticed this section seems way overblown. It reads like a commercial for his "theories" (I'm being generous here). Perhaps it should be added to the Steve Hassan article itself? And Hassan is a crack pot to many people. An overzealous crack pot who personally greased the wheels of human slaughter for his "contribution" to the Branch Davidian massacre. Mr Christopher 15:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the Lifton section sound like a commercial, perhaps for his book?
Does the Singer section sound like a commercial, perhaps for her book?
Hassan's theory is notable, he is extremely widely known as both an author and practioner in the area, and he even has his own Wikipedia article. His mind control theory absolutely belongs in an article on mind control, and it should be fully laid out here.
Rather than expunging a theory that you apparently disagree with, what you need to do in order to fairly represnt your POV in the article is to add counterpointing information from an RS that documents your assertion that some people think that he is a "crackpot." Tanaats 19:20, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Actually yes, all of those sections are overblown, but particularly Hassan's which is completely fringe in the scientific community, even more so than the largely discredited Singer. The problem, Tanaats, in finding "counterpointing" information is that no one in the scientific community seems to take Hassan seriously enough to "counterpoint" it! What to do? And as Mr Christopher points out, not only is Hassan's ineptness apparent, such bogus, self-serving "expertise has contributed to deadly consequences. BabyDweezil 19:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
His presentation here should be in proportion to his appearance in RS; obviously not some fixed formula, but an agreeable treatment. How much RS is there on the individual and on his work in the complete body of RS on similar work or on the topic of the article? That is the index of how he should be presented here. --Justanother 19:31, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
This another innovative rule. Tanaats 19:38, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
Looks like "somebody" needs to bone up on the rules around here. Here is your assignment. Figure out where this comes from:

"the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each."

--Justanother 19:43, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
What is innovative is your theory that "prominence" must of necessity be measured according to the number of mentions in secondary sources. You wouldn't get to first base in DR with this theory either. Tanaats 19:59, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
I said it was an index, not a formula. I never mentioned "necessity". "Prominence" is a fuzzy term. But, tell you what. Please tell me how YOU would determine relative prominence. Here is some material to get you started:

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. "Verifiable" in this context means that any reader should be able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source. Editors should provide a reliable source for material that is or likely may be challenged, or it may be removed.

--Justanother 20:19, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
It is completely verifiable that this is Hassan's theory. In merely presenting a theory without comment we do not have to "verify" that it is true. There is no assertion of "truth" being made in the article. Tanaats 05:01, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

<reduce indent>

  • Does the Lifton section sound like a commercial, perhaps for his book?

Almost, but his work is seminal (ground zero and far more authorative and credible than any other person mentioned in this article) so it makes sense this section is as long and detailed as it is.

  • Does the Singer section sound like a commercial, perhaps for her book

I'm not sure about a "commercial" Yeah that one is wayyy tooo much information as well. Mr Christopher 20:05, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

If you want to boil down Singer's theory as well then I rest my case. Tanaats 20:12, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Disputed

The following I question in the section Arguments for:

  1. are the neurons or the brains of giant squids larger than the same of the human brain? The formulation is ambiguous, and not intelligible,
  2. Text says:
..humans and such experiments could potentially be applied [to] the human mind.
Yeah, that's true, but that experiments could potentially be applied proves nothing, the formulation misses the point: such an experiment must be successfully applied (to indicate either pro or con), and when successfully applied, it must clearly indicate pro electromagnetic neural control, to be eligible for a sentence in a section in wikipedia. That's the harsh reality!

Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 20:29, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Answer to the first one: neuron size. I'll fix that by myself. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 20:40, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mind control as entertainment

I suspect that the second example in "Mind control as entertainment" isn't all that useful for this article: while it certainly sounds like it fits, once you watch the video you realize that it's actually talking about people being able to control games with their minds. This article, on the other hand, focuses on sitations in which the mind is what is being controlled. 71.217.100.71 01:25, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

The material added includes links to credible and verifiable sources.24.168.224.213 17:16, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

What about the TV show "Mind Control" hosted by Derren Brown? While I tend to be skeptical, this show is very interesting. If it is legitimate, should it be referenced here and if so, how?

Here is a link to one of his videos. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQ7K5NzrGwI

Cheers,

N8dawg 07:24, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Hack the brain!!

The text says:

... subjects such as hypothetical neurotechnology that, it is claimed, might one day "hack" the human brain.[2]

I can personally report that it is virtually impossible. I'm a hacker, and I've tried to hack brains, but people tend to do what they do for their own reasons. Influence is easier, but it is like speaking to someone: they listen and filter away the facts they don't like. Said: Rursus ☻ 08:33, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Put it another way – the current article is kind of fringy and suffers from a slight conspiration theory like spirit. The topic could be seriously treated, but now it is somewhat dubious. Said: Rursus ☻ 08:39, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
The following are fringy and may need to be pushed around, removed, rewritten:
  1. hack-the-brain stuff (somebody will observe the cords out from the brain),
  2. subliminal advertising is essentially debunked as not working (the way the advertizers wish),
the psychology stuff seems good and valid/valuable to me, the conspiration theories should also be mentioned as a valid objection against some allegations. Actually, the article is quite nice, but it requires some technically oriented revision to remove the fringy stuff. Said: Rursus ☻ 11:47, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I've unanimously (as part of a world wide plot with one member – me!) decided that mind control in conspiracy theories shall deserve one separate article. It shouldn't be merged with conspiracy theories, because that article has a high quality, and treats a partially different topic, the "truths" behind alleged conspiracies, and means to determine if individual theories are viable or not. That is one of the most important and valuable knowledges today on Internet, and I wouldn't take the risk to compromize it with untechnical speculations on what is possible or not. Said: Rursus ☻ 13:42, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
And so we got rid of some more than 20 [citation needed] and similar [unverifiable nonsens] remarks! That was more than half of them. Yippee!! Said: Rursus ☻ 14:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll do approximatelly the same with the "trivia" section, but for a quite different reason: the so called "trivia" section is good and intriguing, but the topic is about using "mind-control" as per science fiction and as per fantasy logic as an exciting plot item. This is entertainment and very funny, while the Mind Control article is serious and not any laughing matter at all. Said: Rursus ☻ 14:50, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Now remaining:
[citation needed] [original research] [this source's reliability may need verification]
3 0 0
The hidden truth about everything is not residing in this article anymore, all revelations now are in the üeberphantastiqual article Mind control in conspiracy theories, go read it, but take your pills beforehand! Said: Rursus ☻ 15:07, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NRM?

The acronym "NRM" is used several times in the scholarly research section without being defined. --Sam (talk) 15:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Scientific consensus

I question what "often accepted" means. Did the person who wrote those two words mean that many individual psychologists and psychiatrists advocate these theories, no matter what their governing bodies (like the APA) has said? In other words, are these advocates mavericks, going against the scientific consensus?

Note that the article says that Singer's ideas were not accepted by the psychological association, and that the psychiatry community's diagnostic manual dropped it.

I think this article needs to be more neutral here. --Uncle Ed (talk) 18:39, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Content moved from Third-party views on Falun Gong

However, Margaret Singer's thought control theory greatly divides scholars. The scientific evidence on any "thought control" phenomena remains inconclusive. For example, in 1984 the American Psychological Association (APA) requested Margaret Singer to set up a working group called Task Force on Deceptive and Indirect Methods of Persuasion and Control (DIMPAC). In 1987, the committee submitted its final report to the Board of Social and Ethical Responsibility for Psychology of the APA. On 11 May 1987 the Board rejected the report. In the rejection memo is stated: "Finally, after much consideration, BSERP does not believe that we have sufficient information available to guide us in taking a position on this issue."[1] The Center for Studies on New Religions wrote in Margaret Singer's obituary that "Singer's decline started with the rejection of a report of a commission she had chaired by the American Psychological Association in 1987," and referred to another ruling of 1990, which excluded "her testimony on brainwashing as not part of mainline science." Though Singer is still supposed to be "lionized by the anti-cult movement" and "some media," the article contends that her increased reception of criticism "even by 'moderate' anti-cultists," means that she has appeared "increasingly irrelevant" to the "'new' cult wars of the late 1990s."[2] Singer's theory has both its detractors and supporters.

Stephen Hassan attempts to construct a theoretical model for understanding how "thought control" might operate. He suggests a BITE (Behavior, Information, Thought and Emotion) model, where "mind control" is as a combination of control over behavior, information, thought and emotions.[3] Three of Mr. Hassan's criteria--control of behavior, thoughts and emotions--were components to the theory of cognitive dissonance developed by Leon Festinger. According to Hassan, "it is by manipulating these three elements that cults gain control over a person's identity." Claiming to draw on his experience working with "former cult members," Hassan adds a fourth component to his BITE model--control of information. For each of these components, Hassan provides a list of specific practices (e.g.: a need to internalize a group's doctrine as "Truth" is one aspect of Thought Control). Hassan suggests that "destructive mind control" can be determined when the "overall effect" of these four elements "promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause." He qualifies that it is not necessary for "every single item" to be included. He contends that "mind-controlled cult members" can be integrated members of society, but "still be unable to think for themselves and act independently." With regard to Falun Gong, Hassan claims on his website to have a "strong impression" that "Thought control and Phobia indoctrination is very much used," and elsewhere that Li Hongzhi is "the cult extreme" and the "authoritarian stereotype."[4] Though he says that he has not had an opportunity to interview any "individuals who have been very involved with this group and decided to leave," and is thus not convinced that Falun Gong "fulfils [his] BITE model in its entirety."[5]

According to an essay published in The Oxford Handbook of New Religious Movements, the "mind control" and "brainwashing" theories advocated by the anti-cult movement are not generally accepted by the scientific community.[6] Lorraine Derocher has asked whether this kind of "cultism" could be perceived as "a new form of racism."[7] Another name in the anti-cult movement, Jean-Marie Abgrall, had his version of the "cultic brainwashing theory" attacked by the Social Justice Research, which contends that upon analysis, the theory is "essentially identical to the pseudoscientific theory that was developed first by the American CIA as a propaganda device to combat communism," and further as an ideological device that was put to use by the American anti-cult movement, in an attempt to rationalize efforts of persecution and control of minority religious groups. It is claimed that the theory has been researched and evaluated scientifically in several contexts, and in each of them has been shown to be "ineffective in coercively changing worldviews." The article concludes that because of this pattern of disconfirmation, testimony based on brainwashing theory has been opposed as unscientific by relevant professional academic organizations and "repeatedly excluded from American legal trials." It states that as a consequence, "neither legal decisions nor public policy with respect to minority religions should be based on Abgrall's appropriation of this pseudoscientific theory."[8]

the above has been moved from Third-party views on Falun Gong. If you think any of this content can be used to improve this article, please do so. --Simon D M (talk) 21:17, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Dubious

"closely related to hypnosis"? Maybe to an un-informed person with only a pop-culture idea of the concepts. Discuss/justify this claim or it's gone. 76.254.85.31 (talk) 16:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

I say nuke it. I'm a certified hypnotist and anyone who knows how hypnosis works knows that it has nothing to do with mind control other than in movies and novels. Sbabb (talk) 21:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] added refs to parental alienation section

I have added a couple of refs to the section and fixed one. ResearchEditor (talk) 21:26, 13 April 2008 (UTC)


THE OWNER OF THIS ARTICLE MAY BE LINKED TO TERRORISM, PLEASE CONTACT THE FBI IF YOU KNOW WHO OWNES THIS PAGE!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.82.86.146 (talk) 05:22, 1 May 2008 (UTC)