Talk:Millosh Gjergj Nikolla

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Anon user edits are good in general. Please, don't remove all, but just merge the versions. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:37, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

It looks to me like much of the material added by User:217.73.101.30 is directly copied from albanianliterature.com. Wouldn't this be a copyright violation? Tom Harrison (talk) 22:54, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

This site doesn't have explicite copyright restrictions, but I sent them request for including this material. Maybe it would be the best to put some tag for copyright violation and if people from albanianculture.com wouldn't send to me email with permissions, it should be moved to the old version. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:18, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

The site does have explicit copyright restrictions. From http://www.albanianliterature.com :
The copyrights for the original texts lie with the authors and publishers in question. The copyrights for the translations lie with the translator. The translations in this anthology may be copied, downloaded and used for non-commercial purposes if the source is appropriately documented.
Nikola 12:07, 12 November 2005 (UTC)

As I said in my last edits, I have now the explicite permission to use this text according to GNU FDL. Where to put emails if this is needed? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:41, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

At a your user subpage. By the way, please join both versions, there is material in old that isn't covered with the new. Nikola 21:54, 13 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, I think that I joined it. The first part is the old one and the second is the material from albanianliterature.com. As well as I put "clean up" tag. Thanks for the advice. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:24, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Last edits by anonymous user etc.

As I have some communication with Robert Elsie, I can say that edits from 212.41.142.242 are mostly the same as Robert suggested to me (which is very reasonable): (1) There are no data for Serbian form of his name. If there are data, please refer to them. Also, his Serbian name was not Milos, but Mirko.

Mirko Nikolla was a friend of Migjeni. Someone must have confused the two due to the same last name. Luli
If there are no data for Serbian form of his name, how do you know that it was Mirko? :)))) Anyway, here's data: http://www.rastko.org.yu/rastko-al/zbornik1990/bmarkovic-vraka_l.php Nikola 14:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you have something better? Migjeni is mentioned in two paragraphs and without any reference (or I didn't see a reference to mentioning his name in Serbian form). I think you know what did I mean: there are not data for the Serbian form of his name "Milos Djoka Nikolic", but there is data for his name "Mirko" while he was young. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 14:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
Do I need something better? Not a birth certificate, but this is as good a secondary source as one could be. It is a work presented on a scientific conference held in Cetinje in 1990 about Slavs in Albania. That is a reliable source. I don't think that I know what do you mean: there apparently are data, and I have just shown them. Nikola 21:18, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
This is not "good secondary source" for Migjeni because there is no one reference to primary (or any other secondary) source about his name and origin. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:27, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
Do you really think that the author pulled the name out of his ass? The fact that it is referenced doesn't mean that a reference doesn't exist. Migjeni isn't central point of the work. Nikola 08:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
With the second sentence, you said that author pulled the name out of his ass. If reference doesn't exist, this is a speculation. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 13:37, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
I believe that you should understand the difference between "reference doesn't exist" and "reference isn't specified". Nikola 22:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Again, you said that author pulled the name out of his ass because reference doesn't exist (or because "reference isn't specified", whatever). You should use Wikipedia for personal education. Please, start with scientific method. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:30, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, maybe it is you who should use Wikipedia for your personal education, starting with Reading. When I wrote "Do you really think that the author pulled the name out of his ass?" I used a rhetorical question: I meant that he didn't do it, not that he did. You would also do well if you would look up difference between existance and specification of something. Nikola 16:05, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Oh, you are now well known rhetor, too! Not only linguist and philologist! Some of the basics of science is not to talk about something when you don't have any proof. And there is no proof for the Serbian form of Migjeni's name. There is only one speculation about his name inside in your "relevant source". Also, there are no one proof that Migjeni's acronym was MigjOni and the author of that text claims that. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:52, 29 November 2005 (UTC)
Well, I see that you are moving to become a well known troll. Here, we are not writing a scientific work about Migjeni, but an encyclopedia article. We don't have to have the same level of scrutiny. The source I offered is proof for the Serbian form of his name. It does not speculate, the name is written in it clearly. The author doesn't specify which reference he used for Serbian form of his name (which is nothing unusual, given that Migjeni is not central point of the work), but we have absolutely no reason to believe that he didn't have one. And, he doesn't claim that the acronym was Migjoni: Mistović je postao "Misto",[27] a književnik Miloš Đoka Nikolić je "Miđeni". Nikola 13:45, 2 December 2005 (UTC)
So, encyclopedia is poetry and speculation? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:01, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

(2) The story about king Zogu is not a lot relevant. He made nationalization, but it is not relevant for Migjeni's work. It should be described inside of some article which is related to Serbian minority in Albania or about king Zogu's time, but Migjeni was not Serbian poet. He was Albanian poet who was Serb by ethicity.

If he was Serb by ethnicity, he was Serbian poet. Maybe he wrote only Albanian poetry, but he was Serbian poet nonetheless. Even if not, I don't see why Zogu's crackdown on Serbian schools would not be relevant. And, by the way, Migjeni isn't an acronym as it doesn't include only first letters but the first syllables of his name. Nikola 14:13, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
So, Mihalj Kertes is Hungarian politician? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 14:26, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
If you are head of customs, you need some technical knowledge; if you are a poet, you need emotions. That is why ethnic origin is not important attribute of a head of customs, but is of a poet. Had Kertes been Serb or Romanian, his work would likely not be too different; had Migjeni been Albanian or Greek, his work would likely be quite different. Nikola 21:18, 26 November 2005 (UTC)
So, please find some Migjeni's quotes which clarifies that his poetry has relevant relation with Serbian culture. But, please, don't quote something which can be similar to the proof that Miloš Crnjanski was Indonesian writer because he wrote the poem "Sumatra". --millosh (talk (sr:)) 12:06, 27 November 2005 (UTC)
I don't think I could do that, however could you point to some relevant research which points to the opposite? By the way, had Crnjanski have a Sumatran father, that poem would be relevant. Nikola 08:01, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Robert Elsie's work is more then relevant. Also, I think that you consider that Sándor Petőfi was also a great Serbian poet. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 13:37, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
Not sure that I agree, however, I'll change it to "Albanian poet of Serbian origin" until we have a definite reference. Nikola 22:10, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
It is explained inside of the first paragraph. Or you don't count his mother's side? It should be written that he is "half of Serbian and half of Albanian origin", but this is explained inside of the first sentence a little bit better. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 22:17, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

(Similar situations are with a number of Hungarians by ethnicity who are Serbian cultural workers. It is very questionable what are their relations with Hungarian culture.) So, it is not so related to Migjeni's work and can be treated as anti-Albanian propaganda. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 11:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Other changes are welcome, but keep in mind that all present informations have origin in the work of one important albanologist and that all changes should have some background. (I'll add Robert's bibliography about Migjeni soon.) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 11:45, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] References

It is so hard to talk there. So, Migjeni is mentioned in two paragraphs three times in the reference which Nikola gave [1]:

Мистовић je постао "Мисто",[27] a књижевник Милош Ђока Николић je "Миђени". Тим акростихом: Ми-Ђе-Ни пошто је претходно "Ђоко" постао "Ђерђ" носилац je дискретно сачувао своје поријекло. "Миђени" je битољац, завршио je богословију, у прелазном периоду наставе са с-х на арбанашки у Враки био je краће вријеме учитељ као билингвиста и као православца народ прихвати.

and

Бесмислене су и превазиђене ситније грешке о Враки кроз штампу, на картама, као: "Хани Вракес" да je село: "Бељо Пашанин" умјесто Андрија "Бељо" Башановић; да у Враки има "3000" душа, "200" ђака; село "Гукај" мјесто Куле - арб. "Кулај"; "Рапа" умјесто Раш; "Гриба" умјесто Гриљ; "Враце" мјесто Врака (и то у El I, с. 111 ?); "Борлоч-Борит" за Борич; да je св. Јован ка Каменици, а "Раши Вогељ" je умјесто древнога Раша из 1416. Грешкице се и даље настављају, изворно неконтролисане, објављене или не, на примјер, да je Милош Ђока Николић - "Миђони" у акростиху - "Миђени" у албанизацији, књижевник, да je рођен у Враки, а рођен je у Скадру; тако и Коста М. Миличевић да je арбанашки умјесто српски сликар. Коста je рођен у Враки, а Милош за кратко био учитељ у Враки. "Лапсус" je да je у Враки 1933, остало "300 домова" умјесто да je од неисељених 50-60 домова до 1989. могло да се намножи тих "300 домова" (Љ. О. "Политикин свет" бр. 192, "Досије (Југо) Словени у Албанији", Београд, август 1989, с. 38).

  1. In the first paragraph author made Serbization of Migjeni's name without any reference. Maybe I would translate it in the same manner in Serbian (like "Leo Tolstoy"; in Russian "Лев" is translated with the Serbian word "Lav" etc.). So, this is not any kind of proof that Migjeni's name existed in the Serbian variant. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
    How do you know that it is Serbisation and not his original name? Nikola 14:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    I don't know. But you don't know, too. The person who made this article (about Vraka) doesn't know that. This is pure speculation and not scientific proof. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    Everything taken into account, we can conclude that the person who wrote the text did know. Nikola 09:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
    And where are references? I am not sure that person who wrote this knew Migjeni personaly. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
  2. In the first paragraph author said that Migjeni is Bitolian (in the clear meaining of the birth place). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
    No. It says "Migjeni is a Bitolan, finished theology..."; that is correct; according to the article that is correct, he did live in Bitola and finished theology there. "Bitolan" means "a resident of Bitola", not necessarily "one who is born in Bitola". Nikola 14:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    It is not well understandable from the text. "Bitlolan" can mean "born in Bitola", but also "lived in Bitola for a long time". This is everything but not clear scientific distinction. Also, according to this "fact", someone (maybe you?) claimed inside of this article that Migjeni was born in Bitola. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    No, it isn't. However, it doesn't invalidate rest of the text. I haven't added that. Nikola 09:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
    Claims inside of this article are confusing reader... --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
  3. In the second paragraph, author is trying to say that Migjeni is not born in Vraka, but in Skadar (???). --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
    Yes. He says "Mistakes continue; that [M.D.N.] was born in Vraka while he was born in Skadar"; again, according to the article that was true, he was really born in Skadar. Nikola 14:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    And where are proofs that he was born in Skadar? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    I don't know, if you don't think that Elsie is authoritative enough, remove that from the article. Nikola 09:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
    It was my mistake. I don't know where he is born and Robert didn't change this claim. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
  4. While doing this, author is saying (in Serbian transcription) that Migjeni's acronym was MigjOni and that MigjEni is Albanization of his acronym. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)
    No, he doesn't. He says "Milos Djoka Nikolic - Midjoni in acrostic" - he only says that the name could be abbreviated to Midjoni not that he actually used it. Nikola 14:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    He said that "Milos Djoka Nikolic - Midjoni is his acrostic, not that it may be. Author claimed that Migjeni's acronym was "MigjOni" even there are no proofs for such claim. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
    It is his acrostic, same way Mira is your acrostic. He doesn't say that Migjeni actually used Serbian version of the acrostic. Nikola 09:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
    Of course it is. But, I don't use my acronyme and Migjeni did. And he used only one acronyme. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

And I should trust to such claims? --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

No, and that's what the author says too!
By the way, knowing that both Serbs and Albanians inherit their fathers' last names, should I trust that Migjeni's last name and that of his father was Nikolla? Nikola 14:26, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
Don't trust, find proofs. We are not making poetry here, we are making encyclopedia. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:53, 4 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree that it would be the best if a primary source (a birth certificate, autobiography, whatever) would be found. As long as we don't have it, however, I believe that the text I offered is authoritative enough that we might include its claims in the article. Nikola 09:13, 5 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course. And one ethnologist claims in two paragraphs something and one albanologist claims different in "a little bit more" then two paragraphs. Also, I think that you can make a contact with the person who wrote the article about Vraka. Please, do it and give us more information about author's sources. (For example, Robert is very interested about claims of his family's origin from Bitola.) --millosh (talk (sr:)) 16:23, 5 December 2005 (UTC)

Also, if anyone need, I can translate whole paragraphs. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 01:17, 3 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] He was Albanian and a patriot

You could read about his life in detail here [2] (It's in Albanian). Some roughly translated excerpts from his sister Olga:

"Vraka eshte nje fshat nja dy ore larg Shkodres dhe perbehej atehere nga nja tetedhjete familje bujqish sllave, te varfer e te shfrytezuar gjer ne place; keto familje jane t’ardhura ketu prej kohesh e mbajne akoma gjuhen, zakonet e kostumet e tyre, si dhe shkollen, ne te cilen jepeshin mesimet ne gjuhen serbe. Ministria e dergoi Milloshin ne shkolle te shtetezuar qe t’i jepte mesimet tani ne gjuhen shqipe."
"Vraka was a village about two hours away from Shkodra and it was made up at the time of about eighteen slavic farmer families, poor and used to the marrow; these families had come there from a long time ago and still kept their language, customs and dresses, as well as their school, where studies were done in the Serbian language. The Ministry sent Millosh at the statelized school to teach them now in the Albanian language"
"Kur i erdhi rradha Milloshit emerimi per ketu, konsullata e Mbreterise Jugosllave ne Shkoder u perpoq edhe nje here t’ja kthente mendjen dhe e keshilloi perseri te shkonte ne Jugosllavi, ku mund te sherbente sip rift ne Banat ose te studionte teologji ne Beograd."
"When time came for Millosh to go there, the consulate of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia in Shkoder tried to change his mind and counseled him again to go to Yugoslavia, where he could server as a cleric in Banat or to study theology in Beograd."
"Mirepo Milloshi iu pergjegj me gjuhen e nje patrioti, duke thene se, si shqiptar qe ishte, deshironte te vihej ne sherbim te atdheut e te popullit te vet. Keshtu ngjau qe e regjistruan ne “librin e zi” te konsullates, dhe se motres me te vogel Olga Nikolles, qe studionte ne Sarajeve, ne klasen e fundit te Gjimnazit Real te Vajzave, i prene bursen ato dy muaj para matures, pa i dhene kurrfare shpjegimi."
"But Millosh responded in the language of a patriot, telling them, like an Albanian that he was, he wanted to serve his country and his people. So that's how they registered him in the "black book" of the consulate, and so to his small sister Olga Nikolla, that was studying in Sarajevo, the last year of Real Gymnazium of Girls, they cut the scholarship of the last two months, without any explanation."

That page has quite a few pictures which I imagine are in the public domain now if anyone is interested in bringing over here. Luli

Luli, please keep in mind that the text from the paragraph which begins with "With Migjeni, contemporary Albanian poetry begins its course..." is written by albanologist Robert Elsie, as well as information that his name as a young person was "Mirko" is also from Robert Elsie. This article is "a little" controversy and because of that, please, try to talk about your edits before you did it. And, please, wait for a while to hear comments. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 23:15, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Millosh was a Montenegrin from Albania

Not a serb, so you cetniks show some proof that his parents were born in Belgrade or something or just step off.

[edit] sketch

I'm disambiguating links to the article sketch, and this article refers to a "prose sketch". Are you sure this is the term you wish to use? I know nothing of Nikolla so for all I know it could be an appropriate term. In such a case I daresay you should start an appropriate article. --BigBlueFish 20:35, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] He was From Sestan

Millosh Gjergj Nikolla was from Shestani (Sestan: Serbian) it is a province of Tivar (BAR) Montenegro. It is situated on the banks of the Shkoder lake. His Family was from the mountains of Rumija. Nikolla is his albanian last name but Serbs/Montenegrins Forced the "IC" Suffix to all albanians in Bar and Ulqinj.

You mean Millosh's family was from sestan(montenegrin), which is in Bar(republic of montenegro), you have no proof his family was originally albanian, not that it matters, us montenegrins are practically slavic-speaking albanians anyways, but the point is Millosh himself was from Skadar and his family from Bar. Critikal1 10:03, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Do you people have anything productive to do with your time other than misinforming people? Where did you get that he was from Sestan? He was born in Shkodra, his forefathers came from Reka, Macedonia. They were Albanian Orthodox. I used a primary source for this, Luarasi's Biography of MIgjeni's life, which had the approval of MIgjeni's family. Obviously, Serb internet warriors are better at knowing Migjeni's origins than Migjeni's very own family. You people are a joke! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.156.29.189 (talk) 01:46, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Please can someone just revert the changes that were made by this serbian troll, as already stated I have an authorized biography of him done by his own brother in law, that says his forefathers were albanian orthodox from Reka, macedonia. The idiot that changed it said they were from montenegro migrated to reka then came back to skodra, of course there was no evidence offered for this. but please revert the changes. also, whoever is in charge of this article, could you please stop any editings unless proper documentation and proofs are offered. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.29.241 (talk) 01:52, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I took out all the undocumented facts, myself, so please whoever wrote the article don't allow any edits without them offering proof beforehand. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.71.29.241 (talk) 02:04, 28 March 2008 (UTC)