Talk:Milky Way/Archive 3

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Milky Way redirect: Compromise part deux

Here's an option: move this article to Milky Way Galaxy and redirect Milky Way to that article. At the top of that article create a notice:

Milky Way redirects here. For other uses see Milky Way (disambiguation).

Then create a new article of the sort: Earth-based observations of the Milky Way or similar title for User:Halfblue to pipe the articles that deal solely with the band of light. Everybody wins.

Thoughts?

Nondistinguished 14:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I think this is a strongly viable option which has good potential for consensus. I like it and it falls well within my range of acceptable outcomes. 67.166.145.20 14:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Problem. This ignores reference. Reference states the the thing we see in the sky is called "Milky Way", not "Earth-based observations of the Milky Way". Also star ships have not been invented, till then there is only one viewpiont we see the Milky Way from ;^).
Dispite that title this is the old option that I still like. I propose we have this:
  • point Milky Way to Milky Way (disambiguation).
  • move content about the scientific thing (based on theory and its relevant observations) we call the Milky Way or The Galaxy to Milky Way Galaxy (please note: Milky Way Galaxy it a creation of modern science. It does not have mythology or poetry (well maybe some post 1920's poetry) or other cutural names. Those all belong in the Milky Way (celestial) page).
  • create a page for the band of light in the sky at Milky Way (celestial).
  • add links at Milky Way (disambiguation) to Milky Way (celestial) and Milky Way Galaxy.
Halfblue 15:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't say that this ignores reference... it still uses "Milky Way" appropriately in the title, just in a longer sentence. :) I completely agree with your point about mythology and poetry... I'd reached the exact same conclusion myself. Either title for the article on the band of light would be fine with me. 67.166.145.20 15:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Why should Milky Way redirect to Milky Way Galaxy? Milky Way is the most common use of the term. I show around 40,000 hits in the scholarly literature for the term "Milky Way" that refers to the Galaxy, and less than 8,000 for "Milky Way Galaxy". And why would we create an article called Earth-based observations of the Milky Way when the only sources offered are interpretations of incredibly brief dicitonary entries? The current article can handle any sourced information concerning "Earth-based observations of the Milky Way", and if that content gets too big, then it can be split out into its own article. Of course, you could create Earth-based observations of the Milky Way without altering this article at all, but I don't see why. In any case, "Earth-based observations of the Milky Way" is a subset of the primary topic, "Milky Way" and doesn't change the status of this article in any way. —Viriditas | Talk 15:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Please read reference above as to why a Google search is not a "reliable source". WP:V states quite clearly what is a "reliable source" is. Halfblue 15:29, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
But a google search can give a better indication as to useage of two different terms for an object than could a single dictionary entry, or a single 1981 textbook. Also, I provided a source which only references astronomical abstracts, 83 of the first 100 articles that came up had "Milky Way" in the title of the paper, 3 of the first 100 had "Milky Way Galaxy" in the title, and the remaining 14 had a title which didn't include either term. This gives us 83 references in favour of "Milky Way" being the name of the article, and 3 in favour of "Milky Way Galaxy". That's in addition to the 40,000 vs. 8,000 that the google search revealed. So to merely state that "Milky Way Galaxy" must be the only term allowed, is ignoring the references that we've both put forward. I agree with Viriditas, that any discussion of the "Earth based obs of the Milky Way" should be on the main article unless it begins to overwhelm the main article - but the galaxy aspect takes precidence. Richard B 15:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
See below re: consideration of scholarly sources vs. those aimed at the amatuer... and the sources are more numerous than you suggest, they just haven't all yet been fully and properly cited. There's an encyclopedic entry referenced by Nondistinguished which provides strong support for this convention of formal terminology, as well as what appears to be a professional-quality award-winning website aimed at the amatuer astronomer that I have linked to previously. These sources explicity declare that there is a formal distinction of terminology for the pedantic, and also acknowledge that the common usage is simply "Milky Way" for either. They tend to use the formal terminology consisently. I believe there appears to be sufficient applicable precedent for this convention to provide a strong case that a Wikipedia article should treat the subject similarly. 67.166.145.20 16:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd be interested to see if this book follows a similar convention. The Wikipedia article on Pasachoff may also be worthy of consideration. He appears to be a noted author of astronomy books aimed at the target audience that I suggest we should address. 67.166.145.20 16:17, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
It is irrelevant whether or not there is a more formal name, since Wikipedia convention is to use the common (i.e. most recognizable) name for an object. When a single term, i.e. "Milky Way" can have more than one meaning, WP:DISAMBIG gives guidance about what should appear under that name. 76.231.189.193 16:14, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I will consult those guidelines more carefully, but from my understanding, the conventions aren't inconsistent with the conventions I propose. More experienced Wikipedians have made similar statements. I'll definitely review the guidelines closely, though, and bring back a more thoroughly reasoned analysis of my interpretation of them. If they convince me that the proposal is in substantial violation of the established guidelines, I'll moderate my position accordingly. 67.166.145.20 16:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't see anything there that shows compelling reason not to seriously consider this change, and debate its merits thoroughly. The advisory at the top of the page notes that these are guidelines, not written in stone, and the occasional exception should be allowed if circumstances warrant. Furthermore, it's not clear to me that the proposal under consideration would be an exception to those guidelines. It appears consistent with them to me. If the argument is that the most common usage of the term "Milky Way" is to refer to the galaxy and not the visual spectacle, I submit that this opinion may be context-dependent. It appears there are many among the amatuer astronomy community who consider that the band of light is the most common meaning of the term "Milky Way" when used alone, and the evidence that this terminology is taught as fact in undergraduate-level textbooks, and presented as such on professional websites devoted to amatuer astronomers and in major encyclopedic references, appears to often cause considerable misunderstandings between such astonomy buffs and those who have no professional reason to distinguish between the topics at all. It is a prominent visible feature of the night sky, of interest to stargazers, and this feature is not the same physical object as the galaxy, just as the sun is not the same physcial object as the solar system. Other prominent night sky features have articles for this audience, most notably articles on the constellations and common asterisms. I feel a similar treatment of this striking visual phenomenon, which is distinct from the Milky Way Galaxy itself, is well-deserved. 67.166.145.20 17:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's not pretend that the Milky Way is the same as the Solar System here. The Sun would be equivalent to the central bulge of the galaxy. We can see the rest of the solar system as point-like objects - the planets, asteroids etc. The vast majority of rest of the galaxy can be seen as a hazy band of unresolved stars - although much is obscured by dust lanes. We have an article about the solar system - and we have an article about a lot of the components of the solar system - as we do for many of the nearby stars in the galaxy. Richard B 18:08, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Just so you know, I'm not pretending, I'm stating an analogy that I believe has logical merit. Fair enough? :) My basis for this analogy includes the following: Most of the light we see in the solar system comes from the sun, and most of the light we see in the galaxy comes from the stars that comprise the Milky Way visual phenomenon. The sun comprises the vast majority of the mass of the solar system, and the stars that are contained within the hazy band of light we see comprise the the vast majority of the mass in the galaxy. The solar system includes components resolvable from earth that are not part of the sun, and the galaxy includes components resolvable from earth that are not part of the hazy band of light. From a distant frame of reference there is no significant gravitational difference between the sun and the solar system, and from a distant frame of referenc there is no significant gravitational difference between the stars visible as a hazy band of light and the galaxy as a whole. Based on these and other comparisons, I suggest that to equate the hazy band of light to be the same physical object as the galaxy is the functional equivalent, in the context of the proposed disambiguation, as to equate the sun to the solar system. I feel confident that this logic is iron-clad. Please feel free to attempt to show me that it can be refuted; I welcome the debate. 67.166.145.20 18:23, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK, Most of the light we see in the solar system does indeed come from the Sun - and the vast majority of the mass is from the Sun. No problems with that so far. There are many components resolvable from Earth - e.g. the planets, in the solar system but not within the Sun. Again, no issue with that. From a distant vantage-point, you'd only see the Sun. But Wikipedia generally only has a single article about other distant star systems with multiple components, even if those components are stars themselves - e.g. Capella is a 4-star system, but 1 article.
Now onto the galaxy. From our vantage-point on Earth, the vast majority of light from the galaxy comes from...the Sun. It's about 14 billion times brighter than the next brightest star, Sirius, which in turn is at least 2000 times brighter than stars at the limit of human vision. The vast majority of stars in the Milky Way appear *much* fainter than that. For instance, Proxima Centauri - the closest star to the Sun would be 3 trillion times fainter than Sirius if it were placed near the centre of the galaxy. From a distance, however, and we'd just see the galaxy. The majority of light coming from spiral arms, O-B associations, the galactic bulge most likely. We can't see all of them from Earth. Also, gravitationally, most of the mass in the galaxy is in stuff we can't even see. And we can't even see it from a distant viewpoint either. Note also that we have plenty of articles about components of the galaxy - Sun, Sirius, Deneb, Messier 42 ad nauseam, just like we have articles about components of the Solar System - Jupiter, [[ - but the band of light is simply the view of the visible extent of the galaxy itself. It isn't really a component - and it isn't resolvable - that's why it's a hazy band - it's more of a density distribution that we can see. Richard B 22:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. I concede the accuracy of the technical corrections, I was approximating to my best knowledge. Not sure how I feel that impacts my core argument... I'll sleep on that one. But just so you know, the most important/interesting reason I think the analogy is relevant is because in each case, the distinction between the two vanishes in some contexts but becomes clear in others, and I suggest that to judge one context as substantially more important than the other, and more worthy of inclusion as a separate article, seems to me like a value judgment as to the significance or insignificance of a particular frame of reference. This seems unfair, and not necessarily in line with what I understand to be Wikipedia best practices. Feel free to respond with further reasoning, but I probably won't have a chance to get back to you for a while. 67.166.145.20 22:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Scholarly literature may be a less appropriate source to consult than literature aimed at the amatuer astronomer and undergraduate level students. I submit that these sources more often disambiguate the two terms, and when they do, they do so consistently as we have maintained. For the purposes of a brief acknowledgement of the formal terminology when aimed at those audiences, I believe these sources carry more weight. I would think that the reason scholarly papers disambiguate less often is because scholars are more likely to know which meaning is intended by context, and not get confused. 67.166.145.20 15:36, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
P.S... this may give insight into my core claim. It's a pretty good statement of it in different terms from before. I submit that since this convention is used fairly consistently in such sources, including encyclopedia articles, there is a strong case that these are appropriate to consider when considering full article titles here. 67.166.145.20 15:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I see no reason not to go ahead and declare that, if we do end up moving the article, the best title to move it to would be Milky Way Galaxy. That can complete the official documentation of the proposal that the page be moved, with the clear understanding that this proposal will be hotly contested and that if consensus is not reached, the move will not occur. Is there objection to formal submission of the title "Milky Way Galaxy" as the destination we would like to move it to, if it ends up moving? No rush, but if there's no reason to wait, we might as well. 67.166.145.20 20:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Scholarly, academic, government, and amateur literature all predominantly refer to the "Galaxy" as the "Milky Way". I don't see any evidence that this page title should be changed, moved or altered; I see just the opposite. All of the available evidence shows that the article resides at the most common name, with a dab header at the top for other uses. I also don't see how changing the name of this article will improve Wikipedia's coverage of the topic. It's one thing to quote dictionary definitions, 1981 textbooks, and websites, but at the end of the day, the most current research and publications are the most relevant sources for determining usage. Now, we can all agree that many of these sources state that the term "Milky Way" does indeed, have two meanings: the band of milky-white light we see in the sky, and; the barred-spiral galaxy we call home. The former use of the term is generally used in the context of history and etymology, referring to the astronomical object we see with the naked eye from Earth; while the latter is used to refer to the Galaxy. We can all agree that on a dark night, the band of light seen stretching across the sky can be referred to as the Milky Way without necessarily talking about the Galaxy itself; after all, the name of the Galaxy derives its designation from this term, and it was used long before the mysteries of the Galaxy were partially revealed. And in the context of amateur astronomy, we can see that this name is still used, not to refer to the Galaxy in particular, but to the "grouping of stars, dust, and gas in our own galaxy". It is perfectly reasonable for the present article to include more information about this topic, and if that content grows to a point where it requires a new article, then we will split it off. I would suggest that anyone interested in writing about the "hazy band of gas and light" as seen from Earth, expand the current article with enough relevant text to justify creating a new one. —Viriditas | Talk 20:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
That seems reasonable to me. Your points are well stated as to what we can all agree on, and I thank you, very much, for taking the time to figure out just what these "weird" propositions and claims to verifiability were about. I'm not yet ready to concede that there isn't necessarily reason to move it if that's where consensus goes. I suggest that given the fact that, as you concede, many of these sources state that the term "Milky Way" does indeed have two meanings, some concession to that be made in the text of the article, as a nod to the fact that this precedence of language does exist and is used by some. I suggest that in the lead to the article, and perhaps in any existing or forthcoming content that pertains more to the nature of the "hazy band of gas and light", some effort be made to distinguish between the two concepts, while in the more techinical parts of the article, the use of "Milky Way" as a shorthand seems fine. I think that it should be regarded as a no-no to use the term "the galaxy" in cases where what is clearly meant by context is unambiguously the "hazy band of gas and light". How fair do these suggestions sound, individually and/or as a group? 67.166.145.20 21:07, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
My problem is with insisting on a technical distinction in the lede. Previously, Halfblue (and possibly others) added the following to the lede: The Milky Way, when observed from Earth's surface, is the hazy band of white light that is seen in the night sky, arching across the entire celestial sphere. It is composed of stars and other material lying within the galactic plane of our galaxy, the Milky Way Galaxy. The word galaxy (from the Ancient Greek γαλαξίας) means "milky". I don't have any issues with that material. This material, however, has some problems: Technically speaking, the term "Milky Way" alone should refer exclusively to the band of light in the night sky, while the term Milky Way Galaxy (or "the Galaxy") is the proper description for our galaxy. In practice, however, the intended meaning of the term is often clear from the context in which it is used, and the term "Milky Way" is routinely used to refer to either topic. I'm not sure the distinction is necessary or helpful. I would rather see more information about the historical use of the term and its use in amateur astronomy. I haven't seen any sources that insist on this technical distinction, although I admit that it makes sense. We're really not supposed to tell people how to use words per WP:NOT. —Viriditas | Talk 21:20, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Fair enough. The earlier opening you cite is something I found to be an acceptable level of acknowlegement of the convention, right in the first sentence. The one you object to was my clumsy but developing attempt to help put forward the part of the claim to verifiability that might make sense, in an effort to stave off uncontrollable edit war. I have no objection to jettisoning that particular formation of the proposed distinction, if the article opens in the balanced way you cite. If and when a split happens, of course, different conventions may be decided upon for the other article. 67.166.145.20 21:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Most of the previous opening material already appears in the second paragraph of the current lede. How would you change the current lede to your satisfaction? It appears natural and appropriate to refer to the Galaxy in the first paragraph, leaving the description of the term to the second paragraph, although I have no objection to improving the lede. Do you think that adding the "hazy band of white light" to the first paragraph is better than what we have now? I have no strong opinion on this matter, but I suggest that we think of the reader. If you feel a calling to rewrite the lead, by all means do just that, but please keep the Galaxy in mind as the primary topic. —Viriditas | Talk 22:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the article should open straight off with the precise first passage you quoted, that you say is acceptable, in the place of the current first sentence or two, with the first instances of each of the terms "Milky Way" and "Milky Way Galaxy" in bold. I can do that specific change, although I don't have the remaining energy today to improve the flow of the rest of the intro to match, as far as overall flow is concerned. Shall I alter the opening paragraph as I describe and leave it to others to pretty it up? If so, any preference as to whether I replace just the first sentence, or the first two sentences, with the quoted passage? If you'd rather the entire set of any modifications to the lead section be done as a piece, for flow, I think/hope I've articulated my proposal well enough to check in tomorrow and see if it meets with my approval. 67.166.145.20 22:21, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I've decided to go ahead and take a pass at it, and make some effort to show what I think is an acceptable level of compromise. My greatest concern is the first sentence, which I think I can phrase in a way that most should find acceptable, based on what you've told me... I'll make a few other minor disambiguation-of-terminology edits and try to make sure information isn't repeated unneccesarily or lost, with the understanding that some cleanup/rearrangement/stylistic choices will probably need to be tweaked with. I think the first sentence is what's most important to ensure that the stated disambiguity concerns are met. I'll do that, then crash. 67.166.145.20 23:04, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Done. I think the text of the first two sentences should be left as is for now. My other changes are just my opinion of what flows best and is pretty consistent with textbook terminology. Later. 67.166.145.20 23:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Some mods made to the intro re: WP:LEAD and redundancy.

Re: using Google to find a correct usage of a term. If you search "America Under Attack" you get 85,900 hits[1]. If you search "United States Under Attack" you get 4,100 hits[2]. That is the pitfall of trying to use Google searches to define a term. People use shorthand like "America" when they actualy mean "United States". You just can't use a Google search to define a term (and did I say its Original Research?)

Re:Two articles describing the same thing? We have example such as Aurora (astronomy) / St. Elmo's fire / Plasma... Rainbow / Refraction. Halfblue 03:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Halfblue, several editors (including myself) have previously addressed your concerns about Google searches. Again, the links to Google search results concerning "Milky Way" are not links to web searches as you have offered above; they are links to restricted searches of books and scholarly papers. —Viriditas | Talk 07:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Viriditas, is does not matter where you search. It is how you search that is the problem. And no such search supercedes reliable sources. A search can olny find more reliable sources. Reliable sources are pretty clear at this point. Halfblue 13:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I've already provided the Wikipedia links above explaining how searches are used to determine usage, notability, and article names. I'm not sure how much more help can I offer you. —Viriditas | Talk 05:16, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Furthmore: A raw Google Scholar search gives us 40,800 hits for the title "milky way" and 118,000 for "the Galaxy". By that resault the problem is solved, we have a second article called "The Galaxy" Halfblue 13:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense. There is no evidence that the term "the Galaxy" refers to the "Milky Way" in every instance that you refer to; it may well refer to different galaxies. On the other hand, the term "Milky Way" refers to "the Galaxy" when used in that context. I hope that clears things up. —Viriditas | Talk 07:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Okay. I've slept on it, and I have some new ideas and positions. I will attempt to improve my ability to present them in an organized and concise manner. It will take some time for me to do so. I ask for patience.

I believe that the current presentation of the article represents the closest thing we have to a stable consensus right now. It's not perfect, but it's a start. Improvements are possible that can address the concerns of all parties.

I'll formally present my ideas soon, once I am confident I can do so in a competent fashion. 67.166.145.20 12:39, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Please consult with WikiProject Astronomy. You are invited to present your ideas here. —Viriditas | Talk 05:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for the link. I will check it out and attempt to present my ideas there when I feel ready/competent to do so. 67.166.145.20 09:54, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Down to basics

I recognize that my inexperience has resulted in some difficulties of presentation and appropriateness of content to this talk page. However, my contributions have been made in light of the two following priorities, which I think we can all agree on:

  • A stable, accurate, high-quality article
  • A civil, productive discussion about how to achieve that end

I found the previous state of affairs highly unsatisfactory on both levels, felt positioned to act, and felt obligated to do so despite my inexperience. If that choice has offended anyone, I apologize.

To the matter at hand:

I feel some tension has been resolved by the acknowledgement that there does exist, in some relevant contexts, cause to disambiguate between the Galaxy and its visual characteristics. Some positive initial action has been taken to address this, and that's good.

For clarity of discussion here, I suggest that we take care to make clear what definition of the term "Milky Way" we are talking about at any given time so that everyone can understand what we mean. To that end, I suggest that we avoid usage of the term "Milky Way" in isolation, as that term means different things to different people. If we mean the Galaxy, we should say the Galaxy. If we mean its visual characteristics, we should refer to them as its visual characteristics. It is my judgment that these terms will be the least volatile and most clear.

On reflection, I have concluded the following:

  • We should defer to those who have put time and energy into this article on whether the amount of content warrants a split into a second article. I have some ideas for additional content to work toward that eventual goal, and present a more balanced but accurate article, in the tradition of scientific accuracy that reflects the article's current focus.
  • As is, this article is about The Galaxy and its Visual Characteristics. Taken together, these topics are the primary meaning of the term "Milky Way." Considered separately, its not clear to me that there is a primary topic, but if there is one, I think it's probably the Galaxy. With this in mind, it is clear that the link to "Milky Way" should point to this article, in its current form.
  • The primary focus of this article, however, is currently on the Galaxy. As such, "Milky Way Galaxy" may be a more appropriate article title. As long as the link to "Milky Way" redirects to this article, it seems to me that the only effect of this change will be the article's title. I believe there may be cause to do so at this time, and feel this option warrants further discussion, as long as we can keep such discussion civil and productive.

That's where I stand. Thoughts? 67.166.145.20 15:11, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

These issues have already been addressed in previous discussions above and there is no reason to move the article as it currently resides at the most common name. I see that you and another user have recently added "Galaxy" to the occurrence of every use of the term "Milky Way" in this article. Not only isn't that necessary, but it's not how the term is used in the academic literature, and when it is used, it often appears lower case and it is usually only used once to introduce the subject and is dropped subsequently. I'm going to remove the repeated use of this term from the article. —Viriditas | Talk 05:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the full name was overused. Some level of balance should be strived for in that, for purposes of flow and readability. I appreciate your reasons for these edits.
RE: your restoration of the parenthetical clause I had removed. I agree that the word "Galaxy" is derived from "Milky Circle", and that this is directly relevant to this article. However, I contend while it is sometimes (often) permissible/acceptable/advisable to use the shortened term "Milky Way" to refer to the Galaxy, the term "Galaxy" should not be used to refer to the visual characteristics alone, and it seems clear to me that the term "Milky Way" is used in the context of these visual characteristics in the opening sentence. A solution to this dilemma must be found. 67.166.145.20 09:50, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I am familiarizing myself with the improved versions of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOR. These articles are much easier for me to follow in their present form, and I believe I perceive a solution that more accurately represents the state and level of controversy, and reflects these essential guidelines. I ask a little more time to formulate it completely and properly; I'm new at this, and I want to make sure to get this right. I think I can provide a revision to the lead that will be superior to the current version for all concerned. 67.166.145.20 12:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

I've added a template to the page which I believe is a better way to represent the lack of consensus than a proposal to change the name. Although I still think such a move would be a good idea, I now realize, based on my increased understanding of the relevant policies, that such a move is probably premature at this particular time. I am willing to abandon the proposal to move the page for the moment, but I am not opposed to such proposals and realize they may be reopened by others. 67.166.145.20 13:18, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The final paragraph represents the exact claim I have clumsily tried to argue for. My only additional claim is that in light of this, and in light of simple logic, "The Galaxy" should not be used when the intended context clearly refers exclusively to the visual phenomenon. Full post-mortem to follow, for future instructional purposes as to how such polarized conflicts can be avoided. After that, my work here is done. 67.166.145.20 15:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Post-Mortem

There have been a lot of errors of miscommunication over the past days, some of them mine. My primary fallacy has been to argue what I see as Halfblue's verifiable claim regarding terminology, using that same terminology. I have a tendency to exclusively prefer an explicit, formal definition over a more generalized, commonly used definition, and I suspect Halfblue may share this tendency. This may or may not be consistent with Wikipedia naming conventions; I lack sufficient understanding of these conventions to be sure. My additional fallacy was to adopt this personal preference for explicitly stated definitions over commonly held definitions as a fundamental truth about "proper terminology"; this is my own bias which has now been revealed to me. As a result, the following comedy of errors occurred:

From my perspective: Halfblue and I would say: "Look, the galaxy itself is not precisely the same object as its visible characteristics when viewed from Earth!" To which others would respond, "That's ridiculous; they are the exact same thing. The galaxy's visual appearance from Earth is exactly equivalent to the galaxy itself." We would reject this notion as trivially false, and the debate would go round and round.

From my improved understanding of the opposed perspective: Halfblue and I would state, "The Milky Way is not an acceptable term with which to refer to the galaxy!" to which the natural reply would be "Of course it is!! It's the most commonly used term to refer to the galaxy!!" Our seemingly outlandish claim would be rejected as trivially false, and the debate would go round and round.

My passionate attempts to clear up this misunderstanding originated from my extreme distaste for A) the severe instablility of the article, B) the poor quality that resulted from this instability, and C) the highly unpleasant atmosphere on the talk page. I was not fully aware, due to my own blind spot in this matter, that my efforts to clear up this misunderstanding might have contributed to precisely the unpleasant atmosphere which I was committed to dispel. I attributed any personal contribution I might have made to this unpleasant atmosphere to my inability to accurately communicate what I meant, to which I would respond by trying harder.

My efforts were also motivated by an attempt to shed light on what I perceive as a systemic bias held by some in this community. My passion for this cause was similarly fueled by my commitment to resolve miscommunications.

These personal biases, tendencies, and passions I possess are largely due to the fact that I happen to have Asperger's Syndrome. People with this type of neurology tend to experience great difficulties with practical interpersonal communication, and often experience substantial frustration as a result, on a continuing basis. I mention this not to be inappropriately personal, nor to excuse my own genuine mistakes, nor to seek any kind of sympathy (I accept my condition as a natural part of who I am, and often perceive such expressions of sympathy as unwarranted and unwelcome) , but merely to illustrate my belief that sometimes, a person's perceived stubbornness may have causes that are not immediately obvious, and oversimplification of such behavior as "willful refusal to understand" can often be harmful to oneself and others.

I have found this entire experience to be highly challenging, deeply rewarding, and intensely positive. To those who have had a dissimilar experience of these events, I offer my sincerest apologies for my part in that. To each and every person who has engaged with me in this discussion, I offer my deepest thanks, from the bottom of my heart, for the chance to challenge myself in this way and improve my ability to communicate clearly. I have strengthened and grown as a person as a result. Words cannot adequately describe how sincere I am in these statements.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled Wikipedia. 67.166.145.20 17:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Naming conventions

It seems to me that moving this article to Milky Way Galaxy shouldn't be that controversial. True, many people drop the "Galaxy" as redundant, but many also do the same with Andromeda Galaxy. I don't think we need to resolve at this time whether there should be a separate article for the band of light. We can probably get away with pipe-linking to the appropriate section within the main article until such a time as there is too much content and a fork should be initiated. Thoughts? Nondistinguished 20:42, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

But why bother doing that? The common name approach would suggest "Milky Way" is the appropriate title. You can't drop the "Galaxy" from "Andromeda Galaxy", because Andromeda is a constellation - the galaxy is named after where it is in the sky. And I would also suspect "common name" useage to give "Andromeda Galaxy". "Milky Way Galaxy" already redirects to "Milky Way", so there's no real point in moving. Richard B 22:36, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
The common name approach does not superceed reliable sources. Those sources already give us the name of the band of light in the sky "Milky Way", and the name of the Galaxy "Milky Way Gallaxy" or simply "The Galaxy". Not only can you "not drop the "Galaxy" from "Andromeda Galaxy", because Andromeda is a constellation", you can you not drop the "Galaxy" from "Milky Way", because "Milky Way" is a band of light in the sky. Halfblue 12:14, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The common name does actually superceed the technically correct name for article titles. As has been pointed out to you several times, the two are the same thing - the band of light is just the Milky Way as viewed from Earth. It's effectively a density distribution of unresolved stars, largely in the spiral arms and galactic bulge. As others have pointed out, the half-degree-wide circle of light that you see during the daytime when it's not cloudy is the Sun. It's a star which appears to us on Earth as a bright disc. We don't (and rightly so) have articles on the visual phenomenon of the bright disc. Richard B 13:02, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
The problem is your not following through with even identifying the common name. "Search engines are sophisticated research tools, but often have bias and results need to be interpreted. It can be worked round but you need to know what you're doing" (Wikipedia:Search engine test). If you search "Milky Way" in Google Scholar" you have to then interpret what the author meant in those titles. If you asked every one of those authors "Do you mean within the confines of the band of light" they would say "no, I mean "The Milky Way Galaxy" "Hit count numbers alone can only rarely "prove" anything about notability, without further discussion of the type of hits, what's been searched for, how it was searched, and what interpetation to give the results. On the other hand, examining the types of hit arising (or their lack) often does provide useful information related to notability" Halfblue 13:55, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
We have discussed this several times. The majority of publications use the term "Milky Way" to refer to the galaxy. When relying upon sources, we make sure we use the most authoritative and current ones. A single textbook from 1981 does not suffice, nor could it. And, a personal website does not meet our requirements. —Viriditas | Talk 15:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the reason for moving to Milky Way Galaxy might be best understood by considering the naming conventions listed for galaxies. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (astronomical objects)#Galaxies. I understand that some may consider the Milky Way to be a special case, but I think that it is better in terms of being particular to make sure people understand that it is a galaxy in the name. Nondistinguished 13:31, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
People understand it just fine. "Milky Way" is the very translation of "Galaxy". There's no need to call the article "Galaxy Galaxy". —Viriditas | Talk 15:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
"Milky Way" is the translation of "Via Galactica". There is no translation of "Galaxy". Nondistinguished 17:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm referring to Ptolemy's use of galaktikos kyklos, which is close enough for my purposes. —Viriditas | Talk 17:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Many readers at Wikipedia probably will not know that the term "galaxy" is derived from the Milky Way. It's not exactly common knowledge. Nondistinguished 19:53, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Recent changes

By reference we should either have an article that is:

  • A) A one topic two description article where we describe the Milky Way as seen in the night sky and follow on to describe the Galaxy (as supported by the eSky source and The Cambridge Encyclopidia Of Astronomy)

or

  • B) Two articles for each thing where we disambiguate link to them (supported by Contemporary Astronomy / Jay M. Pasachoff and the OED).

I have made edits that follow the first course (and consensus). A split and disabigulation of the article may still be a prefereable course of action Halfblue 14:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted your changes. Please take your concerns to the WikiProject Astronomy talk page linked above. "eSky" is a personal website; Pasachoff's textbook is from 1981 (!) and the convention he follows is not subscribed to by most textbooks. I don't know what edition of the Cambridge Encyclopidia of Astronomy you are quoting, but the 1999 Cambridge Concise History of Astronomy does not use the convention you refer to above, nor does the 2007 Encyclopedia of the Solar System, nor do thousands of scholarly papers published within the last seven years.[3]. —Viriditas | Talk 15:59, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
In the interests of collaboration, I'm going to revert back to your version in good faith to see how others deal with it, even though I am opposed to it. —Viriditas | Talk 16:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with Halfblue's actions too. The primary description should be of the galaxy and not of the Milky Way as seen in the night sky. Nondistinguished 17:20, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I have reverted back to a previous version. We need to start from the better version if we are going to get anywhere. I thought we'd already resolved this. Nondistinguished 17:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Option A) above is not a resolved consensus. Looking at the request for comments above, there are several comments that agree with A and several comments that say that the galaxy is the important part of the subject, and should come first. Personally, I don't care what section comes first, but the lead must have a good summary of all of the important issues about the galaxy we live in. The galaxy-focused lead that integrates information about the observation of and the physical characteristics of the galaxy is far preferable to the various truncated leads. However, the 4th paragraph in the current version [4] needs to go. A detailed discussion of usage (which that paragraph is not) belongs in a section of the article, not in its lead.

Also, User:Halfblue, you can't say that a certain source supports separate articles or a single article. How many articles a subject needs to cover it is a function of how much information there is on Wikipedia about it, and this is expected to change with time. There are families of organisms with common articles and no species articles, and tons of articles about specific species. There is not one correct answer to how much should be covered in an article. An article's scope is contingent on how much information has been written on wikipedia and the best way to organize that information. Enuja (talk) 18:32, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

What about moving the fourth paragraph to a footnote? This follows how the Solar System article deals with the issue of capitalization of the term "Solar System". I tried to do so myself but encountered technical difficulties. 67.166.145.20 14:47, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Also... I disagree with A), with the article as it currently stands. Most of the content of the article is currently about the galaxy and the lead should reflect that, unless/until the article is expanded to the point where the physical galaxy is no longer the primary topic. I don't know that that would ever happen. It does need more balance, though... as is, the structure doesn't seem to reflect the new and improved version of WP:NPOV. Perhaps merging the Milky Way (mythology) article back into this one would address this. As has been noted, any mythology is about the band of light, not the galaxy. That's just one suggestion I'm throwing out there, though, and I'm not attached to it. I encourage all editors to revisit WP:NPOV and review it carefully; it seems to me that this policy has been rewritten substantially, and it seems more clear now how it applies to this current situation. 67.166.145.20 14:58, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to let people know that I spent the day researching this matter on the UC Davis campus. I hit the bookstore, the main library, and the physics and engineering library. I have four additional sources to support this convention of terminology, all superior to what's been provided so far. One brand new textbook for this year's class, one textbook from the mid-90's, the 1998 Encyclopedia Britannica, and the 2000 Petersen Field Guide to the Stars and Planets. It'll take some time to type up and present the information. From 2 of those sources I have just the explicit definition as laid out in the texts; from the other 2, I have that plus every other usage of the terms "Milky Way" or "Milky Way Galaxy" in the texts. It all strongly supports this convention of terminology. I'm not sure how much people want, but I wanted to be on the safe side and get as much as I could. It'll be a while before I have the full citation details properly organized and prepared; that part is very difficult for me. I'll work on that and then check back to see whether people just want the definitions from each source, or all the bells and whistles. Back in a while. 67.166.145.20 22:51, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

But is this convention actually used? From looking at the astronomical literature, it appears the answer is no. It's also the opinion of a select group of authors, rather than a standard embraced by the entire astronomical community. —Viriditas | Talk 04:44, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
To me, the level of widespread usage of the convention is orthogonal to the possible general acceptance of the existence of the convention. Even Pasachoff, once in thirteen relevant passages in the field guide (by my count), does find occasion to use the shortened "Milky Way" to refer to the galaxy. Specifically, on p. 171 of the field guide: "The Milky Way is only one of millions of galaxies in the universe."
This seems to me to illustrate an important point. I don't perceive that anyone has claimed that it is unacceptable to use the short term "Milky Way" to refer to the galaxy. It is often convenient to use the short term in that context, and it's common practice. Even many of the sources that explicitly explain the difference acknowledge, in the next sentence, that the short term is commonly used in either case. I don't perceive that as being in dispute. To me it seems clear that the convention exists, and that many who don't formally use it in academic practice might still readily acknowledge its existence if questioned, and acknowledge that there is a convention. It also seems clear that although it should be an acceptable editorial choice to refer to the galaxy as simply "The Milky Way", it should not be an acceptable editorial choice to refer to the visual phenomenon as "the galaxy." My judgment is that this is a convention used by a significant minority, per WP:NPOV, and that Jay Pasachoff qualifies as a "prominent adherent."
I also find it notable that those who adhere to this convention are those who author works intended for an audience that may have no initial familiarity with the concepts. As Wikipedia is intended for a wide audience, and not merely the well-informed or highly-educated, this seems significant. 67.166.145.20 13:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

On Nomenclature

When a college level text book states: "Don’t be confused by terminology: the Milky Way itself is a band of light that we can see from the Earth, and the Milky Way Galaxy is composed of a hundred billion stars plus many different types of gas, dust, planets, etc. The Milky Way is that part of the Milky Way Galaxy that we can see with the naked eye in our night time sky". -- (Contemporary Astronomy - Second Edition, by Jay M. Pasachoff, P.414), that is a statement of nomenclature. Nomenclature, if it is established, is not to be ignored or discounted. Scientific Nomenclature is a primary way of determining articles titles and subjects (Wikipedia:Naming conflict). Any claims that nomenclature has changed need to be supported by reference. Nomenclature is not established via Googling (unless you come across articles that specifically deal with nomenclature). On line sources seem to be following this nomenclature, differentiating between one "thing", Milky Way, and a second "thing", Milky Way Galaxy [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] (please also refer to Talk:Milky Way#Additional Sources). Searches on Google Scholar are currently being used in a biased non-neutral interpretation (something that should be specifically avoided re:Wikipedia:Search engine test#Search engine tests and Wikipedia policies ---> Neutrality). The bias comes from failure to properly intemperate the results (in fact no interpretation is being used at all, the editors are simply doing a word count, counter to Wikipedia:Search engine test#Search engine tests and Wikipedia policies ---> Notability). This brings in a bias along the following lines:

  • Failures to consider skew caused by what field of studies publish papers – astrophysics and cosmology are very large fields. Observational astronomy is not a scholarly pursuit and is practically non-existent as any kind of discipline; therefore very few papers about the visual phenomenon “Milky Way” will exist.
  • Failure to consider how titles are worded. When you see an overwhelming number of papers titled "New York"[15] that refer to the city it is wrong to assume that New York State has ceased to exist as an entity. (BTW, New York City and New York is a good example of two articles that describe a thing and a portion of a thing that share the same name).

So far the opinions expressed by editors above are just that, opinions, and not a basis for creating or structuring an article re: WP:V and WP:NPOV. Actual reference have to be cited, not opinion. The International Astronomical Union may be a definitive source on this but I can't find a reference. Sky feature nomenclature may fall outside their bailiwick of naming radiating and non-radiating bodies, (also Pluto might have them rattled ;^)) Halfblue 16:11, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

And references to scientists using "Milky Way" to mean the galaxy in their professional work shouldn't be ignored either. At best, what has been shown is that people who choose to draw a naming distinction between the band of light and the galaxy often do so by differentiating between the terms "Milky Way Galaxy" and "Milky Way". However, that isn't the same as demonstrating that the others who refer to the galaxy as the "Milky Way" are wrong (and the latter usage may even be more common). If this article is going to describe both entities, it also doesn't strongly bear on the structure of the presentation. I would still argue that the galaxy is the more significant term and thus in a combined article deserves the focus. 76.231.189.193 16:43, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree with just about all of this. I think the impact on structure of presentation is non-negligible, but that appears to me to have been satisfactorily addressed by the recent edits by Jengod. I hope it's clear that it was never my intent to claim that those who refer to the galaxy as the "Milky Way" are wrong. I have not and do not agree with any such claim. 67.166.145.20 17:39, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
I can find plenty of recently published, observational astronomy books that use the term "Milky Way" to refer to the Galaxy, such as Springer's Astronomy of the Milky Way (2004) by Mike Inglis and Cambridge University Press's Observing the Universe: A Guide to Observational Astronomy and Planetary Science (2004) by W. Alan Cooper and Andrew Norton. Then there are books that use both conventions to represent the galaxy, such as Cambridge University Press's Observational Astronomy (2006) by Birney et al. —Viriditas | Talk 19:47, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Yep. Lots of sources call the galaxy simply "Milky Way," or only use the full "Milky Way Galaxy" intermittently. No argument there. To me, this seems most likely to be simply a matter of editorial choice on the part of those authors, and not a refutation of the formal nomenclature. It's widely accepted practice to use the simple term "Milky Way" in either context. This doesn't mean that the more formal nomenclature is no longer valid, merely that many don't find it necessary to use it in practice. As was pointed out above, it's like just saying "New York" when you mean "New York City", because it's expected that people will know what you mean. But really, it could mean either "New York City" or "New York State", and there's a convention of nomenclature to distinguish between them when ambiguity is possible. That's all. 67.166.145.20 04:22, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I strongly support 67.166.145.20's views. I think that a band of light in the sky is different from our Galaxy as a dental X-ray (some teeth) is different from the dentition.
Commons:category:Milky Way is a Wikimedia Commons category with images related to the band of light. It is categorized in Commons:category:Milky Way Galaxy, and in the 16 constellations where you can observe the band of light. Then there are 88 constellations in the sky.
I remind that the Solar System is inside the Milky Way Galaxy (Commons link, more secure), though far from its center (8.6 kpc). Hence, we can observe stars of the Milky Way Galaxy in the whole sky, that is the 88 constellations of the sky.
So, the present confusion between “Milky Way” and “Milky Way Galaxy” maintains a major misunderstanding about our universe. --Juiced lemon 11:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. I think one good addition to the article, on the topic of the band of light, would be a list of the 16 constellations which the band of light passes through, in sequential order. I would be interested in such information as a reader of this article. 67.166.145.20 13:25, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I think Juiced lemon brings up a very important point: every single (non-supernova) star we see with the naked eye, belongs to the Milky Way Galaxy, but may be nowhere near the Milky Way (band of light) in the sky. The Galaxy, as seen from Earth, is literally all around us. Implicitly identifying the band with the galaxy, by covering both in a single article, thus seems particularly inappropriate. Hqb 16:32, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
In identifying the band with the galaxy, one must remember that it's effectively a density map of the galaxy. The brightest bits (the plane of the galaxy) are naked eye visible from a dark sky. I suspect that if you have sensitive measuring equipment, you'd still be able to detect a (very faint) glow from unresolved stars outside of the main band of the Milky Way. That doesn't mean that it's not there. From many places on Earth, the Milky Way band is not visible at all due to light pollution - doesn't mean it's not there though. Of course the density of stars in a non-spherical object that we're not at the centre of is not spherically symmetrical around the Earth. It is, however, our view of the galaxy. It's obvious that the brightest bits, that is, the bits with the highest surface brightness, show up best. The galaxy is all around us, but there's more of it around us in certain directions. I'm sure that you'd find that the surface brightness would closely be related to the amount of galaxy that exists in that direction. In the direction of the galactic pole, there's only a few hundred parsecs to go before the star density gets very low indeed. In the direction of the galactic centre, there's a few tens of kiloparsecs. We're identifying the band with the galaxy, because that's what it is... Richard B 17:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm really impressed with your knowledge of the nature of the physics behind the band of light, Richard B. The information you've shared about why it looks the way it does sounds like particularly interesting material for expanding our coverage of the visual phenomenon... why does it look the way it does? What causes this particular striking visual effect? There seems to be quite a lot of room for expansion.
It is now clearer to me, per WP:Content forking, that at least for now, it is ideal to cover all aspects of the Milky Way in a single article. As long as the treatments of the various aspects of the topic are interwoven throughout the article and not segregated into sections that may imply which aspects are "more important", then a single-article comprehensive coverage seems best, given current Wikipedia policies and guidelines. That's why I suggested merging Milky Way (mythology) back here; that may have been an unintentional content fork, in retrospect. (To be fair, this wasn't my idea; it was suggested to me by an anonymous supporter.)
I look forward to seeing how the article improves. 67.166.145.20 18:23, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Oh, one more thing... I want to make it clear that I have never supported any claims that the Galaxy is "not there" or that it's "less real" than the band of light. (Nor vice versa, for that matter... they are equally "there" and "real" in my opinion, just in different contexts.) I have consistently cautioned Halfblue against any such claims, throughout this discussion. What I have consistently tried to support is Halfblue's verifiable claim regarding nomenclature, and that there is a difference between the density map of the galaxy and the galaxy itself. I hope that makes things clearer for you, Richard B. I think most of us really are saying the same things, more or less, just in different ways. 67.166.145.20 18:55, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Additional Sources

Freedman, Roger A. & Kaufmann, William J. (2007). Universe. WH Freeman & Co., p. 600. ISBN 0-7167-8584-6

On a clear, moonless night, away from the glare of city lights, you can often see a hazy, luminous band stretching across the sky. This band, called the Milky Way, extends all the way around the celestial sphere. ... Today, we realize that the Milky Way is actually a disk tens of thousands of parsecs across containing hundreds of bilions of stars -- one of which is our own Sun -- as well as vast quantities of gas and dust. This vast assemblage of matter is collectively called the Milky Way Galaxy.

"Milky Way Galaxy". Encyclopedia Britannica 8. (1998). Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.

Milky Way Galaxy, large disk-shaped system of stars and interstellar matter of which the Sun is a component. It includes the multitude of stars whose light produces the Milky Way, the highly irregular luminous band that encircles the sky. This band of starlight lies roughly in the plane of the galactic disk.

"Galaxies -- Milky Way Galaxy". Encyclopedia Britannica 19. (1998). Encyclopedia Britannica, Inc.

The Milky Way Galaxy, sometimes simply called the Galaxy, is a spiral system consisting of several billion stars, one of which is the Sun. It takes its name from the Milky Way, the irregular luminous band of stars and gas clouds that stretches across the sky.

Pasachoff, Jay M. (1994). Astronomy: From the Earth to the Universe. Harcourt School, p. 500. ISBN 0-03-001667-3

Don't be confused by the terminology: the Milky Way itself is the band of light that we can see from the earth, and the Milky Way Galaxy is the whole galaxy in which we live. Like other galaxies, our Milky Way Galaxy is composed of perhaps a trillion stars plus many different types of gas, dust, planets, etc. The Milky Way is that part of the Milky Way Galaxy that we can see with the naked eye in our nighttime sky.

Pasachoff, Jay M. (1999). A Field Guide to the Stars and Planets. Houghton Mifflin, pp. 168-169. ISBN 0-395-93432-X

The galaxy we live in, which includes about a trillion (a thousand billion) stars, is called "The Milky Way Galaxy." ... People have long called the band of light that appears to cross the sky by the name the Milky Way because of its appearance; it is the Milky Way from which our galaxy draws its name.

I have more supporting material from the last two; much more from the last one. But that's the core of it.

Sorry for yet another big post; I didn't expect to find so much. I'll add these sources to the citation. 67.166.145.20 00:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Article structure

Currently the intro reads:

The Milky Way (a translation of the Latin Via Lactea, in turn derived from the Greek Γαλαξίας (Galaxias) sometimes referred to simply as "the Galaxy"), is a barred spiral galaxy that lies with the Local Group of galaxies neighborhood of the Universe. Although the Milky Way is one of billions of galaxies in the observable universe,[1] the Galaxy has special significance to humanity as it is the home galaxy of the planet Earth.
Some sources hold that, strictly speaking, the term "Milky Way" should refer exclusively to the band of light in the night sky, while the full name Milky Way Galaxy, or alternatively the Galaxy should be used to describe our galaxy as a whole.[2][3][4] It is unclear how widespread the usage of this convention is, however, and the term "Milky Way" is routinely used in either context.

The sections that follow this are:

  1. The view from here - About the band of light
  2. Size - About the galaxy
  3. Age
  4. Composition and structure - About the galaxy
    1. Galactic center
    2. Spiral arms
    3. Halo
    4. Sun's location
  5. Environment - About the Local Group and environment outside the galaxy
  6. Velocity - Relative motions of the galaxy
  7. History
    1. Etymology and beliefs - Perceptions of the band of light
    2. Discovery - Roughly about realizing the band of light are stars and part of a galaxy.

The intro (as of recently anyway) focuses on the galaxy, but is immediately followed by a section that focuses on the band of light and uses the term "Milky Way" to mean band of light. Then there are a set of sections dealing with galactic composition and structure. These could definitely be better organized, since "Size" is basically an aspect of its structure and there is seriously redundancy between "Size" and the intro to "Composition and structure". I would also suggest that "Sun's location" be broken out and a more general section on "Man's relationship to the Milky Way" be written that incorporates both the physical data on position and the information of appearance/perception (i.e. the view), possibly also incorporating the beliefs as a subheading. The section on "Discovery" also has a problem of using "Milky Way" in the two different senses without clearly delineating between them.

The Galaxy is already the more significant topic discussed here in terms of space allocated, but the "band of light" material has basically just been tacked on (at the very end and very beginning). If this is going to be a joint article, then I think it makes sense to begin the discussion by describing the large scale facts as they are know understood (i.e. as a galaxy) and then follow that with information on how that galaxy is percieved (e.g. as a band of light) and the history of the surrounding beliefs/understanding.

So, my proposed outline might look like:

  1. Composition and structure (With Size and Age folded into the intro portion)
    1. Galactic center
    2. Spiral arms
    3. Halo
  2. Extragalactic Environment
  3. Velocity
  4. Man's relationship to the Milky Way
    1. Position of the solar system
    2. Visual appearance of the Milky Way
    3. Etymology and beliefs
    4. History of scientific understanding

I also think it is bad that all the introductory images focus on the appearance and none show spiral structure.

76.231.189.193 19:41, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

I like the direction of this approach. This seems the right path toward a better, more comprehensive article. I have some personal differences of opinion about the optimal order of presentation, but those are just that, my opinions, and I trust that at this point the natural consensus process will lead us in the right direction. For what it's worth, my opinion on order of presentation is that what you propose as section 4 should be moved up to section 1. Such an approach seems to me to have an appealing flow. However, in order to get to the nitty-gritty scientific facts about the galactic structure more quickly, a bit of the "Man's Relationship" section should probably be separated out and included elsewhere... I would recommend separating out "Etymology and beliefs" and putting it at the end.
Also, I think a (very) brief mention of the band of light should be added to the first paragraph, for flow and readability of the lead. I'll take a stab at that now, and let others muck about with things from there. 67.166.145.20 21:59, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I see that a lot of discussion has ensued over the last month with regard to the nature of the Milky Way article. I'm so glad the article is still primarily about the galaxy. I'm all for the band of light definition being part of the introduction to this article. The historical context and the relationship that we have to this object, from our blue dot, is very important. In terms of structure of the article I think the original GA article is a good bases to start.
As for the first paragraph : "The Milky Way (a translation of the Latin Via Lactea, in turn derived from the Greek Γαλαξίας (Galaxias) sometimes referred to simply as "the Galaxy"), is a barred spiral galaxy that lies with the Local Group of galaxies neighborhood of the Universe, visible from Earth as a band of light in the night sky.", apart from the spelling mistake which I will correct now, I much prefer the introductory paragraphs of the original GA article. It includes the band of light and talks about it in a much more scientific fashion. Alisdair37 16:28, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
In fact upon correcting the spelling mistake I realise the whole first sentence does not make sense. I hesitate to correct it as others may have a view on the matter. Alisdair37 16:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Grammatically, it seems to more or less make sense, but it's very confusing. I think, at the very least, the stuff about the origins of the name should be demoted to the second sentence, rather than being placed in parentheses. I also think that the fact that it is our galaxy needs to be in the first sentence. A better opening paragraph might be:
The Milky Way is a moderately-sized spiral galaxy, notable chiefly because it is home to our own Sun and, of course, the planet Earth. Its name in English is a translation of the Latin Via Lactea, which in turn derives from the Greek Γαλαξίας (Galaxias). From the surface of the Earth, it appears as a band of diffuse light stretching across the night sky and visible to the naked eye from a dark location (some sources hold that, strictly speaking, the term "Milky Way" should refer exclusively to this band of light, and prefer the longer name Milky Way Galaxy, or simply the Galaxy—with the first letter capitalised—to describe our galaxy as a whole;[1][2][3] however, the term "Milky Way" is routinely used in either context[4]).
It can certainly be improved upon, but that's the best I can come up with at the moment, so I throw it out there for general comment. Cosmo0 20:06, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
I certainly can appreciate the need for such improvements in the lead. While I think the current version was a far better compromise than the previous situation, I agree that improvements can and should be made. Please be assured that, for my part, I do not impose any such improvements to the lead, as long as no important information is lost in the process, and I intend to limit my own future editorial work to improving the grammar and clarity of nomenclature of the article as it improves. Theindigowombat 23:43, 9 October 2007 (UTC) (The user formerly known as 67.166.145.20)
By the way, someone mentioned the need for an image focussing on the Milky Way as a galaxy rather than a band of light. Obviously there are no photographs of the Milky Way from outside the galaxy, but here is an artists impression based on observations. Anyone want to suggest if/where it should go in? Cosmo0 19:04, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Actually, I just looked at the reviewed version of the article and the image appears in there, but was apparently removed since. Cosmo0 19:08, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

GA status

This article appears to have undergone a massive amount of change and it may no longer satisfy the GA criteria. In particular there are numerous "citation needed" tags and there are several sections that are weakly cited or not at all. It's also not clear that the other GA criteria are still met. Should the GA status be stripped? Thanks. — RJH (talk) 15:45, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

It does appear to have undergone a lot of change and should probably be re-assessed at some point. Cosmo0 19:10, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree that the quality of the article needs to be much improved in order to retain its GA status. I hope that some time can be allowed to restore it to such a state, while retaining the necessary recent improvements regarding nomenclature. I also think there should be some more discussion about what guidelines of nomenclature should be followed within the text of the article itself, as a semi-official style guideline. Beyond such concerns of accuracy of nomenclature, however, I agree that something closer to the old GA version would be far preferable to the current level of detail and quality.
I happen to have in my possession a complete rewrite of a different version of the article which in many ways seems superior to both previous rated versions and to intermediate compromises. This was deposited in my documents folder on my system anonymously by a benign intruder when I was posting under my then-current IP address. I would happy to share this version as a stimulus to discussion, and to generate ideas. However, I'm unsure of the appropriate way to do so, both socially and techinically. If others wish to see this version, feel free to discuss it with me on my talk page and I'll try to find a good way to present this content to others. Theindigowombat 23:58, 9 October 2007 (UTC) (The user formerly known as 67.166.145.20)
I disagree. Your "complete rewrite" (which appears on your talk page) is merely a revised version of the aforementioned GA page, in which you have added "Milky Way Galaxy" in an attempt to change the name of the article. I suggest the entire article be reverted to the GA version and we go from there. —Viriditas | Talk 01:11, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
Nix that. I fulfilled all outstanding cite requests. Problem solved. —Viriditas | Talk 01:33, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
As I said on my talk page, I realized after I posted it there that the article was not as different as I thought it was when I first read it. My error was apparent to me once I saw it rendered as a Wiki page, and not as a simple text file. I acknowledged this misperception on my part on my talk page, and I apologize for not making a note of this here as well; I was attempting to reduce my activity level here to a more modest pace of contributions, and did not want to flood the page with my own activity again. I agree that a reversion to the GA version seems like a very good idea, and I would fully support it. The new information regarding nomenclature can be integrated fairly easily.
As for your conclusion regarding the goal I was attempting to attain, I would greatly prefer if you did not state such deductions as fact, as I find such statements upsetting. In fact my goal was to stimulate additional discussion about the degree to which the formal nomenclature should be adhered to in the text of a Wikipedia article, as I attempted to state earlier. While one possible outcome of such a discussion might be a name change, and while I would support such a change, I don't regard that as a particularly likely outcome at this point, and it's not a personal goal of mine anymore. My current concern is to establish a consensus for a consistent guide to nomenclature to be followed in the future, which would require additional discussion about the merits of using the formal nomenclature versus the more common term. This is primarily in regards to the usage of terms in the text of the article itself, although complete adherence to formal nomenclature would imply a change of title. I perceive reasonable arguments both for the common term and for the formal nomenclature, and believe it would be best to discuss the matter further. I do not wish to inappropriately dominate the discussion as I did last month, however, and would prefer to step back and give others a chance to weigh in on the matter. I would greatly appreciate it if you would assume good faith on my part as regards my honesty about my stated goals and intent. Thank you. Theindigowombat 05:32, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
I apologize if I made the above comments in haste. Upon careful consideration, I discovered an even more serious error on my part that may have confused the issue. I was incorrect about the source of the alternate version of the article when I discovered it in my documents folder; your feedback and reactions prompted me to reconsider some of my basic assumptions and I realized that it was simply a version of the article that I had saved during my earlier editorial work, then forgotten. I apologize for any confusion that this admittedly bizarre error on my part may have caused, and I can appreciate how this error may have contributed to some skepticism about my veracity. I humbly apologize for my oversensitivity to accusations of deceit. Thank you for helping to alert me to this error in my reasoning process. Theindigowombat 06:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)


Alternate version for consideration

As I mentioned above, an anonymous contributor left an alternate version of the Milky Way Galaxy article in my documents folder when I was posting unsecurely through my IP address. I have put this version up on my talk page as a stimulus to discussion and to generate ideas. I hope that some find it helpful. Please feel free to check it out at your convenience. Theindigowombat 12:26, 12 October 2007 (UTC) (The user formerly known as 67.166.145.20)

I was incorrect about the source of this version of the article. It was simply an earlier version of the article that I had saved, forgotten about, then rediscovered and took as evidence that my system had been accessed by someone other than myself. I apologize for any confusion and skepticism that this admittedly bizarre error on my part may have caused. Theindigowombat 06:34, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Visibility

I'm sure many people would be quite interested in the potential...photographability (word?) of the galaxy's center. I know I am, though I'm hardly a decent spokesperson for other popular-science-types. I've tried to do some research as far as how to go about explaining location, photographic technique, etc., but I'm wondering if a section on this should be included. "Are those photos taken from the locations they are because that location offers something specific, or will any dark place do?", "What's the exposure time/type of camera?", etc. These questions can be thus answered. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.3.13.191 (talk) 00:25, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

If you're interested in doing something along those lines, you may first want to take a look at the guidelines in WP:NOT#HOWTO. If what you're thinking of is more of a "how-to" guide then it might be more appropriate to put it in one of the other projects mentioned in the guidelines (such as Wikihow) and link to it from this article (I think that's possible although I've never tried it). Cosmo0 14:26, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Volume of the galaxy

Sorry if this is obvious to others, but I can't seem to find what units the galaxy volume is measured in, what is considered edge of the galaxy, and how the volume is calculated for the galaxy. --Mrg3105 03:00, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're referring to. I searched for 'volume' in the article and I can't find any reference to it. In any case, as you rightly said, defining a volume for the Galaxy would be difficult because it doesn't have a sharp edge. Cosmo0 15:43, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
THAT was precisely my point, that the calculation for volume, and definition of where in space the galaxy ends is not there. What defines the 'edge' of a star system? Probably extent of its gravitational field? The galaxy also has one, though I don't know how far that extends. Any object which is not trapped by this field would be outside of the galaxy and therefore all objects that are within this field are within the volume of the galaxy? Is this a correct assumption?--Mrg3105 03:15, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, I just wasn't sure whether you were criticizing something in the article or suggesting something new. What you describe would be a sensible way to define it and would give you essentially the volume within the virial radius of the dark matter halo (or something close to it). The virial radius defines the boundary between matter that is still collapsing onto the galaxy (outside the virial radius) and matter that is in dynamical equilibrium. Of course, that's difficult to measure directly, because it is much larger than the extent of the main stellar component and is dominated by the dark matter. It's been estimated (using some very complex theoretical modelling) to be around 200-300 kpc, but it's really not well constrained. Cosmo0 17:55, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Galactic magnetic field?

Can someone please ad a section or subheading for the galactic magnetic field, strength, how it's generated, etc? This seems to be a rather big oversight, unless I've completely missed it in the article. Mgmirkin (talk) 16:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Assume that most, if not all of the below references should be fairly non-controversial? If not, I'm sure someone could cite additional peer-reviewed sources such as Hannes Alfven's work.

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2001/RebeccaRudberg.shtml

http://www.aas.org/publications/baas/v29n2/aas190/abs/S024001.html

http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloadsCosmo/Peratt86TPS-I.pdf

http://public.lanl.gov/alp/plasma/downloadsCosmo/Peratt86TPS-II.pdf

http://focus.aps.org/story/v12/st24

http://csep10.phys.utk.edu/astr162/lect/milkyway/components.html Mgmirkin (talk) 16:26, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

The galactic magnetic field is measured mostly through polarization studies with maybe a little synchrotron thrown in. The best place to get reliable sources on the matter is from NASA Adsabs. ScienceApologist (talk) 17:23, 14 December 2007 (UTC)