Talk:Military rank

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[edit] Random Questions 1

Just a request, can you put a complete list of ranks, like private or surgeon. -- Taku 21:36 25 May 2003 (UTC)

I don't understand the differences between CO, NCOs and men. is there a international rule when ranks become officer ranks?


I also am not familiar with the ranks..I'm not sure if this touches on Taku's comment, but I would like to see a list of ranks for US forces (by branch, and including abbreviations) showing their "designation of authority/level of 'power'" ie LT = Lieutenent, CPT = Captain, Sgt = Sergeant, lowest rank, etc. --- perhaps something similar to the charts on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant but more descriptive Cargilcm (talk) 13:26, 25 March 2008 (UTC)Cargilcm

[edit] Chinese People's Liberation Army abolish rank

"The Chinese People's Liberation Army of the 1960s and 1970s is a rare example of a military which attempted (quite unsuccessfully) to abolish rank."

This is interesting --- but does anyone have a source for it? jdb ❋ (talk) 19:10, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)
Reminds me of the POUM, during the Spanish Civil war. They would vote their officers (no usual bu not unheard of), but also vote about unconsensual orders. We might elaborate on these "alternative" styles of military authority... Rama 07:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

In May 1965, the military grade and rank systems were officially abolished and replaced with the State administrative cadre (officer) rank system (guojia jiguan xingzheng ganbu jibie zhidu). Officers were called cadre (ganbu) and enlisted members were called soldiers (zhanshi). All military personnel wore the same hat (Mao hat with a red star) and plain red collar tabs...The only difference between a cadre and soldier was that a cadre’s jacket had four pockets and a soldier’s had only two breast pockets, and the material was different...[1]

...Along with these new emphases, Deng reduced the PLA's numbers by one million in 1985, restored ranks to the PLA in 1988 (Mao had abolished them in 1965)...[2]

...The year 1965 saw drastic changes in China's military organization and leadership. The impact of these changes upon strategic thought remains obscure. On 22 May, the system of ranks which had been in effect for a decade was abolished...[3]

Hope these help. SigPig 06:23, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

Many Colonial units in the US Revolutionary War elected their officers as well.--Counsel 18:26, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The Soviet Red Army also tried this, unsuccessfully, during its very early history. —Michael Z. 2006-02-22 19:42 Z

[edit] british commonwealth style warrant officers

The first table seems to say that a Battilion consists of "Staff adjutant or Second-in-Command". Why is the battilion column doubled there? Confusing.

Added a bit on british commonwealth style warrant officers, I'll try to re-write the entire section so it makes a bit more sense to non-americans, etc. --Halabut 05:36, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

I would tend to think that this articles suffers from a heavy US-leaning focus. Corrections to this are obviously welcome. Rama 07:54, 6 October 2005 (UTC)
Agreed. Especailly the section Rank, Rate and Classification. Where is this info from? "Rank" does not mean nor imply "authority"; "rank" means where you "rank" in the chain of command. "Classification?" Never heard of it. "Top Secret" is a classification; "Ordinary Seaman" is a rank. Also, appointment is basically one's office; a chief warrant officer (rank) may be a regimental sergeant major (appointment), or a major (rank) may be a commanding officer (appointment). Most NCOs I know never got any kind of "appointment certificate" when they got promoted; they usually got handed the bill for a round at the mess.
I think this section should go into hibernation until it can be clarified. Any thoughts? SigPig 05:40, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

In the US military, Lance Corporal or Private are ranks. Also, a warrant officer would not fill the billet of Seargent Major in the US military; a Sergeant Major would. in the US military only and elisted soldier or Marine would fill such a billet. Some of the article is British oriented and some is US oriented. I think the only way to solve this is to divide the info under separate British/Commonwealth Rank Structure and a separate one for US and another for any other country. Otherwise, a non-military reader from either side of the pond is going to be confused by the conflicting information.--Counsel 17:51, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] US v Commonwealth

In the US military, Lance Corporal or Private are ranks. Also, a warrant officer would not fill the billet of Seargent Major in the US military; a Sergeant Major would. in the US military only and elisted soldier or Marine would fill such a billet. There are other US-British differences throughout. Some of the article is British oriented and some is US oriented. I think the only way to solve this is to divide the info under separate British/Commonwealth Rank Structure and a separate one for US and another for any other country. Otherwise, a non-military reader from either side of the pond is going to be confused by the conflicting information.--Counsel 17:51, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Command Authority

The recent changes improved a little. Perhaps someone can explain the concept of "command authority" as used in this context. In the United States Marine Corps, a Lance Corporal would be superior to a Private and a Private First Class. Very often a lance corporal will be a Fire team leader (four marines) and would have the authority to issue lawful orders, as he stands in the shoes of the Platoon Commander, as it were. Is this the concept that is refered to there. Junior Marines are refered to as non-rates, but in determining who will lead in any situations, rank does matter. Even within a rank, an earlier promotion date would be significant.--Counsel 20:42, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Exhaustive List

I agree with Necrothesp that this is not an article intended to give an exhaustive list of ranks. The list as it stands, however, appears exhaustive with respect to British ranks, but is wrong with respect to US ranks. For instance, it lists Company (Grade) Officers on the ground side as Captain, Lieutenant, and Second Lieutenant. This is incorrect in the US. There exists no "Lieutenant" rank in the Army, Air Force, and Marines, however there is in the Navy. The Army/Marine/Air Force ranks include "First Lietenants" and "Second Lieutenants". The ranks listed for the Air Force simply do not exist in the outside of the UK. Have served as a U.S. Marine along side Royal Marines, I can attest to the fact that the differences are dizzying. We need to achieve some sort of generalized accuracy without duplicating the country specific rank structure articles. The fact that the list as it stands applies to the UK and not the rest of the world should be clarified in the article. I think that many of the ranks should be removed and links to the country specific articles provided.--Counsel 17:24, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

The standard for army company ranks is actually Captain and Lieutenant, in various forms. These, or something very similar, are pretty much universal, so the best solution is probably to remove Second Lieutenant entirely and simply say that there are various grades of Lieutenant (since some armies have more than two). For the Navy, grades of Lieutenant and/or Ensign are fairly universal. The air force ranks certainly do exist outside the UK - a number of Commonwealth air forces still use the same system. I think their inclusion is valid, as they are a well-known variation on the standard army-style ranks used by most other air forces. -- Necrothesp 17:39, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would agree that they are commonly used in western powers today, but an article titled merely "Military Rank" should apply to militaries in general. How much of the information would apply to Roman Legions or Mongol Armies. My point it that the article just seems a little to narrow.--Counsel 18:44, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. The section in question is headed "modern ranks"; hence it's quite feasible for it to deal with modern ranks (there is another section for Roman ranks - and the article certainly needs expansion). The fact is that these ranks are not just used by "western powers", but by almost all militaries, either in translation or direct borrowing or common rendering (e.g. the rank of "Captain" may not be used in, say, Vietnam in a form recognisable to English speakers, but if someone fluent in both English and Vietnamese translated the equivalent rank into English he would render it perfectly accurately as "Captain"). This article is meant to be generic - there are specific articles dealing with each country. I don't think there's any problem with pointing out in general terms the ranks used by almost every armed service in the world today. -- Necrothesp 00:51, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] English-language military terms from French-language origins

this is a list that comes in mind, must be other terms as well (like reconnaissance, aide de camps, transport, etc). Sources? check a dictionnaire -oops!- mean a dictionary.

  • rank: rang / army: armée / corps: corps (d'armée) / battalion: bataillon / company: companie / regiment: régiment / garrison: garnison / group: groupe / unity: unité / brigade: brigade / military: militaire / uniform: uniforme / troop: troupe / barrack: barraque / assault: assaut / siege: siège / class: classe / soldier: soldat / grenadier: grenadier / brigadier: brigadier / infantry: infanterie / artillery: artillerie / cavalry: cavalerie / marine: marine / officer: officier / marshal: maréchal / general: général / colonel: colonel / major: major / commander: commandant / captain: capitaine / lieutenant: lieutenant / sergeant: sergent / corporal: caporal / adjutant: adjudant / chief: chef

Shame On You 17:18, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

Remarks:
  • barrack: barraque (Note: in modern French, "barraque" is slang for "house"; "barracks" is said "caserne").
  • marine: marine — in French "marine" means "navy"; "marines", as in "Royal marines", are the infantrie de marine
  • major: major — major is a non-commissioned officers rank in the French navy, but is a senior officer rank some other French-speaking militaries, like the Swiss Army
  • sargeant: 'serre les rangs' - teh man who kept the lines tight and straight

There are some very strange statements here :- like the word colonel not existing pre-napoleonic times !! Dictionary .com and other etymological references suggest a date of first use around 1530-1540 and not 1790ish. Facius 00:16, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention the word lieutenant, which according to thefreedictionary .com is a Middle English word derived from Old French (hence c. 1400). The assertion that it came from the Napoleonic era is blatantly wrong: one just has to instance Lieutenant Bardolph from Shakespeare's Prince Hal plays. 71.129.81.136 14:06, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
But this is not really noticeable, a huge proportion of English words come from French anyway. Rama 08:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
cavalry: Italian cavalleria cavalry, chivalry, from cavaliere[4]
It must be pointed out that the heading is a bit (unintentionally) misleading. Most of these terms come to English via French, but they are not of French origin. The biggest chunk seem to come from Latin (where they had a comparable meaning), a few from Germanic, and even one from Catalan (barrack[5]) --SigPig 10:44, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

-Just a few things: I'm not fluent in french, however (on the list above,) I believe that 'classe', which I assume you are intending as,for example, a class of soldier, actually refers to, for example, the people participating in a classroom (class of children.) Also, why was 'unity' included in that list? Stev1233 05:41, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

I'm thinking that the author meant "unit" (not "unity"), the French for which is "unité". As for "classe", it also has the meaning of "class" or "level"; for example, in the Canadian Forces, a Petty Officer 1st Class is a maître de 1re classe. -- SigPig |SEND - OVER 07:42, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rank Mongols

I removed these statements until someone can provide reputable sources for them:

Field armies would normally consist of three tumens with attendant siege units grouped into independent minghans under a unified command staff led by an Orlok.[citation needed] In addition, the quartermasters of the Mongol armies carried the title of Yurtchi (a person in charge of yurts).[citation needed]

I left the arban/jagun/mingghan/tuman/ordu ranks, as there is little doubt about them (which doesn't mean they don't need references too). Please note that reference-free reprints of decades-old articles from SCA newsletters are not reputable sources. ➥the Epopt 22:00, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

ώ I thick you should compare all military ranks that are Modern ranks}}

[edit] "French" origin of military ranks

I have removed the following paragraph:

  • "Many English-language military ranks descend from three sources of French-language origins. From renaissance mercenary titles come corporal (as thought "corps man," but actually from French caporal, "chief"), sergeant ("servant"), captain ("head man"), and general (a shortening of the term "captain general"). From the era of the Napoleonic Wars came colonel (head of a column) and marshal ("stable manager")[citation needed]. From World War II come a number of specialist ranks."
  • "Corporal" originates in Italian caporale.[6]
  • "Sergeant" seems unclear, as its military rank context seems to originate in the 16th century, long after the establishment of the word in English. It originates in the meaning of "servant, soldier" from medieval Latin serviens.[7]
  • "Captain" originates from Late Latin capitaneus.[8]
  • "Colonel" originates from Italian colonello.[9]
  • "Marshal" originates in Germanic Frankish marahskalk.[10]

Only "general" seems to have a strictly French origin, altho' a case might also be made for marshal. While the rest of the terms (and indeed a goodly chunk of the whole English language) arrived via French at Hastings, it is incorrect to say the terms originated there. --SigPig |SEND - OVER 19:45, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of modern rank system?

Does anyone know when the modern system of ranks was developed? This article currently leaps from ancient times to modernity. I believe that if you go back to the English Civil War many, but not all, of the ranks were in existence. There was a Colonel Pride, anyway. But I think that at that time a rank would be purchased and not acquired through promotion. It would be good to know more about this. Itsmejudith 19:39, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have merged in most of the orphaned Ranks and units page, which covers a lot of the development of modern ranks. Anklefear 23:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for this. Itsmejudith 13:13, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Historical Naval Ranks

The Modern Ranks section covers all branches of the military, but in the Ancient and Medieval Ranks section, only the Greek Ranks sub-section even mentions ships at all, which were an important part of medieval warfare. 69.12.155.64 06:53, 18 August 2007 (UTC)