Talk:Military of the Democratic Republic of the Congo

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This article contains material from the CIA World Factbook (2003 edition) which, as a U.S. government publication, is in the public domain.
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Contents

[edit] Mi26

Is the Mi26 used by the DOC? QZXA2 16:31, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

According to the IISS Military Balance 2007, the Air Force has 1 Mi-26 Halo; the IISS usually puts a little mark next to the entry if the aircraft is unservicable, and there's nothing there. This means that it might be flying, which would be a bit of a surprise for the DRC. Buckshot06 09:02, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Article Sandbox/Workspace

  • The planned centres were to be at N’Zumu, in the 1st Military Region; at Kitona (2nd Military Region); at Bokala and Gbadolite in the 3rd Military Region of Equateur; at Katende in the 4th Military Region of Western Kasaï; at Katenda and Lucha in the 5th Military Region of Eastern Kasaï, at Kamina and Mura 6th Military Region of Kabanga, at Luama (Kindu) in the 7th Military Region of Maniema; in the 8th Military Region of North-Kivu at Mushaki (Goma) and Nyaleke (Beni); in the 9th Military Région of Lukusa at Bunia; in the 10th Military Région of South Kivu at Luberizi.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engAFR620012007?open&of=eng-COD

  • Point de situation du Brassage :

Le brassage de la 15ème Brigade intégrée s’est achevé et les 2837 hommes qui la composent attendent d’être déployés. Le brassage de la 16ème Brigade se poursuit pour les 4401 hommes présents au camp de Luberizi et devrait s’achever le 24 juin 2007. Enfin, à Kamina, 4139 hommes sont en attente du début du brassage de la 17ème Brigade. (MONUC, 29 May 2007, from http://fr.allafrica.com/stories/200705301111.html)

  • Resources: A key issue for the Congo's military is the lack of resources. The lack of money restricts the Military's capabilities by not allowing the Government to fund proper training, wages and weapons. This lack of resources has been an ongoing issue throughout Congolese history, despite its vast natural resources, due to inadequate governance and corruption, and increased since the U.S. cut support for the Mobutu government at the end of the Cold War. Most of the infrastructure which existed circa 1990 was destroyed during the two wars, thereby restricting the mobility and logistical ability of any new Congolese national military establishment.

[edit] ANC and FAZ

Is this article a suitable place to discuss the former Congolese National Army and Zairean Armed Forces? There is a Force Publique article that discusses the immediate post-independence era of the Congolese armed forces, but there seems to be a gap for the history of the forces under Mobutu. W. B. Wilson 15:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hi again Mr Wilson. I have been thinking this could be a good place to put details of the former FAZ and FAC etc, but I haven't started it; there's too much to fill in on the current situation which needs doing first. Cheers Buckshot06 15:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Greetings Buckshot06. I'll add a stub section noting the origins and pointing to the Force Publique article. Cheers, W. B. Wilson 16:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. I've just removed a redundant re-re-direct at the bottom of the FP article so it now points to this page directly. Buckshot06 16:47, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Done. It may not fit well as it is with the structure of the article so please edit it as required. Cheers, W. B. Wilson 17:19, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Informal review

Buckshot06 has asked me to do an informal review of this article. Because I'm a pushy jerk I've also done a copyedit as well. In general, I think that this article is off to a good start and can be expanded along its current lines to reach A/FA status. The choice of topics to cover seems good, and the assessment of the military is fair and draws on highly reliable sources. Some specific comments and suggestions are:

  • The overall structure of the military needs to be outlined upfront, even if this is currently very murky. For instance, the existence of an air force isn't mentioned until almost the end of the article and it's not mentioned whether the DRC currently or has ever had a navy or Army riverine force.
  • Can anything be said about the civilian organisations which support the military? Is there or has there been a department of defence or any local defence industries?
  • The presence of foreign troops and foreign military aid missions is mentioned in the introduction, but not in the body of the article. Sections on these topics would be great.
  • It might also be worth including a dedicated section on how the military is being rebuilt, as this is a little bit buried at present.
  • More citations are needed, especially to support and illustrate statements such as 'according to some internet references' - these references should be mentioned, especially when they contradict each other.
  • the term 'brassage' needs a definition
  • it might be worth including a map showing the DRC's provinces/regions as these are probably totally obscure for most people who read the article but are frequently mentioned in the article. This kind of thing tends to be frowned on for some reason though.
  • Is a reliable list of the Army's equipment available? - I suspect not, but if it is it would be worth including in some form.
  • Is the list of Chiefs of Staff complete? If not, this should be stated.
  • Has the Army played any role in DRC politics since Mobutu Sese Seko siezed power? - eg, did it play a role in supporting his rule and choosing his successors? --Nick Dowling 09:03, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Air Force aircraft and navy organisation

Information in the most recent Jane's publications conflicts slightly with with the information on the DRC's air force and navy in the article:

  • Jane's World Air Force's 2007 can only confirm that the air force has four aircraft in service (2 C-130, 1 DHC-5D, 1 Boeing 727) and a unknown number of Su-25s (no more than 8 in the air force's fleet following losses), C-47s, MB-326GBs and possibly some MiG-23s. It is also stated that the aircraft which aren't currently in service are generally in so poor a state that they couldn't possibly be repaired. I think that the table on the air force needs an extra column which draws on one or more of the available estimates of the Air Force's actual strength to highlight the fact that deliveries don't equal aircraft in service as is discussed in the article's text.
  • Jane's all the World's ships states that the navy is organised into four commands which in turn come under the command of the Army. The commands are: Matadi (coastal), Kinshasa (riverine), Kalemie (Lake Tanganyika) and Goma (Lake Kivu). Is this a better source to draw on than the source which states that there are 5 naval districts? - I have no real affection for Jane's (which suffers from sloppy and lazy editing IMO) so it's quite possible that this information is out of date or wrong. --Nick Dowling 03:27, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV

"this process is being hampered by corruption, the near-impotence of the government, and inadequate donor coordination." Doesn't seem very neutral. 207.138.98.253 (talk) 13:54, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It's cited and fair. The DRC is pretty chaotic. --Nick Dowling (talk) 23:55, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I would be interested if the contributor had a source that said otherwise. Neutral does not mean "nice," it simply means it represents various viewpoints rather than favoring a particular one. Not even the combatants themselves seem to be saying other than this. --Blechnic (talk) 00:45, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Other sources

This is a good article, and it was nice to see it on the main page of Wikipedia. But the authors missed tons of information about combatant forces in Central Africa published in scholarly economic and less scholarly business journals. Every issue of the various African economic journals I read carries something about DCR and usually about the fighting in the East because of the mineral riches of the area and current interests and activities in exploiting them. If you are interested in more information on this topic, try doing area-limited scholar and economic database searches. --Blechnic (talk) 06:46, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Brassage

Do you have an English language source that uses this word? And "mixage?" Can you quote specific passages that show this is the proper use in English of this word? It makes sense in context in translation when translated from the French, but not when used in English. It seems you are just discussing the various stages of disarmament in DRC, but then it seems only the final stage every time this word is used. It is very confusing. --Blechnic (talk) 23:48, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I can find it used as "brassage center" also, but this seems also just to be pidgin. --Blechnic (talk) 23:52, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Brassage is indeed the final step of the DDR process; it is the integration of up to six factions' troops within a new integrated brigade. As used in English, it is all over the DDR/technical literature, but if you want a specific cite, see Cite 31, the 2006 International Crisis Group SSR report. The 2006 ICG report, which I believe I linked in the bibliography, is the best single source for the FARDC. For mixage's use in English, see Cites 32 and 33. Happy further reading! Buckshot06 (talk) 03:07, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
Actually, reintegration is the final step in English, of the DDR process, whether mixage or brassage . I downloaded Cite 31, the ICG SSR report and they do not have a single instance of "brassage," but do use the terms integration and reintegration a total of 80 times. [1] Citation 32[2] uses the term a single time in italics because it is a foreign word in English (it's archaic and means something completely different in English than its meanings in French). In citation 33 "brassage" is used 13 times and italicized each time to indicate that it is a foreign term, not English.[3] "Mixage" is likewise usually italicized, although, once in block capitals it is not.
This is an English language general encyclopedia and its readers should be able to look up words in an English language dictionary, but in this instance they cannot because it is a French word with Congolese militaristic jargon nuances. As it is used in the security sector it can be used and defined in the article, but since it is jargon, it should be rigidly defined, and probably the English word should be used instead in most instances. The military and private security communities and international aid communities extensively use jargon and mixed-language jargon in particular because they work in unusual circumstances and in mixed command groups. I've sat around with people and had conversations in of English, French, Italian and German with admixtures of single words that serve their purposes across all languages. As it stands in this article, though, rather than explaining what is going on, the article simply leaves the English language reader wondering what is meant by brassage. Going to a dictionary is useless.
Please consider clarifying by simply using the terms integration and reintegration, and putting brassage in italics like your sources do, and explaining that the process of reintergration is either of putting Nkunda's troops into the FARDC or of breaking up fighting units after disarming and demobilizing and building a newly integrated army out of troops once heavily divided along ethnic, political and regional lines. This gives the reader the definition of these terms, along with their proper usage in the securities sector, and explains what is going on with the reintegration of troops in the DCR to form a single fighting force for the current government. Rather than what is happening in the article now where the use of the term brassage clouds out the actual content, and appears to fail to grasp the meaning. --Blechnic (talk) 04:35, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I'll italic-erise it, and work through your other recommendations. Of course, you're correct, reintegration is the final DDR step; I was meaning the final step for those destined for the FARDC. How do those changes look? Buckshot06 (talk) 05:25, 6 April 2008 (UTC)