Talk:Military of Switzerland

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military training is not viewed as a temporary horror, but as a continuing set of enjoyable patriotic activities.

The question here is BY WHOM?

The result is a safer soldier with more skills

NPOV?

However, Swiss mothers still teach their children that freedom grows from the guns of free men.

Who wrote this?

-- Stw 23:18, 5 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Suicide/murder

Should be noted that the tradition of swiss soldiers bringing their guns home has caused an alarming amount of suicides and murders... which is increasing. Should this be considered a military or civilian matter?

-G

This should be considered as a fairy tale. This point is discussed in switzerland right now and the dispute is strongly political. But an alarming amount of […] murders is far from being realistic – Switzerland is one of the safiest countries in the world. The amount of sucides is more controversial, but no official statistics do exist. For a comparison: More than 60% of all Swiss men between 20 and 30 have received an semi-automatic rifle, a total of 220'000 armed men, plus an unknown number of veterans who can keep their rifle, if they want (last year, about 20% of the decruited men kept their rifle). On a total population of 7,415 million, there were 17 murders and 61 manslaughters as per penal law in the year 2005 (Source: “Taschenstatistik der Schweiz 2007”, Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft [1]). This corespondents to a rate of 0,23 murders and 0,82 manslaughters per 100'000 persons, which is, however, amazingly few when compared to 6 murders per 100'000 persons for the U.S. in 2005 [2]. In my personal opinion, the whole discussion is just one big exaggeration. Furthermore it is obvious that the debate has been launched by socialists and other left-winged forces, the same who want to abolish conscripition or even the whole Swiss Army. Don't be afraid, come and visit Switzerland in you holidays ;-) --CHamul 07:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Further note: of this 17 murders and 61 manslaugthers, most were NOT comited with the personal arms of Swiss Military personel.Once or twice a year such a case gains notority, and is all over the media, but mostly I wouldn't say the firearms or the army is ´responsible´ for the murder.
Last year we had a case, where a complete nutcase shot a girl after completing its military service. Both sides had their field day: the left-wingers and anti-army-groups blamed the army and Swiss weapon law. On the other hand, the right-wingers and anti-imigration-groups focused more on the nationality of the recruit, since he was Chilenian by descent. If the case weren't so sad and so discraseful to our army, you could think it was a joke or something: all this "Swiss with Chilenian Roots" on all the headlines...In the end the newspapers didn't know any more if they are against the army or against immigrations and tried to spin the story both ways. (Or that's at least my opinion).Halbwolf23:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

There's a link in this section to the AAD, a new SAS type division, but the disambiguation page it links to has nothing about Switzerland. Whoever put the link on there, could you please fix the link, remove it, or create a new page for it as you see fit? Archtemplar 17:43, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

I have reworked the Discussion bit. I hope it is better now. I have removed the following only because I am unable to verify it:

Swiss doctrine is "Total Resistance." The Swiss plan to destroy their country totally rather than give it to an invader. Surrender is legally impossible.

In addition, I have removed the following, because I do not think it belongs into an article on the military.

New federal gun control legislation was passed in 1997. Restrictive licensing is required for pistols and machine-guns, but the law has numerous exceptions for semiautomatic rifles of the types used by the military and shooting clubs. Arms remain relatively easy to obtain.

Maybe there is someone out there who has served the Swiss military who can help out? Kokiri 22:04, 7 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's much better now, thanks a lot. I made some minor changes to it. I have served in the Swiss army, but I didn't really enjoy it, so I don't have a big knowledge. What I didn't write in the article was the fact that there exists two kinds of civilian service: "Zivildienst" and "Zivilschutz", one is for the men who are not fit enough for the military service, the other is, as stated in the article, for those who are fit enough but don't want to kill people :-). For both of them you'll have to pay 2% of your income. But don't ask me which one is which! -- Stw 18:23, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Oh, I know that ;-) Zivildienst is for those with a conscience, Zivilschutz for those not fit enough. Kokiri 22:57, 8 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It's kind of stupid and insultant calling those who serve in the swiss army conscienceless in general. And If, as you say yourself you don't know very much about it, you better shut up than play a moral instance.

Goniometer --85.0.170.70 22:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

Swiss doctrine is "Total Resistance." The Swiss plan to destroy their country totally rather than give it to an invader. Surrender is legally impossible.

The illegality of surrender was pointed out in the old Constitution; it seems to have been removed during the new revision.

[edit] A little controversy about ranks?

A Rank Controversy?

Cyrill, if you check out general ranks, all Western Armies use the star system even if the actual insignia worn is different. In this system, a brigadier general (called Brigadier in the British, Swiss and French armies) is a one-star general, a major general (Divisionaer in the Swiss Army) a two-star, a lieutenant general (Korpskommandant in the Swiss Army) a three-star, and a full general (and yes, that's exactly what they are called officially, 'full generals' :))a four-star general. Cyrill, I've spent 12 years so far in the Swiss Army, graduated number two in my general staff and command college class and have been on several exchange programs to other armies, so believe me when I say I know what I am talking about. Don't take my word for it, however; checking with any Army headquarters or asking any higher officer of any Western Army (plus the Russian) will easily confirm this. So please stop using the 'four-edelweiss general' bit; it's just plain ridiculous. :)

Hell, if you insist. Though I would not advise calling a French Général de brigade a bridadier. He might not take it kindly... I always thought the "star" designation was a bit of a colloquial thing. I can hardly see me saluting a brigadier with "général une étoile". But apparently you are the expert, so I will revert to stars. CyrilleDunant 10:15, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
Actually, note that I am in fact still unhappy about the "four star general" thing. Yes, of course the comparative rank (in terms of the structure of command under him) is that of a US four star general, and Brigadiers, Divisonnaires and Commandants de Corps are comparatively 1, 2 and 3 star generals. Still, the wording is unfortunate as it suggests that suddenly you get those as "generals". Which they cannot be (unless they somehow also happen to be ambassadors to korea). Because there is a single "général" (it is not a question of rank but of title). The others are collectively "officiers généraux" -- but again, not "generals".
This is what I was trying to highlight : the meaning of "general" here corresponds to a unique rank (the general officer with four edelweiss), but also a unique function (chief of the army in time of war). This is in fact different from a four-star general which is not necessarily the head of staff. It is, in fact equivalent to OF-10. it would be equivalent to a "five-star" general...
well, the ranks are not expressed in terms of "stars" in Switzerland. The Swiss expression "General" corresponds to NATO OF-9, The Brigadier corresponds to OF-6. OF-6 are called 'one-star Generals' in other armies, but not in Switzerland. So the 'i.e. 4-stars' is really mistaken here. The Swiss expression is "Gerenral", the international comparison is OF-9, and the four stars don't enter into it either way. dab (ᛏ) 14:47, 28 August 2005 (UTC)


[edit] removed false statement

The statement that was removed by me contains two false or misleading statements: first there is not a fully automatic assault rifle (or any other kind of rifle/gun) in EVERY household in Switzerland, but merely in those in which there is one (or several) active serving member(s) of the swiss military, or the (few) one who chose, asked and where deemed as fit, to retain such a weapon in there homes after retirement from armed service. Second, even though Switzerland does not have a staggeringly high crime rate, claiming that in Switzerland "some time periods have no crime rate at all" is totatally disingenuous because "some time periods" is not defined. If we talk minutes or hours or even in some case days, that statement might be true but formulated as it is, it gives the false impression that Switzerland is some kind of a crime ridden Shangri-la, (which it isn't, but gun-totting simpletons, mainly in the USA, just love to use that over-simplified argument "lots'a weapons = low crime rate" about Switzerland to push their agenda). Oh yes, and there aren't any official statistics about murders committed with army issued guns in Switzerland (my guess about why this is so is as good as yours). Moumine 22:40, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mirage

Mirage (Fighter and Reconaisseurs) are not in service anymore in the swiss airforce. Goniometer

[edit] Swiss Special Forces - Some help please

Hi, I was reading the article, and the author mentions something about the AAD, Switzerland's new SAS-type Special Forces unit. However, I cannot find any reference to this on Google, or even on Wikipedia. Could someone help me out please? Thanks. --Tom Black 11:05, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi, here is the link to their official homepage; the German wikipedia contains a small article. 193.74.151.194 09:00, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yugoslavia

Is the Swiss doctrine similar to that of the Military of Yugoslavia (Tito-era)?

[edit] section popular culture

"only officers are allowed to carry the knife with the opener"

As a conscript I've never been told that I'm not allowed to carry a wine opener. Maybe it stands somewhere in the "Réglement de Service", but I doubt it. 128.178.26.187 14:32, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't. I checked. It's also not in the "Bekleidungsvorschriften" or in the "Brevier". However, the one with the wine opener is coloquially called "Offiziersmesser" (="Officers knives"), which might have given rise to this misconception. ;-) Every ADA (Member of the Swiss Army) regardles of rank is issued the same knive wihout wine opener, but may privatly purchase and use in service any knive which fits the regulations, includinge those with wine opener, usb stick or nose hair scissor.... `[User:Halbwolf|Halbwolf] Halbwolf (talk) 23:47, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Liechtenstein

OK, I can't find anything about it, but is Switzerland obligated by treaty to provide military defense services for Liechtenstein? The CIA World Fact book (see this link) indicates so, but I can't find much else about it. Streltzer 01:36, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm 25 years old and I spent my whole life in Switerland - but I never heard something of "Switzerland defending Liechtenstein"; and I'm sure that no citizen of Liechtenstein does serve in any army. The CIA people might have been confused, that in fact, there is a customs union treaty between Switzerland and Liechtenstein (there's no real border); and some of the laws the Swiss parliament enacts are used in Liechtenstein too – for just 34'000 inhabitants, nobody creates a bureau for motor vehicle safety control, for example. The Liechtenstein article states:
The Army was disbanded already in 1868, out of financial considerations.
Until the First World War, Liechtenstein was an ally of Austria-Hungary. In the Second World War, Liechtenstein declared itself neutral, but such a small country could not have been defended either way against the German army.--Keimzelle 22:52, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Switzerland is under no such obligation. The prince would in principle be authorized to order a mobilization in times of crisis, but this is of course hypothetical. dab (ᛏ) 14:00, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Organization of Military

I am confused as the difference between regular Swiss conscripts and the reserves. When is does a soldier in the militia become a reservist? I would appriciate any information in this matter, thank you.

A soldier in the militia becomes a reservist as soon as he has passed a certain amount of days in the army. For the time being (2007), these are 300 days for a private (150 days basic training, and 7 annual repetition courses, each about 20 days/year), 430 days for a sergeant (longer basic training, 7 repetition courses, each about 24 days/year), and 600 days for a lieutenant (still longer basic trainings and repetition courses). Higher ranked officers stay in duty as and when required. So, privates and sergeants serve in active duty at least until they are 27 years old, (but in practice rather until 30, since courses can be postponed for important job, health or family reasons) and stay in the reserve until the age of 34. Until 1994, as a relict of the cold war, one had to serve up to the age of 45 and was kept in the reserve until 55 (I'm not totally sure about these last two numbers, but it was much more than nowadays). Being a reservist, one still has to care for the rifle, the uniform and other equipment, but has not to go to the training courses anymore. --CHamul 20:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Invasion of Liechtenstein

On March 1, 2007, Switzerland accidentally invaded the neighbouring nation of Liechtenstein. This happened when a Swiss Army unit took a wrong turn during a training exercise. [3] Both countries immediately dismissed the incident despite the 170 armed Swiss troops which marched across the border into the neighboring country. The incident will most likely be forgotten in history, but it is the only example of aggression from either European country in modern history.

Where in this article should this little tidbit be mantioned, if at all? CeeWhy2 11:35, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not even sure that counts as an invasion, they didn't make a declaration of war, and they were there by accident. Looks more like a wrong turn than an invasion. All-though it is pretty interesting, it doesn't seem worthy of entry in the article. PBGuardsman 03:16, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Active troops number

Two articles: List of countries by number of active troops and List of countries by size of armed forces put the number of active troops in Switzerland at 3,000-4,000 only, as compared to 220,000 in this article. Can someone verify and correct? --Vsion 18:46, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

Although the swiss army is conscription based (which gives the 200'000 number, 180'000 active and 20000 reserve), there is a small cadre of professional personal, a few thousand strong). Traditionally, the professionals fell in three categorys: Professional Officers (either employed in training positions or staff positions) Professional NonComs (employed in training positions) Festungswachtkorps (Fortress Guard Corps, mainting and guarding fixed installations, other security related tasks).

Those two numbers are often confused, as the professional arm constitutes the permanently standing part of the army, while the conscripts man the regular units and are only called up 3-4 weeks per year.

  Nik

[edit] Age of serving soldiers

I'm 34 and still in the force as simple soldier until December. 34 is the age limit. Nmacpherson 14:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No mention of Afghanistan?!

[4] 205.228.74.13 (talk) 10:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)