Talk:Military history of the peoples of Britain

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UK Collaboration of the Fortnight Military history of the peoples of Britain was the UK Collaboration of the Fortnight for the fortnight starting on October 31, 2004.

For details on improvements made to the article, see Past Collaborations and History
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    Sugges ordering this:

    • Prehistoric Britain
    • Roman Britain
    • Mediæval Britain
    • Early Modern Britain
    • Modern Britain

    Like the history colum on the right? Or, it might be worth combining Roman with pre-Roman as there doesn't seem to be much there, and spliting medieval, where there's loads? We could then have more in depth subpages for each of those? Joe D (t) 13:29, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    Yes - I suggest we start with 4 sections (Pre-Roman and Roman; Mediaeval; Early Modern and Modern) and sub-divide them when the text gets large enough to warrant it. We may need, for example, Hundred Years' War, Wars of the Roses, Napoleonic Wars, Wars of Empire, WWI and WWII, but let's see what we get. Some of the lists will need to be floated off to new pages - e.g. List of British wars/List of British battles; List of British military alliances; List of British military fortifications. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:08, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

    I was working on wikifing some poetry written by Ruyard Kipling with lots of British Imperial military references. All the campaigns I have looked for except the Sudanese are listed on theis page. The first Expeditionary Force against the Mahdist Jihad, 1882-85 and the later second Expeditionary Force employed in the Reconquest of the Soudan, 1886-89. The only mention I find of this at all is in the article on Muhammad Ahmad. If anyone can make a proper article on the Sudan campaigns please let me know on my talk page so I can update the poetry on Wikisource. Thank you --BirgitteSB (Talk) 20:18, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

    Contents

    [edit] Auld Alliance

    I've largely rewritten the section on the Franco-Scottish alliance to eliminate factual errors and grammatical solecisms. The errors in point of fact are;

    1. The first formal written treaty between France and Scotland was concluded in October 1295. There were never any arrangements for mutual defence between the two nations prior to this date. William the Lion's involvement in the dispute between Henry II and Louis VII was inspired by his attempt to lay claim to Northumberland. This, incidentally, does not date to 1165.

    2. Norway was never part of the Auld Alliance. A thing can only become 'auld'-old-with the passage of time. By the time the Scots started to refer to the treaty with France in such terms any past associations with Norway were long forgotten.

    3. The Hundred Years War-which began in 1337 not 1336-had nothing at all to do with Philip's aid for Scotland in the early 1330s. David II did not 'flee' to France-he was only a child-but was taken there by the Earl of Moray in 1334 at the invitation of King Philip. David was not 'deposed' by Edward III; he had been effectively displaced in 1332 by Edward Balliol. Edward later recognised Balliol as the rightful king of Scotland, though no mention was ever made of David Bruce.

    4. The Auld Alliance as such did not start the First War of Independence, or can 'be said to have inflamed' the English invasion of Scotland, because the full terms of the treaty were not known to them in the spring of 1296.. Edward I invaded because John Balliol was in breach of feudal law, refusing to send troops to join the English army.

    5. David invaded England to aid his ally in 1346; but it was very much in his own 'interests', not those of King Philip.

    6. The very minor Battle of Bauge can hardly be referred to as a 'crushing' defeat for the English.

    7. The Treaty of Edinburgh ended the alliance because by this time France was perceived as the greater threat to Scottish liberty. Scotland most definitely did not 'consider itself Protestant' by this treaty, which deals with diplomatic and military issues. Scotland became formally Protestant by act of Parliament in the same year. Rcpaterson 23:59, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Turkish War of Independence.

    Why on earth was this included in Britain's modern conflicts??? It suggests that the country actually fought against the forces of Kemal Pasha, which is most assuredly not the case. The closest the two countries came to open conflict was during the Chanak crisis. Rcpaterson 00:10, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] Additional Amendments

    The other errors and misconceptions I've identified here are as follows;

    1. It is a myth to say that 1066 was the last successful invasion of England by a foreign force. The country has been invaded-sucessfully-too many times to list in detail. The last such invasion was the arrival of William of Orange in 1688.

    2. The First War of Scottish Independence concluded in 1328 with the Treaty of Northampton, not 1306.

    3. There was no Anglo-Scottish war from 1513 to 1547, but two quite distinct phases of warfare, the first in 1513 with a possible extension to 1514; and the second from 1544 to 1551.

    4. As with the above there was no fifty year Jacobite Rebellion, as the dating given suggested. There are, rather, four seperate and quite distinct phases of rebellion-1689-1691; 1715-16; 1719; 1745-46.

    5. Scotland was not part of the Franco-Venetian alliance. Her involvement in the War of the League of Cambrai was quite incidental. James IV's invasion of England in 1513 was in response to an appeal from France, under attack by Henry VIII.

    6. The Triple Entente of 1908 was not an alliance and it did not bring Britain into the First World War. British involvement was in reaction to the Germany's invasion of Belgium, a breach of the 1839 Treaty of London.

    Finally I have serious reservations about the Anglo-Portuguese alliance still being 'in force.' Did British use of the Azores in 1982 really have anything to do with this alliance? I would also be pleased to know in what way Portugal aided her ally during the Second World War? Rcpaterson 01:11, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


    [edit] Germany

    Shouldn't all the pre-German Wars of Reunification references to Germany be Prussia? --Narson 21:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

    You are quite right to point out that there is no 'Germany' as such until the late ninteenth century. The term is probably being used here in a collective sense; for though Prussia was the chief German power in the various conflicts mentioned, they also involved-to a greater or lesser extent-some of the more minor states like Bavaria, Hanover and Saxony. Rcpaterson 22:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

    Though the small nations didn't really fight in any meaningful sense, as shown by their absense in any of the descriptions on Wikipedia. Same way we don't include the Kingdom of Naples in the napoleonic wars. --Narson 09:53, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

    [edit] British military??

    why British? what about England's own history not the union? Also did you noticed the British military and French military articles are totally different, one is a (non-neutral) text the other is made of lists... the English version about French military is twice the size of the French version while this British article here in the English version is just a list. The French army's English article is just a stub while its history article is a super long article... something's wrong here. Shame On You 04:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

    My dear friend, if the French article on British history is poor and their article is longer then ours, well then that just means that they are arrogant and now you know why the lost...the Napoleanoic wars, the Franco-Prussian wars, World War 1, World War 2... 160.227.129.254 17:44, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

    [edit] Stonehenge

    Stonehenge image has absolutely nothing to do with British military history. So what if its part of British history; you could put up a picture of a British destroyer or perhaps a picture of Richard the Lionheart. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.227.129.254 (talk) 17:45, 28 February 2007 (UTC).

    [edit] United Kingdom and Chile Alliance

    Chile colaborated with british forces in the 1982 Falklands War. It must be in the Alliance section. (84.76.37.212 23:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC))

    [edit] name change?

    I've just come across this article - I'm immediately surprised by it because I expected the military history of the last few hundred years (the length of time the United Kingdom has existed) but instead this article goes back way before the creation of the UK. Can I suggest a name change to 'British military history'? Either than or we should cut the article down to military history during the period the United Kingdom has existed. Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 15:05, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

    This name is almost like a reductio ad absurdum against changing the name. I mean, what the hell is this title?!
    It is convention that articles are organised by current country. Whilst it is perhaps encyclopaedic to have other articles (say, about 'Military history of south Asia', 'Military history of the Middle East', 'Military history of Prussia', etc) that defy current country organisation, the article for the country's history itself should cover all history for that territory, including prior to the formation of the relative state (in this case, in 1801).
    This is the convention elsewhere. General history articles of that ilk abound. Military histories exist of Germany, Romania, Italy, Croatia, United States, Canada, South Africa, Zimbabwe, India, etc that go back beyond the formation of the current state. 'Military history of the United Kingdom' is an appropriate name.
    An even better solution would be to rename this 'Military history of the British Isles', and then create a new article focused on the United Kingdom (i.e. since 1801). However, until the latter is done, I suggest that the former is not, as (as stated above) the country categorisation is primary. Bastin 01:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
    Hi there. So "Military histories exist of Germany, Romania, Italy, Croatia, United States, Canada, South Africa, Zimbabwe, India, etc that go back beyond the formation of the current state". Well I just checked United States and the opening line of the article states, "The military history of the United States spans a period of over two centuries." I thought the USA was perhaps a good example to check as it is similar to the UK in being a political union with a clear starting point when the 13 states first 'got together'. (The UK, similarly, started when two countries - Scotland and England - joined in political union in 1707, a political entity later joined by Ireland in 1801 though most of Ireland later left the Union in 1922.) Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 15:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
    You clearly did not check that article thoroughly enough. It starts with 'over two centuries' - which means just that: over two centuries. That is, by the most stringent definition, it is at least two centuries old. Then, the article precedes to establish that, under its definition, it is considerably longer, as it covers 'Colonial Wars' and the American Revolutionary War, both before independence (that is, the former entirely and the latter partly). If you want to copy that article, you can put in the introduction 'The military history of the United Kingdom spans a period of over two centuries', then explain that whilst the country was created in 1801, the military history of its predecessors would receive a treatment: which, of course, you'd then give it.
    To clarify, the United Kingdom was founded in 1801. The Kingdom of Great Britain (founded in 1707) was a predecessor country, just as the Kingdom of Ireland was. Bastin 18:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
    Hi there, and thanks for the reply. Though we may disagree about the date the UK was formed, I think we agree that some degree of prior information may be relevant. However, I wouldn't expect to read about some battle that took place in the 1300's 'in the USA' because the USA didn't exist then! By the way, I notice that the military history of Israel only deals with the last century - what about all the battles that happened over previous centuries? Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 18:31, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
    The absence in the case of Israel is almost certainly due to the fact that Israel is a relatively contentious issue. There are additional complicating factors, too; were you to call it 'Military history of the peoples of Israel', you'd find that most peoples of Israel have immigrated over the past century, and that millions have left Israel during the same period. It is safe to assume that Israel is in a tiny minority, and doesn't represent the convention that is usually applied.
    Taking a more comprehensive look, it becomes obvious what the convention is. Amongst European countries:
    Covers pre-establishment history: Armenia, Austria*, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Italy, Netherlands, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Serbia, Slovenia, Spain, Sweden
    Covers only since establishment: Switzerland, Republic of Macedonia*, Turkey
    I suggest that 18 to 3 is a relatively conclusive result. Bastin 18:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
    Yes, I concede the majority do follow the pattern you describe, but the UK is quite unique in that it was formed by the political union of two previously independent countries. (I can't think of other examples of political unions like the UK - if you can, let me know and it will be interesting to see what it says in that country's article.) Cheers Fishiehelper2 (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2008 (UTC)